Unexpected change in VEs

[98fxstc]

I am looking for a bit of advice from our resident tuners.
I am tuning with TTS and I thought I had the tune pretty well sorted.

You cannot see attachments on this board.

I was going away on the bike over the weekend and set up flight recorder to pick up a few more cells and finish off the tune.
I ran Vtune when I got home and this was the result.

You cannot see attachments on this board.

There were changes in the VEs for the whole area mapped.
It seems all the VEs have been reduced substantially.

I made no physical changes to the bike and and wonder whether there is a faulty sensor, MAP or TPS  ? or similar.
I had 15 data files which I ran through Vtune.
I went back and did the Vtune with Data-r01 and then Data-r02 and confirmed the changes kicked in from the very start.
I am not able to access the data files from previous Vtune for comparison due to faulty laptop.

Any suggestions for the seemingly substantial drop in VEs in both cylinders for the entire map ?

Thanks

It appears we are no longer able to attach TTS calibrations or data files.

[rigidthumper]

Was this back to back testing, or some time elapsed between the original set and the new set of data?
Before installing the changes, I'd re-run the test. If the third data matches the second, something has changed. Doesn't seem to be huge, tho. 10 VE points is 1/2 of an AFR, and a load of bad fuel or old fuel stabilizer can shift the readings by a few points. The O2 sensors only measure remaining oxygen in the exhaust stream, so if there is a change (clogged fuel filter, loose O2 sensor, loose temp sensor, etc.) in the residue O2 passing the O2 sensor, it will report that, and the VEs will want to change.

[98fxstc]

Thanks Robin.

I decided to take the opportunity to use a weekend away to finish off my vtuning.
I updated the TTS software and found two tables had been added, Front and Rear cylinder spark throttle correction.
I did the copy and paste multiple tables because I got the file obsolete warning.
I went for an hour ride to check everything was ok after the updates
This was about 4 days before going away. Hence the first set of VEs.
I filled up with fuel ready for the ride away.
I filled up again on the trip on the way home.
I have looked at the data files for the start of the trip and the changes were happening straight up.
I will have a look at the data files towards the end of the trip and run them separately.
I will empty the tank and get fresh gas and do some more vtuning over the next few days.

Thank you.

[Hilly13]

Very interested to see what is causing this mate, please keep us posted.

[98fxstc]

I ran vtune with the last couple of data files from the overnighter which would have been using the second gas fill.
It seems the tune is not related to a particular gas fill but is now constant.

I had a head temp sensor and a MAP sensor on the shelf so I swapped these over to go for a run before I drained the tank and checked the fuel filter.
I also have a fuel pressure gauge and tested before I drained the tank.
My fuel pressure is about 42 psi with the bike running/idling, (used to be 58-60) but there have been no signs of fuel problems when riding.
When I test fuel pressure with ignition on and the pump priming, the pressure goes up to about 35 psi but drops immediately to zero when the pump stops.
Is this likely a split hose, faulty fuel pressure regulator or a faulty fuel pump ?
I have not drained the tank yet.
Thanks

[rigidthumper]

Low fuel pressure will def affect the tune. Pinhole in the check valve hose or crack @ one of the fittings would show up as the "immediate drop in pressure" when the pump stops running. Pushed oring in the filter housing will cause low pressure and a drop.
Good catch! Now pop the top and see what you have.

[98fxstc]

We have an Anzac Day ride on tuesday and I reckon the bike will get through that alright.
Then I will drain the tank and have a look. I am expecting split check valve hose.
Most fuel pump/filter, check valve hose parts seem to be available for my 09 and most being original, I will replace a few maintenance parts as well.
Will be a wait for parts from the US though. 

Thanks Robin

[lonewolf]

Is it strange the ve's dropped along with fuel pressure? I thought they would've gone up.

[98fxstc]

I thought they would have gone up too.
I was thinking the VEs are determined by fuel demand as a result of sensor feedback.
If the injectors were not supplying sufficient fuel due to lower pressure, the sensors would be indicating a lean condition, the ecm demanding more fuel and the software showing a higher VE.

My engine was not showing any symptoms of a leaking fuel line, idle problems or hesitation on acceleration.
It was not on my check list but I checked because I had the horn removed to swap the engine temp sensor.
I checked the connections on the pressure tester but they were good and the results were repeated a few times.

I will do another data log during the ride on tuesday, the only changes being MAP sensor and engine temp sensor.
I will drain the tank and check the hoses and connections after the ride.

[Hilly13]

And?

[98fxstc]

I did a quick vtune before the ride, after re-assemble with new engine temp sensor and map sensor.
Still looking for changes in the VEs, so no remedy there.

I have plenty of data from the ride but have not processed it yet.

I was getting a lot of decel pop (unburned fuel ?) which I did not have previously.
(so getting more fuel rather than less fuel ?)

I am into my fuel tank and pulling out the check valve to check the fuel line.

[lonewolf]

Silly question. When you "copy and pasted" did you compare cu inch and injector size between the 2 maps as they don't copy and paste?

[98fxstc]

Thank you Russel
 
I did not edit the tuning constants.
My injectors are HPI 5.3 and the default value is 4.85
The open and closing setting for the cam may be slightly different too.
I am not able to access my previous tune files because I cooked my laptop and I had to download the calibration in the interface to continue tuning with.

I will get that sorted.

I still think I have a problem with the fuel line indicated by the pressure test and will confirm that in the next day or two.

[lonewolf]

I still think I have a problem with the fuel line indicated by the pressure test and will confirm that in the next day or two.

Yes. If you can test it up thru the revs. It can get worse with rpm. This is good vs bad
You cannot see attachments on this board.

[hrdtail78]

Until you fix the fuel delivery issue.  You are chasing your tail.  Fuel pressure is an unchangeable constant in the fuel side of the equation. 

[Hossamania]

Could the fuel delivery issue be the cause of the original VE change?

[98fxstc]

I checked the injector setting in the the calibration I retrieved from the interface to do the tuning and it is incorrect there too, so I have carried it forward from a previous update.
The VEs would have been slightly skewed due to the incorrect value but the substantial change in the VEs is coming from somewhere else.

[hrdtail78]

Could the fuel delivery issue be the cause of the original VE change?

Yes, I am sure dropping pressure would influence VE changes but with a different scaling in cubic inch and injector size.  It would be hard to define by the data we have to view.

Timeline isn't real clear, but the first set of iterations could be just CI and injector size.  Then maintenance involving fuel QD's brought another problem.

But one could calculate what the difference of injector size and CI does to the OG VE tables.  Then compare with Vtune suggested VE.  Injector data with OG cal compared to new copy/paste cal would also be data worth looking at.

[98fxstc]

No problems with CI, that has always been correct.
Injector size was different but has still been a constant in this situation.

I expect the change in VEs is a consequence of the fuel pressure and fuel delivery.
I will eliminate that as a cause.

[lonewolf]

I would think they should go up with less pressure 

[98fxstc]

I have the fuel pump and regulator out. All the connections seem good.
I will flush the filter.
I will test the corrugated hoses for holes/splits.

I guess its possible I could be losing pressure at the injector fuel rail also but any leak outside the tank would mean a visible loss of fuel too ?

[98fxstc]

I would think they should go up with less pressure 

I thought that too Russel, but the gauge is telling me I am losing pressure so I will try to sort that and then see what is happening.

[Hilly13]

Hose splits are usually easy to see with the top off, fuel spraying around is a dead giveaway, might be internal, reg or pump maybe? Anything external of the tank would be obvious, injector stuck open or bleeding under pressure would be noticeable running wise I would think, lean can cause popping on decel, a pcIII cal showed me that.

[lonewolf]

I'm confused on when you installed the updated map. Before or after the first pic?

[Hilly13]

Find anything cobber?

[98fxstc]

I'm confused on when you installed the updated map. Before or after the first pic?

I did the updated map before the initial vtuning check (the first pic)
I did a quick run, about an hour with a mix of riding to confirm everything was working ok before I went away for the weekend.
Everything seemed ok.
The VEs were pretty much on track with previous vtuning.(the first pic)

I expected to pick up a few more cells on the trip away and call it done.
But I had substantial changes in the VEs which has indicated a problem somewhere.
The second pics are showing that

The injector constant was wrong for both sessions, it looks like I have been carrying it for a while.

[98fxstc]

Find anything cobber?

I did the checks arse about.
I pulled the fuel pump assembly out and checked all the connections, o rings and fuel lines.
I couldn't see any holes or cracks in the fuel lines so I hooked up an air hose with 60psi and submerged them. No bubbles. Nothing.
I also applied a bit of pressure to the external fuel line from the check valve to the injector fuel rail to check for leaks. All good.

[98fxstc]

I have the data from the Anzac Day Run a couple of days ago but haven't processed it yet.
Coyote has added DM3 files to eligible files so I can post them for any one who is interested in having a look at them but I do not have any data files previous to the update for comparison.

[Hilly13]

Pinch the pump an reg out of the young fellas bike lol

[98fxstc]

Pinch the pump an reg out of the young fellas bike lol

I was thinking about that tonight 😊

[Hilly13]

 Making any progress on this cobber?

[98fxstc]

Making any progress on this cobber?

I was thinking about trying the fuel pump out of my son's bike and talked to him about it, and he was ok with it but I decided to just buy another one. I am waiting for it to turn up.

I also got another laptop and will start from scratch with the tuning.
But I will try to recover the files from my old one for a comparison.
I have a lot of other stuff on there I would like to retrieve but I have to wait a while for the guy that can do it for me.

So, a bit of waiting and no progress.

[Hilly13]

That sucks but things are what they are, hopefully you get the data you want off the old laptop, keen to hear of a success story 😁