Question about oil pump installation

[Ken R]

I could not find a Harley new style oil pump to get in my hands in less than 2 weeks. Cancelled my on line orders when I found that they don't have them and told me that they were back-ordered. 
Sitting on the project, I went ahead with the Screamin' Eagle pump and cam plate.  Lots of $$$ extra, but I'm sure I won't be unhappy with it.  At least it's prettier. 

NOW, Here's my Question:

Spinning the motor via the rear wheel to center the new oil pump innards, it made a whoosh sound with every crank rotation and oil belched into the cam chamber.  I've done this before with Twin Cams and never saw oil being pumped somehow into the chamber.   Not just a little bit, but probably 2 or 3 ounces (guestimate). 

Did I do something wrong?  I don't think so.  I took the cam plate back off to make sure the o-rings were in place.  They were.  Put it back together and same thing.  A whoosh sound with every revolution and oil comes forth into the cam chest area and dribbles into my catch pan. 

Is it coming from the sump under the crankshaft?  Is the pressure from the pistons going down pushing it out?  Is it something for which I need to be concerned?    I'm holding off the installation of the cam cover as long as I can.

Ken

[Ken R]

I couldn't stand it!    Went ahead and completed the job and started the motor.  No tick tick tick from lifters or valve train.  I really primed the lifters well with a syringe. (if I did  a lot of this, I'd use a vacuum jar.  It'd be much quicker and less messy)

So I assume everything is good with the new oil pump.  It's such a simple install, hard to mess up, I think. 

Still would like to know why the oil belched into the cam chest area when the engine was rotated. 

[Tacocaster]

Yeah, they are pretty simple - until they're not. You MUST have a service manual doing the work you just did. Take a look inside. There's a good write-up on Oil Flow - Top and Bottom End at the beginning of one of the sections that should address your questions, hopefully.

[rigidthumper]

When does it go to the tuner?

[Ken R]

Yeah, they are pretty simple - until they're not. You MUST have a service manual doing the work you just did. Take a look inside. There's a good write-up on Oil Flow - Top and Bottom End at the beginning of one of the sections that should address your questions, hopefully.

I have the Service Manual and used it to make sure I did the install correctly.  However, I didn't notice the write-up about oil flow.  I'll do that now (even though the engine is running normally).

[Ken R]

When does it go to the tuner?

He's booked up right now, but hopefully within a few weeks. 
In the meantime, I'm thinking that I should not ride the motorcycle much if at all.   

But I'll certainly follow up on this thread when it's tuned. 

[hrdtail78]

Do you know where the oil was getting into cam chest?  On a M8 with the seal.  There is no way for the air to escape the crank cavity, but it can put head pressure on the oil in the crank and push it into the scavenge side of the pump.

[TimP]

Two years ago I installed a cam, Feuling oil pump and cam plate. At that time Feuling did not make a back plate for their oil pump that utilized the seal that H-D is using on the current M8 oil pumps. They do now and I recently pulled my pump and installed the new Feuling back plate and the H-D seal. When rotating the engine I too got a whooshing sound/oil belching out of the pinion shaft when rotating the engine. I did not remember this noise with the original install. I called Feuling and the tech told me this is normal and he has experienced it personally with the seal. Something about the vacuum the seal causes at the pinion shaft.
I have a couple of hundred mile on my bike since the install and all is good.   
 

[Ken R]

UPDATE:

Well, it got more complicated.  I installed a new Screamin' Eagle cam plate and oil pump.  A stock 2020 or later oil pump just wasn't available and best guess was 2 or 3 weeks from several sources.  So I bit the bullet and bought the Screamin Eagle plate and pump.  At least it's pretty. 

Took it to Ed at The Dyno Difference.  After a while, he said, "it's sumping". 
Sure enough, each tuning run produced less horsepower. 
Either I did something wrong (I always doubt myself first) or the new S.E. pump and plate are defective.  Defective didn't seem likely. 
Ed did the best he could tuning  after draining the sump more than one.  It was really sumping badly.  Like a quart or more! 
Took it home, put it up on the lift table and drained  another 1-1/2 more quarts out of the sump.  YEAH, something is bad wrong.  What did I do, what did I do wrong? 
Removed the exhaust, floorboard and cam chest cover . . . . nothing looks bad.   Guess I need to pull the pushrods and remove the cam plate and pump.   Reluctantly did that.  Everything looked great.  Both O-rings in place, the big seal in place, perfect!   Took the pump off the plate looked at it closely; there's really very little that I could have done wrong. 
Then, I saw it.   A threaded hole in the pickup tube part of the pump.  "That doesn't look right!" 
It wasn't right.  The factory had failed to install one of the three little threaded plugs.  I didn't notice when putting it together.  An experienced mechanic might have.   The installation instructions don't mention the plugs but they're drawn in the IPB but no illustration regarding where they go.  There should be three of them in the pump.   One is missing.   
Went back to the dealership.  All I need is the little threaded plug.  They don't stock them, of course.  I suggested that they pull the plug out of another brand new pump.  No balking . . . they pulled a new plug out of a brand new SE kit box and I installed it. 
FIXED!  (after a whole lot of work doing the entire cam change task again except for the bearing).  No sumping now. 

Regarding my original question:  There's a passage between the crankcase "floor" and the cam chest "floor.  It appears that my motor has been sumping somewhat all along.  Any oil in the sump that is higher than the cam chest floor freely flowed to the chest and onto the lift table.   When I spun the engine to center the gerotor, it cause the sumped oil in the crankcase to flow into the cam chest.  That doesn't happen any more.  When there's just a little oil in the sump, spinning the engine doesn't displace it into the cam chest like it did before.  I'm pretty happy about that.  Sumping might explain a couple of instances of poor power and bad gas mileage on a trip last year. 

[FSG]

Ken I'd hit up that Dealership for a copy of this service bulletin dated 27-Apr-2023

M1586: Screamin' Eagle Oil Pump Incorrectly Machined

[FloridaJim5]

Ken I'd hit up that Dealership for a copy of this service bulletin dated 27-Apr-2023

M1586: Screamin' Eagle Oil Pump Incorrectly Machined

So these bulletins are no longer posted on HTT?  I can't find them anywhere in HTT. Seems like there was a section called HD Bulletins.      

[Ohio HD]

So these bulletins are no longer posted on HTT?  I can't find them anywhere in HTT. Seems like there was a section called HD Bulletins.   

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,36325.msg1436662.html#msg1436662

[FloridaJim5]

So these bulletins are no longer posted on HTT?  I can't find them anywhere in HTT. Seems like there was a section called HD Bulletins.   

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,36325.msg1436662.html#msg1436662

Very weird....would have sworn this wasn't there yesterday.  I guess I'm losing it     

[Ken R]

So these bulletins are no longer posted on HTT?  I can't find them anywhere in HTT. Seems like there was a section called HD Bulletins.   

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,36325.msg1436662.html#msg1436662

Well, that's just great! 
Oil pump has been installed.  I can only hope that the dealership checked the protrusion,referencing the bulletin and the one sold to me is not defective. 

[FSG]

Well, that's just great! 

Ken, do you still have the packing box so as to check the date ?

[FloridaJim5]

So these bulletins are no longer posted on HTT?  I can't find them anywhere in HTT. Seems like there was a section called HD Bulletins.   

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,36325.msg1436662.html#msg1436662

Very weird....would have sworn this wasn't there yesterday.  I guess I'm losing it     

Finally dawned on me.   My site supporter status ran out for a couple of days till I could pay up.   

Ken, did you have a chance to check the box?  Just curious.   

[FSG]

Ken, did you have a chance to check the box?  Just curious.   

    

[Ken R]

I wonder where the box is.  I'm certain I would have put the stock cam and pump in it.

But alas, old pump and cam are in a stash box.  The original box wasn't found.

I hope it's OK.  I went on a 3,500 Sedona and other points camping trip and a 5,300 mile Mount Rainier, PCH, Lake Tahoe, and other points trip since replacing the cam and pump and other associated parts.  Seems to be running well.  Hopefully, the parts were machined properly.  Would I know it if not?
Two oil changes since, both appeared normal.
Ken