03 TCA front outer cam brg

[xlfan]

I can't spot any bearing balls in bottom of cam cavity. Is it an educated guess that the engine has gradually eaten them up over time?

[rigidthumper]

What isn't caught in the pump passageways and filter is sitting in the bottom of the oil bag...

[fbn ent]

I can't spot any bearing balls in bottom of cam cavity. Is it an educated guess that the engine has gradually eaten them up over time?

How many miles on that?

[calif phil]

Tensioner looks new, did someone forget to put a bearing in it?

[Armin]

I wonder how the engine behaved without the outer bearing?

Armin.

[xlfan]

Tensioner looks new, did someone forget to put a bearing in it?

The rear tensioner is totally worn through down to metal. I was thinking along the same lines, maybe someone pressed the camshaft out and in again without replacing the bearing.

[xlfan]

I wonder how the engine behaved without the outer bearing?

Armin.

The owner claimed he didn't notice anything strange before the serious rattle started. I just started the bike and stopped it immediately.
I guess the owner didn't have much Harley engine experience.

[xlfan]

I can't spot any bearing balls in bottom of cam cavity. Is it an educated guess that the engine has gradually eaten them up over time?

How many miles on that?

2003 Dyna with 50k on the meter, I seriously think the meter must have been changed. The meter was on 28k when owner bought it 2 years ago.

[smoserx1]

On an 03 that front bearing would have been a one piece unit (unlike the 2 piece rear roller bearing), and there should be a snap ring on the outer end of the cam.  It seems incredible that someone would actually leave the entire bearing out.  Looking closely at the pic it seems a thin ring (maybe part of the outer race) is left in the cam plate).  Anyway with all that wobbling that had to happen I would be concerned about the condition of the corresponding inner case bearing and certainly the condition of the lifters and maybe the lifter bores in the case.  I guess this is one of the reasons H-D got rid of all the bearings in the 2007 cam plate because front bearing failures, while rare, did continue to happen occasionally, or so I have heard.  Hope the motor is not damaged too badly.  To me this is another argument for going with conversion cams and avoiding those hybrid plate upgrades.

[xlfan]

There is a snap ring on the outer end of the cam, and the inner race is still there. It is the balls that are gone.

[-deuced-]

Bearing balls are pretty hard material. The engine has not gradually eaten them up. They're in there somewhere.

[smoserx1]

A possible word of encouragement. I still have my 99 which suffered a cam bearing failure early on, as did many that first year.  It was fixed under a special warranty H-D had back then and one of the service procedures was to remove & clean the oil pan, which my dealer did not do.  you can tell if something on the bottom of a vehicle has been serviced.  There was no visible evidence the screws had been touched or the gasket had been changed.  There was a sweet odor coming from the dip stick leading me to suspect  they had attempted flushing the pan, and later on someone who was close to the head tech there informed me I was correct....they figured a flush was sufficient.  Anyway I was doing 2500 mile oil changes back then using conventional oil and continued getting shavings on the drain plug for several oil changes after that.  A few years later I did replace the oil pan because I had just about stripped the female threads for the drain plug and when I examined the old pan there was no evidence of contamination by then.  I am still riding that bike with well over 200K on it & the bottom end has not been rebuilt (except for cam work).  I would say I got extremely lucky and maybe you will too, but Harley always said debris from this type failure would be contained to the areas Rigidthumper stated earlier, and it sounds like it is correct.  Hard to believe those balls could end up in the oil pan and have not totally destroyed the scavenge gear-rotors of the oil pump.

[ziggy24]

A possible word of encouragement. I still have my 99 which suffered a cam bearing failure early on, as did many that first year.  It was fixed under a special warranty H-D had back then and one of the service procedures was to remove & clean the oil pan, which my dealer did not do.  you can tell if something on the bottom of a vehicle has been serviced.  There was no visible evidence the screws had been touched or the gasket had been changed.  There was a sweet odor coming from the dip stick leading me to suspect  they had attempted flushing the pan, and later on someone who was close to the head tech there informed me I was correct....they figured a flush was sufficient.  Anyway I was doing 2500 mile oil changes back then using conventional oil and continued getting shavings on the drain plug for several oil changes after that.  A few years later I did replace the oil pan because I had just about stripped the female threads for the drain plug and when I examined the old pan there was no evidence of contamination by then.  I am still riding that bike with well over 200K on it & the bottom end has not been rebuilt (except for cam work).  I would say I got extremely lucky and maybe you will too, but Harley always said debris from this type failure would be contained to the areas Rigidthumper stated earlier, and it sounds like it is correct.  Hard to believe those balls could end up in the oil pan and have not totally destroyed the scavenge gear-rotors of the oil pump.

I can't spot any bearing balls in bottom of cam cavity. Is it an educated guess that the engine has gradually eaten them up over time?

I would be suspect of the "Inner" cam bearings as well, seeing as the cam was running at an angle and putting uneven loads on it.

[xlfan]

I would be suspect of the "Inner" cam bearings as well, seeing as the cam was running at an angle and putting uneven loads on it.

At least the inner front cam bearing is for sure damaged, I just hope the engine case isn't too damaged. Lifters for the front cam won't be reused, hopefully the lifter bores has survived. I'm curious of what I will find inside the oil pump.

Hopefully I will get time to dig into it later tonight.

[rigidthumper]

Post pics of the internals...

[xlfan]

Looks like cam plate, front cam, inner cam chain and pump return gerotors are shot, otherwise it doesn't look too bad.

[smoserx1]

I see you found the balls.  Where did they end up?

[FSG]

an 03 so plenty of time has past to have done an inspection on those tensioners   

[xlfan]

I see you found the balls.  Where did they end up?

Surprisingly in the BOTTOM of cam cavity 🤣

[Mi Infidel]

I have a cam plate if you want it. I may even have an oil pump. I'd change all the bearings and cams and flush it out with your fluid of choice and then do a few 1000 mile oil changes. I may have some cams laying around too. Let me know if you need anything.

[xlfan]

I am a bit worried that 2 of the bearing balls are not accounted for....

[-deuced-]

Looks like there is two still in there. Perhaps in the crankcase. You might have some luck with a magnet. Is all the bearing cage accounted for?

[-deuced-]

Have you removed the oil pan?

[xlfan]

I am tempted to reuse the camplate, I think the front bearing has sufficient support for a near stock engine.
Any opinions?

[kd]

  good one.  Your a funny guy or ... want to have more grief.

[motorhogman]

I'm no expert, but I sure wouldn't use that cam plate. That would weigh on my brain for ever.

[-deuced-]

Bearing outer race removal technique, 

I can kind of see the temptation to re-use the camplate but I'd replace it. The lip in the bearing bore is for setting of the bearing depth. As long as most of it is there and there are no high spots on the bore side and you can guarantee no bits of lip will break off and you're sure the bore is not distorted it might work. I can only see a glimpse but there is visible wear from the oil pump although that's to be expected regardless of cam bearing condition. The replacement camplate doesn't have to be new. Anything with less than 50k miles is probably going to be in better condition. Cams in previous pics look stock so I'm guessing engine is stock. If you post in the Wanted section you might even get a stock camplate with a matching oil pump.

Have you recovered the rest of the bearing?

[xlfan]

Not found the remaining 2 balls, going to pull oil tank (Dyna), hoping they have been ground so small that they have passed the scavenge gerotors.

[rigidthumper]

Think about all the tiny pieces of metal sitting in the crevices of the oil passages...
And then remember to remove & clean the oil bag, after you find a different cam plate

[kouack]

Not found the remaining 2 balls, going to pull oil tank (Dyna), hoping they have been ground so small that they have passed the scavenge gerotors.

I can safely say if the 2 balls you are looking for would have passed into the oil pump, you would be looking for many little pieces of the oil pump gerotors also.

[kd]

Unfortunately, as others have stated, you have a huge detail cleaning chore in your future.  The fine grit (and the 2 missing balls) will cause another engine failure if left to migrate around.  I expect the balls are in the engine sump below the flywheels after exiting the bearing to the inside.  The real fine particles that made it through the oil pump Some of which is aluminum and non magnetic)  will be in the rod and main bearings or presently stored in the crevices of the oil reservoir and oil passages.  I would just get used to the idea that it has to be done and get started.  Otherwise the risk of a catastrophic failure is huge and it will undo anything you replace by taking a shortcut.   

[Mi Infidel]

Not sure where you're at on your project but I have a serviceable cam plate if you need it. I may be able to put together a stock oil pump too. Let me know. I'm facing my own fiasco at the moment with my bike 😔 

[xlfan]

Appreciate the offer, but the owner has found a replacement cam plate, oil pump, complete with cams and inner cam chain.

[xlfan]

I wonder if the tensioner shoes have been replaced, front cam pressed out of bearing without replacing the front bearing in the past.
Oil tank and oil filter contained so much magnetic steel debris (but no sign of the 2 missing bearing balls),  that the verdict is total disassembling of engine, including flywheels.

[kd]

I wonder if the tensioner shoes have been replaced, front cam pressed out of bearing without replacing the front bearing in the past.
Oil tank and oil filter contained so much magnetic steel debris (but no sign of the 2 missing bearing balls),  that the verdict is total disassembling of engine, including flywheels.

   Finding that kind of magnetic fuzz in the oil means you really don't have a choice.  The crank bearings and pins as well as the rest of the oil system will have to be detailed if you don't want to be risking all that you spend on getting it back up and running.

[Mi Infidel]

Appreciate the offer, but the owner has found a replacement cam plate, oil pump, complete with cams and inner cam chain.

I missed the part about it being a customer bike. I thought it was your bike before reading the thread again. Good call on splitting the cases.