New woods bushing lifters

[itsafatboy]

These look interesting.

 https://www.woodcarbs.com/directional-roller-lifters

was going to get jims might call and see about running these with limiters, maybe he will do a trade in on his other lifters

[tdrglide]

Rigorously road tested 40+ hours @ 3000rpms doesn't sound too rigorous to me.
Pressure = 2.9 billion psi. ?

That said, I'd bet they're a high quality lifter. Didn't see a price

I have a set of Johnson hi-lift slow leak down lifters with direct shot running with 660 lift cams right now. I took the limiters out. Quite as a mouse  (in the Harley world)

[RoadKingKohn]

Rigorously road tested 40+ hours @ 3000rpms doesn't sound too rigorous to me.
Pressure = 2.9 billion psi. ?

That said, I'd bet they're a high quality lifter. Didn't see a price

I have a set of Johnson hi-lift slow leak down lifters with direct shot running with 660 lift cams right now. I took the limiters out. Quite as a mouse

what model Johnson HY-Lift are you using? Mine have gotten noisy at75,000 miles. Thank you.

[tdrglide]

Rigorously road tested 40+ hours @ 3000rpms doesn't sound too rigorous to me.
Pressure = 2.9 billion psi. ?

That said, I'd bet they're a high quality lifter. Didn't see a price

I have a set of Johnson hi-lift slow leak down lifters with direct shot running with 660 lift cams right now. I took the limiters out. Quite as a mouse

what model Johnson HY-Lift are you using? Mine have gotten noisy at75,000 miles. Thank you.

Was just poking a little fun on Wood's marketing skills, not his products, which are top rate.

[kd]

These look interesting.

 https://www.woodcarbs.com/directional-roller-lifters

was going to get jims might call and see about running these with limiters, maybe he will do a trade in on his other lifters

The Wood website is very clear about no returns or exchanges. 

[jsachs1]

Price ??

[Bagger]

FWIW, this Wood lifter is manufactured by Hy-Lift Johnson, Top Line Automotive Engineering; the same company which makes WFO Larry's lifters.

[hrdtail78]

FWIW, this Wood lifter is manufactured by Hy-Lift Johnson, Top Line Automotive Engineering; the same company which makes WFO Larry's lifters.

Then wouldn't that mean that Johnson Hy-Lift has been working on a bushing lifter.  Like others also offer. 

[wfolarry]

FWIW, this Wood lifter is manufactured by Hy-Lift Johnson, Top Line Automotive Engineering; the same company which makes WFO Larry's lifters.

Then wouldn't that mean that Johnson Hy-Lift has been working on a bushing lifter.  Like others also offer. 

The engineer at Hylift worked with Bob to develop this lifter.
Whether Hylift will offer their own version has yet to be confirmed. Or denied. 

[kd]

FWIW, this Wood lifter is manufactured by Hy-Lift Johnson, Top Line Automotive Engineering; the same company which makes WFO Larry's lifters.

Then wouldn't that mean that Johnson Hy-Lift has been working on a bushing lifter.  Like others also offer. 

The engineer at Hylift worked with Bob to develop this lifter.
Whether Hylift will offer their own version has yet to be confirmed. Or denied. 

The days that roller service kits were available and commonly used are behind us.  A device kit for the bushing roller would be my preference. Sort of do it yourself.

[itsafatboy]

So im on list for these talked to bobby today says they will be in july first , asked him about using limiters he said no need just run down to .140 or .150 so probably what ill do i have smith brother 20 tpi new pushrods so 2 + 5 flats should be good , not sure on growth with twincam no one really knows 

[Ohio HD]

I assume that you know those pushrods won't work with OEM style pushrod tubes? According to Smith Brothers they recommend their tubes and Colony tubes.

[kd]

So im on list for these talked to bobby today says they will be in july first , asked him about using limiters he said no need just run down to .140 or .150 so probably what ill do i have smith brother 20 tpi new pushrods so 2 + 5 flats should be good , not sure on growth with twincam no one really knows 

Count on around .040 to .060 cylinder growth depending on how hot the engine is.  That means the .150 could become about .110 (ish).

[FSG]

That means the .150 could become about .110 (ish).

I'd sure bee hoping so ..... 

running a PR too deep in a Lifter can cause problems by cutting off the oil flow in the lifter  ....

but as Bobby has said just run down to .140 or .150 prolly not a problem as I'd expect him to know the internal dimensions of his lifter

[Wookie3011]

Price ??

I've seen 290$ on websites

[Wookie3011]

I've had 2 lifters fail to pump up with the jims #1827. I just bought the replacement for the 2nd failure. It always starts as a slight tick once warmed up. Over time it gets progressively worse. I called jims and the tech said "let me guess, rear exhaust?" It was front exhaust but I found it highly suspect that he offered that. Full disclosure I do beat on my bike. My experience is just one guy's. Once he heard I was running limiters in them he said I had altered the original design. I did:). I really do like the extra protection of not having those needle bearings. so I'm going to be getting the woods. I will let you know after a few thousand miles my experiences with them also.

[Schex3x]

Rigorously road tested 40+ hours @ 3000rpms doesn't sound too rigorous to me.

Yea that threw me, what kind of test is that?
When we go out west, We leave home at 12am, burn through Texas at 3-3500r's and make it to Raton,NM at 5pm, 17 hours later.

[Ohio HD]

I've had 2 lifters fail to pump up with the jims #1827. I just bought the replacement for the 2nd failure. It always starts as a slight tick once warmed up. Over time it gets progressively worse. I called jims and the tech said "let me guess, rear exhaust?" It was front exhaust but I found it highly suspect that he offered that. Full disclosure I do beat on my bike. My experience is just one guy's. Once he heard I was running limiters in them he said I had altered the original design. I did:). I really do like the extra protection of not having those needle bearings. so I'm going to be getting the woods. I will let you know after a few thousand miles my experiences with them also.

Since you had two lifters that don't pump up, I assume the same location, front exhaust? Try moving that lifter to the rear cylinder and see what happens. Also look at the lifter fit in the bore for the front exhaust. Too much clearance may cause an issue with lifter fill.

[Wookie3011]

It was rear exhaust and front intake. I can fill the lifters with oil and still press the piston/plunger in with my finger on both. They don't hold pressure anymore. When I say fill them, I have directly pumped oil into them with a hand pump and soaked them for a day in oil. No air bubbles. All the other lifters would have to be bled down slowly while these other 2 allow the oil to escape with the press of my finger with just spring pressure countering not oil. Maybe it's the limiters causing the failures? I will remove them and adjust normally. I must admit it's not a big adjustment off the bottom with 2 flats then tighten. I've considered maybe I'm adjusting them to tight and am damaging them that way. I am extremely careful and patient with the process.

[Ohio HD]

If you did happen to make them too tight, it won't hurt anything. It just means the piston in the lifter is sitting on the limiter spacer. Which they do by design when the lifter bleeds down from sitting long enough. The purpose is so that you get valve lift to aid in starting the motor.

I would agree, try without the limiter and see what happens.

[kd]

If you did happen to make them too tight, it won't hurt anything. It just means the piston in the lifter is sitting on the limiter spacer. Which they do by design when the lifter bleeds down from sitting long enough. The purpose is so that you get valve lift to aid in starting the motor.

I would agree, try without the limiter and see what happens.

Or maybe take them apart on a white paper towel and look for dirt or engine filings.  The lifters will be the canary in the cold mine if the oil was contaminated.  It may even have occurred during a previous maintenance repair or oil and filter change.  A less than surgical clean oil pump bottle used to fill the lifters will do it too.

[harpwrench]

Try backing off from bottom just enough that you can twist the pushrod with a slight drag.

[Ohio HD]

Or maybe take them apart on a white paper towel and look for dirt or engine filings.  The lifters will be the canary in the cold mine if the oil was contaminated.  It may even have occurred during a previous maintenance repair or oil and filter change.  A less than surgical clean oil pump bottle used to fill the lifters will do it too.

True enough. One of my NOS HD 'B' lifters that I put limiters in tapped every now and again after startup. And sometimes out of the blue would tap. Eventually it stopped tapping. I figure that there may have been a spec of dirt in the lifter, or maybe specs of dirt occasionally entering the lifter.

As rigidthumper says, "the best oil filter on Earth is a hydraulic lifter".

[Wookie3011]

Sounds like a good idea. I'll lpull them apart and inspect them while I measure the bores. Thanks

[itsafatboy]

Wondering on the lifter retain clip these have the paper clip style does it make any difference. i have some circlips from lifter same size ID or is this just dumb,   

[Ohio HD]

The clips only job is to hold the lifter together when it's out of the motor. When the lifter is installed and adjusted, the cup is nowhere near the clip. Usually about 0.100" to 0.140" away from the clip.

[OldBogie]

The Circlip is not the right thing, you want an internal TruArc see link.

https://saeproducts.com/retaining-rings.html

Upon install you need to note that the TruArc has one side with a rounded edge and the opposite has a sharp edge. These are always installed into the lifters retaining ring groove with the sharp edge side facing up. This reduces the chance of the TruArc being forced out by slippage of the round edge against the retainer groove.

This is something used when the lifter is adjusted with the preload position placing the cup near or at the top of its travel. It's an old hotrodder trick to remove the chance of pumping up the lifter then having to wait for it to bleed down before the engine catches again.  For everyday operation the plunger and cup body if adjusted to factory specs shouldn't be pushing against the retainer. But if you wind it out to where you pump-up the lifters the TruArc is damn good insurance.

Bogie

[Ohio HD]

Wood Lifters use a wire retaining clip. The same clip that all Harley Davidson OEM lifters for Twin Cam and M8 motors use. Some aftermarket lifter manufacturers use an internal snap ring, some use the wire retainer. One is no better than the other as we already know they are under no tension once the lifter is installed and adjusted.

You can use which ever method floats your boat, but one is as good as the other.

I have never had a retainer come out of the lifter body.

[SP33DY]

Wire style clips are used in a radiused groove. Stamped clips (Truarc) and spirolock clips are used in a square cut groove.

[Ohio HD]

I didn't know that. But it does make sense.

[98fxstc]

If you check wfolarry's lifter threads, you will see that he makes mention of some S&S pushrods making contact with the circlips and he replaces those with the wire clips.

[Ohio HD]

So curiosity got the best of me, this is a 18538-99C lifter, this lifter uses the wire retainer. The groove in this lifter looks to be a square cut. I tried to use the light in my scope to get a better image, but the internals of the lifter just reflected light all over the place.



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[kd]

If you check wfolarry's lifter threads, you will see that he makes mention of some S&S pushrods making contact with the circlips and he replaces those with the wire clips.

Smith Brothers came out with a new stiff wall tapered adjustable non quick change pushrod around 2013-14 that did it on high lift cams.  When I got mine only a few sets had been released. This was on S&S premiums with wire clips.  Another member here and I brought it up with them (there's a thread here about it).  They redesigned the lower adjuster ball profile, replaced ours immediately 👍 and as I understand they reconfigured all sets from there forward with the new profile.

[FSG]

The groove in this lifter looks to be a square cut.

below is the -99C Lifter I had sectioned, looks square cut to me 

[wfolarry]

It's the same groove whether it's wire or clip.
There's even a pressed in retainer in some racing lifters. I don't like them because it's brutal taking them apart.

[wfolarry]

Wire style clips are used in a radiused groove. Stamped clips (Truarc) and spirolock clips are used in a square cut groove.

That's true on pistons. If you don't know which retainer to use check the groove or the shape of the end of the wrist pin.

[itsafatboy]

Well got platinum lifters in ,

 i just had a nagging gut feeling on the cup design so i took the cups and disks from the woods lifters i had and put them into the platinum lifters , oil comes out just fine , all Measurment's were exactly same , made from same place just did not like having a tiny hole barely visible hole being the meter and feed to top end , it just didnt sit well ,  i have heard stories of piston jets clogging or push rods and both have large holes than this cup so i started all sounds great went .140 preload so after engine warm be sitting at .100 or so but so far so good. i know im probably wrong but the meter disk has worked for long time. 

[Ohio HD]

Did you miss what Larry said about why the hole is so small, and what will most likely happen?

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,120724.msg1446984.html#msg1446984

I for one wouldn't spend money on a premium product and then change it based on a hunch. I know that Jamie Long has many sets of these Platinum lifters in the field right now.

[itsafatboy]

here is a pic of the one i took out and the one i put in,  sorry but i couldnt get better pic the hole is small

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[itsafatboy]

Did you miss what Larry said about why the hole is so small, and what will most likely happen?

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,120724.msg1446984.html#msg1446984

I for one wouldn't spend money on a premium product and then change it based on a hunch. I know that Jamie Long has many sets of these Platinum lifters in the field right now.

the premium part to me is the roller with no needle bearing otherwise they look exactly like the previous woods lifter , ya i know why hole is small to meter oil just dont like it just my opinion and im ok with the older cup version,  ive had issues trying new stuff like the SHUBECK ROLLER-X lifters back in the day full floating but made out of aluminum coated, didnt workout to weel fo a few peoplw 

[Ohio HD]

The point is you may have changed the metered amount of oil expulsion and as well then changed the way the lifter body stays pressurized. I suspect they made a change for a reason. They already had the older style oil metering valve and cup to use. 

[Jamie Long]

Well got platinum lifters in ,

 i just had a nagging gut feeling on the cup design so i took the cups and disks from the woods lifters i had and put them into the platinum lifters , oil comes out just fine , all Measurment's were exactly same , made from same place just did not like having a tiny hole barely visible hole being the meter and feed to top end , it just didnt sit well ,  i have heard stories of piston jets clogging or push rods and both have large holes than this cup so i started all sounds great went .140 preload so after engine warm be sitting at .100 or so but so far so good. i know im probably wrong but the meter disk has worked for long time. 

I would not at all recommend swapping components from earlier lifters, the Platinum solid bushing lifters were designed to meter and oil a specific way. Zero reason to do this. 

[Hossamania]

I'm not sure why you'd want to use them if you don't trust them as built, and why you trust them with your untested mod.

[itsafatboy]

OK i am going to put the cups back ,

[itsafatboy]

How is the bushing getting oil on these lifters ,  are there the 2 small holes on the lifter body , like the alpha, and like the ones layy sells   

[Ohio HD]

Bob Wood shows you in his advertisement.

[turboprop]

No comments on the lifters but kudos to Bobby and Larry for being upfront about their source. We have all seen countless shops and reseller call things 'Their Lifters' or their pistons, pushrods, cams, etc, when the only thing that is 'Theirs' is the sticker and card in the box. <rolls eyes>

This looks like a good product and I am anxiously looking forward to reading countless new threads about them.

[itsafatboy]

well the more i looked i just couldn't ,so my choice, i have oil to top end and head temps were great on 80 mile drive yesterday and the lifters are quiet real quiet, so i will keep the cups from the alpha set, just dont like the small half a needle point hole , doesn't sit well, hope they last forever though   

[Hilly13]

Even the good ones can fail......

https://youtube.com/shorts/Kgidok8aza0?si=GHigzH5q9gMN8NWg

[98fxstc]

Even the good ones can fail......

https://youtube.com/shorts/Kgidok8aza0?si=GHigzH5q9gMN8NWg

Not sure about the safety boots

[98fxstc]

I assume these will only be available from Bobby Wood,
and if anyone wants to fit travel reducers, they would only be available from Larry ??

[tdrglide]

Advertising says 0.080 more travel. Does this mean approx 0.280 total? Does that serve any purpose? Also supposedly 10% more oil to top end. Good, bad

Don't think I've ever seen lifters from woods marketed with travel limiters. And woods makes some high lift steep ramp cams. Does he ever recommend them?
Took limiters out of my Johnson HY-Lift lifters and cannot tell any difference except it's a little quieter and that's with 660 lift cams

 

[ziggy24]

Even the good ones can fail......

https://youtube.com/shorts/Kgidok8aza0?si=GHigzH5q9gMN8NWg

That video is from jan 2022....cant be a wood lifter.

[Hilly13]

Even the good ones can fail......

https://youtube.com/shorts/Kgidok8aza0?si=GHigzH5q9gMN8NWg

That video is from jan 2022....cant be a wood lifter.

It isn't, but it is a good one, I'll be watching with interest how Bobbies Bushes hold up, my faith in needles has waned.

[FSG]

Advertising says 0.080 more travel. Does this mean approx 0.280 total?

that's more lifter travel before it hits the anti rotation item,
it's NOT more internal piston travel

and that's a good thing   

[tdrglide]

Aha! Now that makes sense 

[itsafatboy]

So on these bushing lifters ,  jims or woods , is there constant oil getting feed to bushing setup? the jims has a big feed hole for the bushing , the woods 2 very small holes on body

[kd]

The problem with starting more than one thread on the same subject is the information gets lost when you don't actually get to read all of the responses.  See Larry's response #6 in your other thread  (Took apart the Wood's Platinum Bushing Lifter) where he gave the answer to the same question. 

I think you'll agree that as long is the engine is running the lifter is bleeding oil.  No need to pour copious amounts on the roller of 4 lifters that have fine tolerances between the components.  It will just drain into the crankcase adding to any existing sump oil and that is not necessarily a good thing.

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,120724.0.html

[Ohio HD]

But oil is also a cooling agent to the motor parts. So you need enough constant flow to accomplish both lubrication and cooling.

[wfolarry]

Advertising says 0.080 more travel. Does this mean approx 0.280 total?

that's more lifter travel before it hits the anti rotation item,
it's NOT more internal piston travel

and that's a good thing   

That's for the guys that have big cams. Stock type lifters will hit the tappet cuff when you get somewhere over .600 lift. Don't remember the exact #.

[itsafatboy]

The problem with starting more than one thread on the same subject is the information gets lost when you don't actually get to read all of the responses.  See Larry's response #6 in your other thread  (Took apart the Wood's Platinum Bushing Lifter) where he gave the answer to the same question. 

I think you'll agree that as long is the engine is running the lifter is bleeding oil.  No need to pour copious amounts on the roller of 4 lifters that have fine tolerances between the components.  It will just drain into the crankcase adding to any existing sump oil and that is not necessarily a good thing.

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,120724.0.html

sorry about to many posts wont happen again just was not thinking

[Hilly13]

Been a pretty good thread(s), I was about to order another set of 850's but the bushing lifters have got me thinking.

[kd]

But oil is also a cooling agent to the motor parts. So you need enough constant flow to accomplish both lubrication and cooling.

    However, too much flow ending up in the sump has a similar extra heat effect with other not so wonderful complications such as too much hot oil overwhelming the system. (Think piston oilers that are leaking.) I expect plenty of oil escapes from the lifter bores to wet the cams and gears down for that purpose.  Much like the primary chain case, there's a real oil storm happening in there.

[Ohio HD]

Much like the primary chain case, there's a real oil storm happening in there.

And that's how everything gets oiled. You get a misted environment. 

[itsafatboy]

so the misting environment and the small holes on the body keep the bushing in the roller always riding on oil? this is the part i was wondering about since no needle bearings. just wondering if there is a flow to the bushing at all times sou ds like it doesn't need that 

[60Gunner]

Something to think about. These lifters are nothing new. They're also cheaper to make. I would think if they were better AND cheaper, even the Moco, would have been using them long ago given their propensity to cheap out.
I'll stick with what works. But good luck.

[JSD]

One would think less friction with rollers than a bush

[60Gunner]

One would think less friction with rollers than a bush

You're absolutely right. I think you'll see more cam lobe wear too. They have their place but not in a street bike.
Unless you're doing 6000rpm launches all the time.

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/quick-tech-differences-bushed-needle-roller-lifters/

[Hilly13]

It's true they are not new, Isky are very proud of theirs, they have them for HD's, I don't know anyone that runs them, you can't discount advances in metallurgy, knowledge is built off what came before, it comes down to being able to keep an oil film between the load surfaces, have Woods figured it out? We will see.

[60Gunner]

It's true they are not new, Isky are very proud of theirs, they have them for HD's, I don't know anyone that runs them, you can't discount advances in metallurgy, knowledge is built off what came before, it comes down to being able to keep an oil film between the load surfaces, have Woods figured it out? We will see.

Keeping a layer of oil there involves higher oil pressure. Way higher. It's why even a lot of race teams aren't using them. They don't want bigger oil pumps eating up HP or excessive oil dripping on to the crankshaft. Its why some run tunnels.
I'm not sure there's anything for woods to figure out.
It's also been noted synthetic is not the best oil for them. A conventional or a blend is better for the shock load and for staying put.
As for advances in metals, the same is true for the steel used in needle bearings. How many failures do you hear about in street engines where bearings are dropping out unless they're not getting ANY oil or being abused?
If they were best here someone besides Bobby Woods would've come out with them by now. Topline especially. They went to great lenghs to design a lifter especially for HDs long ago. They would've designed and sold their own bushed lifter before making them for Woods.
These will soon die a slow death here. Especially given the price woods is selling them for when they cost less to make than needle bearing lifters. But that's what happens when there's another mouth to feed and you don't buy direct from the manufacturer... In this case Topline  AKA Johnson Hylifts  which is what Larry sells here.
Just no good reason to use any other lifter. I won't even get into how they're designed.
Bobby Woods is a business man like any other looking to make a buck on something some will buy into. Simple as that.

Unless you have valve control issues and run ridiculously high spring pressures, bounce off the rev limiter all the time, or do high rpm launchers needle bearing lifters will last longer and so will your cam lobes. They require far less oil too. Oil that ends up in the sump I might add. Do we really need more sumping issues and crankshafts swimming in more oil?
All things you need to think about and be aware of before jumping on something new because it sounds good in theory or because of who sells them.
I know I won't even think about running these and I do bounce off the liimiter occasionally and run a built engine with high lift cams and higher than stock spring pressures. Not high enough to take out my needle bearing lifters tho.


https://www.performanceracing.com/magazine/columns/09-01-2021/make-case-bushed-lifters-vs-needle-bearing-lifters#:~:text=When%20everything%27s%20properly%20controlled%2C%20needle,will%20with%20a%20bushed%20lifter.

[Hilly13]

But what if it's porosity that solves it 60, what if 😁

[60Gunner]

But what if it's porosity that solves it 60, what if 😁

As far as maintaining the layer of oil necessary? Or the need for it? Not quite clear which it is you're getting at?

[60Gunner]

so the misting environment and the small holes on the body keep the bushing in the roller always riding on oil? this is the part i was wondering about since no needle bearings. just wondering if there is a flow to the bushing at all times sou ds like it doesn't need that 

Actually it DOES need that. Way more than a needle bearing roller. They also require constantly keeping track of lash as an indicator of wear.
The only plus is when failure occurs it doesn't send hardened steal needles thru the pump and everywhere else. But they are much more prone to wear under normal operating conditions even. As much as 3 to 4 times faster and take 5 more HP to spin the wheel.
Unless I'm missing something, the more I think about it the worse I think they are. Think about the low oil pressure at idle. Cold starts. And the possibilities of that bushing not getting the oil it needs at idle or that wheel not spinning at all coming on and off the ramps and skids. Like the wheel of an airplane touching down on the runway. It takes more force to spin it in a bushing.

I'm open to hearing how this is being addressed but so far the only thing I'm hearing here is if Bobby woods is selling them they must be good and that's not good enough for me. Sorry.

https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/bearings-vs-bushings-the-great-roller-lifter-debate-explored/

[Hilly13]

60 I don't think many on this forum will run out and buy something just because Bobby Woods makes it..... having said that I have run one of his cams and it did what he said it would....it's easy to find articles on the internet that will support a view point....I don't actually have a take on these bushing lifters other than as an interested observer....I've had the top of the pile direct shot lifter go south, caught it before it grenaded thankfully, I would not call my engine max effort by any means.
Link to an article by Nolan Jamora of Isky fame.
https://www.performanceracing.com/magazine/sponsored-content/09-14-2022/isky-bushing-roller-lifters-truth-whole-truth-and-nothing

[Ohio HD]

Good article Hilly.   

[JSD]

Isky looks the goods i like the oil grove in the bushing . Thanks Hilly

[60Gunner]

60 I don't think many on this forum will run out and buy something just because Bobby Woods makes it..... having said that I have run one of his cams and it did what he said it would....it's easy to find articles on the internet that will support a view point....I don't actually have a take on these bushing lifters other than as an interested observer....I've had the top of the pile direct shot lifter go south, caught it before it grenaded thankfully, I would not call my engine max effort by any means.
Link to an article by Nolan Jamora of Isky fame.
https://www.performanceracing.com/magazine/sponsored-content/09-14-2022/isky-bushing-roller-lifters-truth-whole-truth-and-nothing

The links I posted actually gave both view points for the most part and the facts about both. That's why I posted them. So people can make an informed decision on their own. I did before Bob ever came out with his an no way I would run them. I don't care who makes them. There's more not good than good imo.

You'd be surprised how many people buy based on who's selling what tho. Everyone has their favorite vendors and Bob certainly knows his "Potty mouth". I've talked to him more than once Over the years and he was the one that first got me thinking about the 30 tooth solid primary I run now. I almost went with one of his cams more than once. His 999-6A as a stage 2 103 which he suggested in fact.
I just ended up buying similar cams that were more what I was looking for. Mainly not quite so steep ramps. If you notice the 590s I run now are pretty much identical to his 888s. Both good mid to upper rpm cams that do the same thing.
That's not my point and it sure isn't saying anything about Bob's stuff. I just don't think these Bushed lifters are right for street bikes. He probably won't be the only selling them either. Maybe he has a market for them already. Enough people race bikes. Some probably with his cams.

The article your linked is right on. You fail to realize one major part of what he's saying. He's referring to race applications. Not Harley Davidson street bikes.
Race engines are notoriously hard on lifters for the reasons I stated. If you don't have control of your valve train then you might want them. Mine is under control with acceptable spring pressures as I suspect most street bikes are. They don't see anywhere near the shock on the lifters as a race engine bouncing off the rev limiter all day. Hell most never get close to it. Needle Bearings are way less friction, last longer in normal operating conditions, and have less oiling requirements.
Think about it

[Hilly13]

I've got an open mind 60.

[60Gunner]

I've got an open mind 60.

So did I. That's why I looked into the pros and cons of them and not just from one source that clearly has an interest in selling them. I wanted the best lifter just like I wanted the best everything else. It became clear rather quickly bushed lifters wasn't it.
I'd bet $$$ Isky would say the same in our case. He is speaking clearly from a race engine standpoint and cars at that.
Not a street ridden Harley Davidson motorcycle. Totally different animal.

[itsafatboy]

well i have them in , with the piddle valve been very quiet so far , we will see ho it goes , but jims steady roll been out for a while and a lot of miles on them with no issues so hope same results , maybe i read wrong but 5hp diff from these to needle don't think so, also not sure what woods using for roller says not a bushing maybe ceramic like roller - x tried or something else but says not brass bushing, they are quit and i just didn't like the pushrod cup so went back to his previous lifter cup all specs same on size and piston, just don't like the small hole but that's me, been on few rides very quit. the only diff between these and his others are the roller versus needle well in mine since i went to piddle valve setup. 

[98fxstc]

60 I don't think many on this forum will run out and buy something just because Bobby Woods makes it..... having said that I have run one of his cams and it did what he said it would....it's easy to find articles on the internet that will support a view point....I don't actually have a take on these bushing lifters other than as an interested observer....I've had the top of the pile direct shot lifter go south, caught it before it grenaded thankfully, I would not call my engine max effort by any means.
Link to an article by Nolan Jamora of Isky fame.
https://www.performanceracing.com/magazine/sponsored-content/09-14-2022/isky-bushing-roller-lifters-truth-whole-truth-and-nothing

The links I posted actually gave both view points for the most part and the facts about both. That's why I posted them. So people can make an informed decision on their own. I did before Bob ever came out with his an no way I would run them. I don't care who makes them. There's more not good than good imo.

You'd be surprised how many people buy based on who's selling what tho. Everyone has their favorite vendors and Bob certainly knows his "Potty mouth". I've talked to him more than once Over the years and he was the one that first got me thinking about the 30 tooth solid primary I run now. I almost went with one of his cams more than once. His 999-6A as a stage 2 103 which he suggested in fact.
I just ended up buying similar cams that were more what I was looking for. Mainly not quite so steep ramps. If you notice the 590s I run now are pretty much identical to his 888s. Both good mid to upper rpm cams that do the same thing.
That's not my point and it sure isn't saying anything about Bob's stuff. I just don't think these Bushed lifters are right for street bikes. He probably won't be the only selling them either. Maybe he has a market for them already. Enough people race bikes. Some probably with his cams.

The article your linked is right on. You fail to realize one major part of what he's saying. He's referring to race applications. Not Harley Davidson street bikes.
Race engines are notoriously hard on lifters for the reasons I stated. If you don't have control of your valve train then you might want them. Mine is under control with acceptable spring pressures as I suspect most street bikes are. They don't see anywhere near the shock on the lifters as a race engine bouncing off the rev limiter all day. Hell most never get close to it. Needle Bearings are way less friction, last longer in normal operating conditions, and have less oiling requirements.
Think about it

When the 110 CVOs came out with the 255 cams there were a lot of documented lifter failures; both hard facing on the rollers and needle bearings.
They were street bikes not race bikes, but a combination of cam lobe profile and high valve seat pressures proved too much for the shitty 'c' lifters and for some SE lifters that went in.

I have a lot of hours and a lot of dollars in my 98fxstc and my 09fxdfse. They are not race bikes but performance modified street bikes and any future modifications will be to support their longevity.

I like the idea of the bushing lifters and I am paying close attention to the thread and the references posted.

I have a Darkhorse crank in the fatbob, not a performance part, but what I consider to be a worthwhile investment to prevent the possibility of a catostrophic failure.

Risk is a different quantity for every individual, based on cost of insurance weighed, against cost of consequences.

[Hilly13]

well i have them in , with the piddle valve been very quiet so far , we will see ho it goes , but jims steady roll been out for a while and a lot of miles on them with no issues so hope same results , maybe i read wrong but 5hp diff from these to needle don't think so, also not sure what woods using for roller says not a bushing maybe ceramic like roller - x tried or something else but says not brass bushing, they are quit and i just didn't like the pushrod cup so went back to his previous lifter cup all specs same on size and piston, just don't like the small hole but that's me, been on few rides very quit. the only diff between these and his others are the roller versus needle well in mine since i went to piddle valve setup. 

When they say 5hp I believe they are referring to V8's, 16 lifters, let's assume (never assume hilly) that each lifter is a direct percentage of that HP loss, 5÷16=.3125, times that by 4, 1.25HP!
As you point out Bobby is not saying what is in his lifter bushing wise, Isky keep their recipe to themselves as well, in the link I posted he specifically mentions "hot street" if you are following this thread that probably applies to you as in my mind from a lifters life perspective hot street means high spring pressure's, steep ramps and liberal throttle action, Isky have lifters for Harley's, yep he had caveats in his article, warts an all.
I really hope you keep us updated as you put miles on the Woods, as I pointed out earlier in this thread I've had a B2313SE go south, caught it in time thankfully, if Bobby has got longevity sorted I can't see why they couldn't be used, time will tell.

[60Gunner]

60 I don't think many on this forum will run out and buy something just because Bobby Woods makes it..... having said that I have run one of his cams and it did what he said it would....it's easy to find articles on the internet that will support a view point....I don't actually have a take on these bushing lifters other than as an interested observer....I've had the top of the pile direct shot lifter go south, caught it before it grenaded thankfully, I would not call my engine max effort by any means.
Link to an article by Nolan Jamora of Isky fame.
https://www.performanceracing.com/magazine/sponsored-content/09-14-2022/isky-bushing-roller-lifters-truth-whole-truth-and-nothing

The links I posted actually gave both view points for the most part and the facts about both. That's why I posted them. So people can make an informed decision on their own. I did before Bob ever came out with his an no way I would run them. I don't care who makes them. There's more not good than good imo.

You'd be surprised how many people buy based on who's selling what tho. Everyone has their favorite vendors and Bob certainly knows his "Potty mouth". I've talked to him more than once Over the years and he was the one that first got me thinking about the 30 tooth solid primary I run now. I almost went with one of his cams more than once. His 999-6A as a stage 2 103 which he suggested in fact.
I just ended up buying similar cams that were more what I was looking for. Mainly not quite so steep ramps. If you notice the 590s I run now are pretty much identical to his 888s. Both good mid to upper rpm cams that do the same thing.
That's not my point and it sure isn't saying anything about Bob's stuff. I just don't think these Bushed lifters are right for street bikes. He probably won't be the only selling them either. Maybe he has a market for them already. Enough people race bikes. Some probably with his cams.

The article your linked is right on. You fail to realize one major part of what he's saying. He's referring to race applications. Not Harley Davidson street bikes.
Race engines are notoriously hard on lifters for the reasons I stated. If you don't have control of your valve train then you might want them. Mine is under control with acceptable spring pressures as I suspect most street bikes are. They don't see anywhere near the shock on the lifters as a race engine bouncing off the rev limiter all day. Hell most never get close to it. Needle Bearings are way less friction, last longer in normal operating conditions, and have less oiling requirements.
Think about it

When the 110 CVOs came out with the 255 cams there were a lot of documented lifter failures; both hard facing on the rollers and needle bearings.
They were street bikes not race bikes, but a combination of cam lobe profile and high valve seat pressures proved too much for the shitty 'c' lifters and for some SE lifters that went in.

I have a lot of hours and a lot of dollars in my 98fxstc and my 09fxdfse. They are not race bikes but performance modified street bikes and any future modifications will be to support their longevity.

I like the idea of the bushing lifters and I am paying close attention to the thread and the references posted.

I have a Darkhorse crank in the fatbob, not a performance part, but what I consider to be a worthwhile investment to prevent the possibility of a catostrophic failure.

Risk is a different quantity for every individual, based on cost of insurance weighed, against cost of consequences.

I get that. Believe me I do. I have an ungodly amount of money in my 107 build. I didn't just want one of the quickest 107s on the planet which I think I've come awful close to, I also wanted it as bulletproof as possible and started with an S&S crank. Quite simply I wanted the best and I spared no expense on it because I am hard on it.
 I'm guilty of hard, high rpm acceleration/deceleration ALOT. It's what I built it for and geared it for.
If I thought bushed lifters were better in my bike I'd be running them in a heartbeat.

Jyst an fyi in case you didn't know. Harley's C lifters are made in Mexico garbage(have been since 2010). The SE lifters are not much better. Can't hardly compare them to a quality premium needle bearing lifter.
Not all needle bearing lifters are created equal just as I'm sure not all bushed lifters are.

It's not the quality of these woods lifters that's at issue here. It's the nature of a bushed lifter that I don't think is a good idea in a Street Harley Davidson compared to a quality needle bearing lifter. 
I think you'll find the oiling requirements alone will be an issue here and why a premium needle bearing lifter will last way longer short of the abuse most never see in a street bike.
How many needle bearings are being dumped into motors?
The issue with lifters and noise is internal(not the wheels falling off). and the internals of bearing and bushed lifters are the same.
It's an issue that Johnson Hylift figured out a solution to a long time ago for HD. HD just went with the cheaper Delphi lifter and in 2010 cheaper out even more.
Even the best of both needle bearing and bushed can fail.

One more thing to consider is the oil used. Bushed lifters obviously cause way more friction than a lifter with bearings. That's a given. How many here run oil with friction modifiers to reduce friction like race oil does? None of you running motorcycle (v-twinl)  oil are because it doesnt have them. It's designed to work in wet clutches. Friction modifiers cause them to slip. Something you want in an engine oil. Especially one with bushings I would think. I don't run motorcycle oil in my Harley engine. Never have dating back to my IH.
Just more to think about.

[JSD]

The EPA is putting pressure on engine manufactures and they want to meet the EPA standard . So oil is the next target , so less ZDDP is being added . 

[RoadKingKohn]

The EPA is putting pressure on engine manufactures and they want to meet the EPA standard . So oil is the next target , so less ZDDP is being added .

In the USA ZDDP has been out of oil for about 20 years.

[kd]

The EPA is putting pressure on engine manufactures and they want to meet the EPA standard . So oil is the next target , so less ZDDP is being added .

In the USA ZDDP has been out of oil for about 20 years.

Not so.  Do an internet search on which engine oils use ZDDP.  You may be surprised to find out that your present oil is one of them.   

[Ohio HD]

Not so.  Do an internet search on which engine oils use ZDDP.  You may be surprised to find out that your present oil is one of them.   

True, many motor oils still use ZDDP. The amount of ZDDP is reduced in some motor oil due to it causing issues to catalytic converters.

[RoadKingKohn]

The EPA is putting pressure on engine manufactures and they want to meet the EPA standard . So oil is the next target , so less ZDDP is being added .

In the USA ZDDP has been out of oil for about 20 years.

Not so.  Do an internet search on which engine oils use ZDDP.  You may be surprised to find out that your present oil is one of them.   

I know Amsoil has one for older car with tappets and they do not recommend it for use in cars with catalytic converters.

I will have to research it.

[60Gunner]

Not so.  Do an internet search on which engine oils use ZDDP.  You may be surprised to find out that your present oil is one of them.   

True, many motor oils still use ZDDP. The amount of ZDDP is reduced in some motor oil due to it causing issues to catalytic converters.

Which goes to show how anal the EPA is. The levels of zddp it takes for even flat tappet engines, approximately 1400ppm, MIGHT cause some slight damage to cats after 100,000 miles of using it.
But MC oil has enough zddp which is an anti wear additive.  Actually some have way more than necessary. This is because they have way more detergents than necessary. Detergents compete against zddp and are counterproductive to the protection of zddp. This is why a true race oil like Valvoline NSL has little to no detergents and gets dumped after every race. VR1 and others like it have detergents and can run 5000 miles. Just not an over abundance of detergents.
 What MC (v-twin) oil.doesn't have is friction modifiers. A key additive in engine oil. This is why I don't run any jaso certified ma or ma2 oil in my engine. If it works in the primary no way does it go in my engine.
Race oil only for my expensive baby. Besides its even cheaper and I can change it every 2500 miles and still be further ahead than running expensive MC oil that's lacking what it needs.
Running these bushed lifters are going to benefit even more from friction modifiers even more than needle bearing lifters. Something your MC oil doesn't have.

50 weight oil is exempt from the EPA ban on zddp. Race oil of any weight is also exempt.

[RoadKingKohn]

Not so.  Do an internet search on which engine oils use ZDDP.  You may be surprised to find out that your present oil is one of them.   

True, many motor oils still use ZDDP. The amount of ZDDP is reduced in some motor oil due to it causing issues to catalytic converters.

Which goes to show how anal the EPA is. The levels of zddp it takes for even flat tappet engines, approximately 1400ppm, MIGHT cause some slight damage to cats after 100,000 miles of using it.
But MC oil has enough zddp which is an anti wear additive.  Actually some have way more than necessary. This is because they have way more detergents than necessary. Detergents compete against zddp and are counterproductive to the protection of zddp. This is why a true race oil like Valvoline NSL has little to no detergents and gets dumped after every race. VR1 and others like it have detergents and can run 5000 miles. Just not an over abundance of detergents.
 What MC (v-twin) oil.doesn't have is friction modifiers. A key additive in engine oil. This is why I don't run any jaso certified ma or ma2 oil in my engine. If it works in the primary no way does it go in my engine.
Race oil only for my expensive baby. Besides its even cheaper and I can change it every 2500 miles and still be further ahead than running expensive MC oil that's lacking what it needs.
Running these bushed lifters are going to benefit even more from friction modifiers even more than needle bearing lifters. Something your MC oil doesn't have.

50 weight oil is exempt from the EPA ban on zddp. Race oil of any weight is also exempt.

I add liquid boron to engine and transmission oil. It really helps in reducing friction.

[60Gunner]

Not so.  Do an internet search on which engine oils use ZDDP.  You may be surprised to find out that your present oil is one of them.   

True, many motor oils still use ZDDP. The amount of ZDDP is reduced in some motor oil due to it causing issues to catalytic converters.

Which goes to show how anal the EPA is. The levels of zddp it takes for even flat tappet engines, approximately 1400ppm, MIGHT cause some slight damage to cats after 100,000 miles of using it.
But MC oil has enough zddp which is an anti wear additive.  Actually some have way more than necessary. This is because they have way more detergents than necessary. Detergents compete against zddp and are counterproductive to the protection of zddp. This is why a true race oil like Valvoline NSL has little to no detergents and gets dumped after every race. VR1 and others like it have detergents and can run 5000 miles. Just not an over abundance of detergents.
 What MC (v-twin) oil.doesn't have is friction modifiers. A key additive in engine oil. This is why I don't run any jaso certified ma or ma2 oil in my engine. If it works in the primary no way does it go in my engine.
Race oil only for my expensive baby. Besides its even cheaper and I can change it every 2500 miles and still be further ahead than running expensive MC oil that's lacking what it needs.
Running these bushed lifters are going to benefit even more from friction modifiers even more than needle bearing lifters. Something your MC oil doesn't have.

50 weight oil is exempt from the EPA ban on zddp. Race oil of any weight is also exempt.

I add liquid boron to engine and transmission oil. It really helps in reducing friction.

Boron is an excellent additive. I've considered doing this myself but Valvoline recently changed their VR1 to include moly, boron, and magnesium. No more sodium and less calcium. Moly is a friction modifier. Boron is a multi purpose additive. A mild detergent and extreme pressure/antiwear additive.
Google boron in engine oil.
Some are replacing ZDDP with it but it works even better WITH ZDDP.
It can be added to fuel too.

[speedzter]

We all love some good oil theory .
Some reading, they rate Boron very highly :
Penrite oil Knowledge

[itsafatboy]

thanks , im thinking of using redline race oil and maybe adding boron additive , and based on the reading seams detergents kind of fight against the wear protection so since i change every 2500 or so not worried about detergents that mutch . wonder what the best boron additive is   

[RoadKingKohn]

thanks , im thinking of using redline race oil and maybe adding boron additive , and based on the reading seams detergents kind of fight against the wear protection so since i change every 2500 or so not worried about detergents that mutch . wonder what the best boron additive is   

SFR out of Montana.

You use 1-1.5 oz per quart of oil.

They make it for engine and gear boxes.

NEVER put it into a primary, limited slip axle or automatic transmission.

[speedzter]

Shame you cant find an oil you like that already contains Boron.

[60Gunner]

Shame you cant find an oil you like that already contains Boron.

Valvoline VR1 does. I'm sure there are others.

I've wondered about this stuff tho. Its a one time treatment supposedly.

https://bltboron.com/motorsilk/

[Hilly13]

Maybe Bob's Bushings contain Boron 
Couldn't help myself 

[60Gunner]

Seriously tho. The science behind boron is there just like zddp. The problem with adding these additives is knowing how much and how they work with the additives in your oil. P!us this SFR and motorsilk is expensive.
It's why I run the oil I run that has what I'm looking for.

This is interesting tho.

https://www.sfrcorp.com/product/testing/sfr-100-petroleum-oil-fortifier/

[Hossamania]

This thread has migrated to a talk about oil additives, mirroring another thread started specifically to discuss oil additives. It might be best to take oil additives posts to that thread, and keep this on track with lifter discussion.

[60Gunner]

This thread has migrated to a talk about oil additives, mirroring another thread started specifically to discuss oil additives. It might be best to take oil additives posts to that thread, and keep this on track with lifter discussion.

It has. My bad. I started because of the oiling requirements for bushed lifters are more demanding than needle bearing lifters. Kinda of went from there.
I've said all there is to say here.