Powervision Pro Question

[rbabos]

Somewhat confused on how this plays out after tuning. So, with Pro, it uses a 13.0 AFR to dial in the ve's. When done tuning the modified cal is loaded into the ECM and all disbled features are now enabled. The Afr table returns to normal, which is mostly 14.6. If the stock NB sensors are reinstalled, I see conflict here. Is the proper procedure to disable closed loop within the map before the final tuned cal is loaded back into the ECM? I've seen no mention regarding this. Other question is , is the AT100B, for J1850 normally used with PCV the same module used now for Powervision Pro tuning?
Ron

[hrdtail78]

Somewhat confused on how this plays out after tuning. So, with Pro, it uses a 13.0 AFR to dial in the ve's. When done tuning the modified cal is loaded into the ECM and all disbled features are now enabled. The Afr table returns to normal, which is mostly 14.6. If the stock NB sensors are reinstalled, I see conflict here. Is the proper procedure to disable closed loop within the map before the final tuned cal is loaded back into the ECM? I've seen no mention regarding this. Other question is , is the AT100B, for J1850 normally used with PCV the same module used now for Powervision Pro tuning?
Ron

Seems like this is from 2011?  The feature that makes the speed density superior is that in theory.  Once you map the air flow through the engine by means of the VE table.  Any change to the target table should be easy calculated and produce the new target with accurate results.  This of coarse is reliant on other data.  Injector size, cu inch, Air temp, MAP, engine temp.......   All should be perfect if this is also perfect data.

If you are going to install stock sensors and allow these sensors to control trims.  Closed loop needs to be active.  If closed loop is shut off.  Why install the sensors?  BUT mapping VE is one sensor and then installing another sensor to control trims, conflict?  We use the WB to collect voltage that we turn into a o2 reading.  We compare actual to target.  Find the percent difference and add or subtract that percent.  With a NB sensor.  We are using the voltage out put of the sensor as a mode switching point in the ECU.  The ECU is in rich mode or lean mode while in closed loop.  I suggest mapping the VE areas that you will be in closed loop with the sensors that are going to control the ECU during closed loop.  The ECU is gonna win anyway.  Can the Delphi trim the closed loop area with NB with out mapping VE's with them?  Sure but with adaptive fueling.  The small changes that are needed from going to one sensor to the next.  Will also be applied to areas that were mapped correctly with the WB sensors.

Even back in 2011.  When I saw post about tune drifts, how closed loop didn't work, you can't map with nb, adaptation tables, my IAC needs relocated,  I blame the same thing I blamed today.  Incorrectly mapped VE tables.

the AT100 with work with Vision.  BUT you can set up the target table as you plan on running down the road and collect data with other products.  95% of my vision/ SE calibration data is logged by TTS or DTT.

[rbabos]

I find some interesting info here but Powervision Pro doesn't work quite like that. When you choose Pro option it converts the afr table in the cal to 13-1 or something like that. The widebands dial the ve table into that requested afr through several exports as needed. Unlike say Target tune, which is a full closed loop system,  Pro is not a closed loop system so when tuned, the sensors serve no purpose. Leaving them installed and no further datalogging it's essentially an open loop tune. So you remove the module and wb sensors and plug the hole back up with the stock nb sensors. Seems to me having the nb sensors back on the bike and leaving it in closed loop will cause problems after sending the none datalog cal back into the ECM.It will have the original AFR table but with ve from the 13-1 wb exports.  Logically it should remain in open loop as in turn the closed loop off? I'm personally not a fan of PRO and have never used it. This is more of a fact finding mission or nuts and bolts on PRO wideband tuning.
Ron 

[Coyote]

I always tuned the open loop areas with the wide band sensors (AT Pro). Then did an AT Basic to collect the closed loop areas and merged the tables. Not sure why you would leave it in open loop.

[rbabos]

That to me is the most intelligent method. It's what I would do, either Pro and TT just to get all that crap off the bike when done typical open loop ranges NB can't deal with. Based on how the product is advertised there is on mention of this. So the average person using PRO and when the stock NB sensors reinstalled with no additional closed loop tuning, like you, I and half the tuning world would do,  should the closed loop be turned off?
This is only curiosity on my part.
Ron

[Jamie Long]

Commanded AFR/lambda is a primary lookup; so if VE is established/synced to a commanded 13.0 AF when the table is then changed for example to say 14.6 or 12.0 the ECM should accurately deliver the proper injector PW based on the commanded AF however the further you deviate from the AF target the wider range of potential error, but this could also be said about many other aspects of the tune not to mention how the overall operating conditions affect the tune. Another consideration is when the commanded AFR/Lambda is changed it can affect other functions such as closed loop and potentially DFCO, etc..

When you enable AT Pro with Power Vision it temporarily sets the AF table to 13.0, turns off acc enrichment, and disables closed loop. We've found this to be a very accurate and consistent method of tuning using the Dynojet hardware. When you develop your corrections and export learned the AF and other tables are set back to however they were configured in the base tune. We've found in good practice once you've established your tune with the wideband sensors we recommend running back thru the tune and either logging closed loop operation with the factory sensors to validate everything is working/operating properly, or running the Auto Tune Basic application thru the closed loop region of your tune; either way will give you full visibility to what closed loop is doing and you can make any necessary edits or adjustments.

[Jamie Long]

That to me is the most intelligent method. It's what I would do, either Pro and TT just to get all that crap off the bike when done typical open loop ranges NB can't deal with. Based on how the product is advertised there is on mention of this. So the average person using PRO and when the stock NB sensors reinstalled with no additional closed loop tuning, like you, I and half the tuning world would do,  should the closed loop be turned off?
This is only curiosity on my part.
Ron

No reason to turn closed loop off. With AT Pro you would remove the AT hardware and wideband sensors when you are finished tuning, closed loop runs off the factory sensors. Target Tune equipped bikes leaves the controller in place and uses the wideband sensors for closed loop.

[rbabos]

Commanded AFR/lambda is a primary lookup; so if VE is established/synced to a commanded 13.0 AF when the table is then changed for example to say 14.6 or 12.0 the ECM should accurately deliver the proper injector PW based on the commanded AF however the further you deviate from the AF target the wider range of potential error, but this could also be said about many other aspects of the tune not to mention how the overall operating conditions affect the tune. Another consideration is when the commanded AFR/Lambda is changed it can affect other functions such as closed loop and potentially DFCO, etc..

When you enable AT Pro with Power Vision it temporarily sets the AF table to 13.0, turns off acc enrichment, and disables closed loop. We've found this to be a very accurate and consistent method of tuning using the Dynojet hardware. When you develop your corrections and export learned the AF and other tables are set back to however they were configured in the base tune. We've found in good practice once you've established your tune with the wideband sensors we recommend running back thru the tune and either logging closed loop operation with the factory sensors to validate everything is working/operating properly, or running the Auto Tune Basic application thru the closed loop region of your tune; either way will give you full visibility to what closed loop is doing and you can make any necessary edits or adjustments.

I agree. On this statement="When you develop your corrections and export learned the AF and other tables are set back to however they were configured in the base tune."  I understand the AF and other disabled tables revert back to base cal config but the only difference is the VE tables remain to what Pro set them to at 13.0 AFR, correct?
Ron

[Jamie Long]

I agree. On this statement="When you develop your corrections and export learned the AF and other tables are set back to however they were configured in the base tune."  I understand the AF and other disabled tables revert back to base cal config but the only difference is the VE tables remain to what Pro set them to at 13.0 AFR, correct?
Ron

When you export learned and the PV device generates the new tune the only deltas from the base tune you started with will be the (corrected) VE tables.
The VE tables represent the airflow model, once VE is established the ECM can accurately control "effective" AF dynamically from the AFR/Lambda and other fuel related lookup tables.

[hrdtail78]

I find some interesting info here but Powervision Pro doesn't work quite like that. When you choose Pro option it converts the afr table in the cal to 13-1 or something like that. The widebands dial the ve table into that requested afr through several exports as needed.

We use the WB to collect voltage that we turn into a o2 reading.  We compare actual to target.  Find the percent difference and add or subtract that percent. 

What do you think the auto programs do?  How do you hand map VE's? 

however the further you deviate from the AF target the wider range of potential error,

This is part of tuning.  Lowering the potential of error.  Most of the pro tuners I talk with.  Don't use the programs in the vision.  Set the target table as you are going down the road and collect data with something like DTT or TTS.  Since big target jumps aren't needed.  This will lower the potential for error. 

[rbabos]

I agree. On this statement="When you develop your corrections and export learned the AF and other tables are set back to however they were configured in the base tune."  I understand the AF and other disabled tables revert back to base cal config but the only difference is the VE tables remain to what Pro set them to at 13.0 AFR, correct?
Ron

When you export learned and the PV device generates the new tune the only deltas from the base tune you started with will be the (corrected) VE tables.
The VE tables represent the airflow model, once VE is established the ECM can accurately control "effective" AF dynamically from the AFR/Lambda and other fuel related lookup tables.

Understand. Thanks
Ron

[rbabos]

I find some interesting info here but Powervision Pro doesn't work quite like that. When you choose Pro option it converts the afr table in the cal to 13-1 or something like that. The widebands dial the ve table into that requested afr through several exports as needed.

We use the WB to collect voltage that we turn into a o2 reading.  We compare actual to target.  Find the percent difference and add or subtract that percent. 

What do you think the auto programs do?  How do you hand map VE's? 

however the further you deviate from the AF target the wider range of potential error,

This is part of tuning.  Lowering the potential of error.  Most of the pro tuners I talk with.  Don't use the programs in the vision.  Set the target table as you are going down the road and collect data with something like DTT or TTS.  Since big target jumps aren't needed.  This will lower the potential for error. 

Makes sense, regarding setting the target. There are options.  For what it's worth , I log tune through MyTune. For an amateur like me, helping struggling v rod owners on internet tuning, it's worked well. No actual involvement with PV Pro other then one guy trying to make it work on a bike not closed loop capable.2005 v rod. It just refuses to see the sensors.  Site says it fits in one area and in another area it's not listed to fit 05. Jury still out on that, as getting a straight answer to whether the 2005 v rod ECM is closed loop capable or not.  Only other DJ problem I've had is a boost tune on a v rod with TTS @8 psi. PCV with autotune. We discovered for the v rod the sensors need to be swapped.#1 is front, not the rear as it was stated. We sent a vid to DJ showing that cyl 1 trims, manually punched in effected Cyl 2. It is now stated #1 cyl is front on a v rod. That tuned in well after that. Last report was +/- 2% daily changes. Bike is an animal. One other area and a sore spot between us is that damn adaptive and again this is again seems strictly v rod related. I've never gotten a stable tune with it enabled. No idea why, even though the AFFs only had a slight variance to the integrators, when testing my bike years ago. It can run sweet when you park it and the next day run like crap. Always runs the same day after day with the adaptive off. I might add, the same guy with the SC, I previously TTS tuned it when stock. The adaptive in play caused no issues and the bike ran with a stable tune every day. So is it the PV cal interaction with the ECM, don't know.  There's something weird in play. Until then, that 0 in the table or Disable in PV is my friend.
Ron