Dowel Ring dimension

[fbn ent]

Well, it's come to this.... Does anyone here have the dimensions of #16589-99A - Dowel Ring? The threads pulled on the 1/4" NC hole behind it and it has to be removed to repair it.  This is the cam plate locating dowel on TCs.

[fbn ent]

.

[Ohio HD]

I don't have one out of a case, but I can measure the O.D. tomorrow on a motor in the shop, I have to take the cam plate off. But I suspect that you can measure the O.D. on yours?

Eastern MC Parts say the OD is 0.3745", and the length at 0.400".

[kd]

If we're talking about the dowel in the cam plate  that the internal threads strip in, there is an easier repair.  Carefully clean the thread out with air and gently cut the lower taper of the hole with a 1/4" bottoming tap.  Install a 1/4 "  stud and  red loctite it snuggly (not overtightened) in place.  Use a 12 pt ARP (or similar) flange nut on the stud to refasten the plate after the loctite has had time to cure.  Also clean the oil etc out of the other hole inside of the opposite dowel hole and add a stud and nut there too.  Those 2 holes are very well known for doing what your's did and should be changed to stud and nut the very first time the cam cover is removed.  

[fbn ent]

Why didn't I ever hear of this "well known" problem.   

[FSG]

 


from S&S   

[Ohio HD]

FYI. If you go the two studs route. Make sure to just fit them loose in the case without any Loctite and fit the cam plate to make sure everything is ok. Then red Loctite the studs in place, very slight pressure to seat the studs.

These are the studs and nuts to use. If you want I can send a couple of each to you on Monday, express mail or UPS. Just let me know.

Dorman   675-086   1/4-20 and 1/4-28 Threads, 1.500 in. studs
ARP  300-8320  12-Point, Custom 450, Black Oxide, 1/4-28

[hattitude]

Why didn't I ever hear of this "well known" problem.   

I learned about it on this forum. I've installed studs in the three cam chests I've opened since reading the info on HTT...

I KNEW if I ignored this advice, I would pay for it....   

In this pic, I left the nuts on the studs so I wouldn't lose them while waiting for parts for reassembly...

[fbn ent]

Thanks you guys. I already ran a 17/64 bit through the threadless hole, using the dowel ring as somewhat of a guide, to be able to install heli coils and then stud it (after I learned about the 12 point nut/bolt combination).I heard about tapping the hole deeper a couple hours too late. I now have to remove the dowels to continue on. I do have the advantage of living next to a retired machinist with all the toys so I'm sure we can get it back together. The dimensions of the dowel ring will help immensely.

Ohio- Thanks, I got a couple from Koko352. He's about 50 miles from me.

I honestly don't know how I missed a thread on this. 

[FSG]

I honestly don't know how I missed a thread on this. 

 

[FSG]

I drew this to scale a long time ago to show the thread engagement difference between a normal hole and a dowled hole.

Stud them the first opportunity and never look back.

[Coyote]

Ime, there's enough good thread below the stock bolt to hold the stud. Red loctite on the stud..

[Armin]

I used Time-Sert thread repair with 1/4-20 studs when I was the thread stripper a few years back. It is of utmost importance to meticulously prepare the operation and I secured the stud seating with JB Weld.

Armin.

[fbn ent]

Ime, there's enough good thread below the stock bolt to hold the stud. Red loctite on the stud..

Yes, I realize that, but I've already done the drilling. So far no luck getting them out.

[Coyote]

You can't pull the dowel with pliers?

[fbn ent]

You can't pull the dowel with pliers?

I have had my neighbor build a .277" slug for them and have had no luck pulling with whatever I can get a grip with. Will try with heat today. One question though...How tough is that liner paint? Say 150* or so? I know it sees higher. Don't want to loosen it with a propane torch...

[kd]

Can you thread it to a 1/8 pipe thread and use a steel 2" or so 1/8 nipple to grab on and pull it?  failing that, install a 1/8 steel close nipple then use heavy red grease and a close fitting shaft or punch to hydraulically push them out?

[Ohio HD]

Can you grip it with a large drill chuck? Get that really tight and you may be able to pull more evenly around the dowel.

[fbn ent]

Can you grip it with a large drill chuck? Get that really tight and you may be able to pull more evenly around the dowel.

I have tried one with diamond coated jaws. I will try it again today with heat.

kd-1/8" yep, will try that too. With heat.

[kd]

Can you grip it with a large drill chuck? Get that really tight and you may be able to pull more evenly around the dowel.

I have tried one with diamond coated jaws. I will try it again today with heat.

kd-1/8" yep, will try that too. With heat.

Try to shield the dowel from the heat with a piece of close fitting pipe and only warm up the aluminum parent metal.  The aluminum expands faster than steel and shielding it will amplify that.

[Armin]

I went through the same pain when repaired my dowelled threads and I used a suitably sized left hand thread screw extractor with the correct tool to turn the extractor, and it worked fine.

Armin.

[fbn ent]

Well...no love. 

Tried to pop it hydraulically....nope.

Went and bought a new set of vise grips and used my sized slug to hold it's shape. It only tore it up.

Next thing is get a threaded rod or bolt in there and pull.

Fingers crossed.

[kd]

I'm doing a little rethink here.  If it is stuck in that tight it may have been apart before you owned it and had red loctite or something similar applied.  Pulling on it when it's so stuck could damage the engine cases.   Be careful not to pull so hard the case flexes.  I think at this point I would personally be considering using a dremel to carefully cut or grind a groove down the inside length of the dowel.  Then collapse it in.  It should crack the length of the groove if it is deep enough.

That's just me thinking here without being present.  I feel for ya buddy.

[fbn ent]

I'm doing a little rethink here.  If it is stuck in that tight it may have been apart before you owned it and had red loctite or something similar applied.  Pulling on it when it's so stuck could damage the engine cases.   Be careful not to pull so hard the case flexes.  I think at this point I would personally be considering using a dremel to carefully cut or grind a groove down the inside length of the dowel.  Then collapse it in.  It should crack the length of the groove if it is deep enough.

That's just me thinking here without being present.  I feel for ya buddy.

Yeah, that thought has crossed my mind. Had the temp up to 230* on the inside of the cam chest with MAP gas...nope. I have an old cam plate I could make a puller base with. Maybe even my Jim's inner cam bearing tool. Going next door to talk to my machinist again right now. He says, "Don't worry Randy, we'll get it" in his Dutch accent. Don't worry....easy for him to say Just about ready to buy a spare/spare bike. The Shovel MAY have a cracked case. That's the next project....

[kd]

Ha Ha, I can hear his voice.  His thought process is easy does it - eventually.  Take the artist approach.  That's why I through the dremel method at you.  I am sure you will find joy if you are patient enough to resist the fast bull approach.  It sounds like your neighbour is a mellow dude.

[fbn ent]

Ha Ha, I can hear his voice.  His thought process is easy does it - eventually.  Take the artist approach.  That's why I through the dremel method at you.  I am sure you will find joy if you are patient enough to resist the fast bull approach.  It sounds like your neighbour is a mellow dude.

He has to be mellow at 14 litres 02 setting. Helped a friend cover his trailer which has developed a leak in this monsoon we are having (30 inches of snow in the mountains and another day to go). He says tomorrow.

BTW....This is the only bike I have bought new.

[SP33DY]

Tap the dowel for a 5/16" bolt, preferably with a bottoming tap. Use a short bolt and a stack of washers to pull the dowel.

[fbn ent]

Tap the dowel for a 5/16" bolt, preferably with a bottoming tap. Use a short bolt and a stack of washers to pull the dowel.

Yeah, I have an old SE cam plate that will work great as a puller plate. I was thinking 5/16 or 8mm. Thanks Speedy. This thing is a beatch!

[SP33DY]

Sometimes I have been lucky enough to have the dowel break loose while I was tapping it. Then it came right out!

[fbn ent]

Tap the dowel for a 5/16" bolt, preferably with a bottoming tap. Use a short bolt and a stack of washers to pull the dowel.

Ding, ding, ding!!! Winner, winner, chicken dinner!!!  I don't know why this was so hard for me. Old age suxs. Had my first good sleep since this problem surfaced. Now to get the $5 new dowels from the dealer a couple hundred miles away. I scuffed them up too bad to reuse them. Thanks SP33DY

[Ohio HD]

Good job, and great idea from SP33DY.

Which one was this? The right side of the cam chest or the left one at the two o-rings?

[fbn ent]

Good job, and great idea from SP33DY.

Which one was this? The right side of the cam chest or the left one at the two o-rings?

Both    Just putting it back together now. If I had known about this it would have been WAY easier to be proactive for sure.

[Ohio HD]

Both    Just putting it back together now. If I had known about this it would have been WAY easier to be proactive for sure.

Ok, double trouble. So is it safe to say this is why the oil wasn't building pressure? 

[fbn ent]

Both    Just putting it back together now. If I had known about this it would have been WAY easier to be proactive for sure.

Ok, double trouble. So is it safe to say this is why the oil wasn't building pressure? 

It is a real possibility. I had made longer bolts and caught enough threads to get 75 inch pounds or so Loctited. I hoped they would be okay...nope. This bike is fighting me hard. Working on it used to be second nature but now I'm really wondering about my freeking brain...  

[FSG]

I've installed studs in the three cam chests I've opened since reading the info on HTT...

   good man 

[Hilly13]

I've had so much resistance from people on the need to do this when changing cams for them, apparently HD know their stuff, yet I'm changing the cams and tuning it, go figure!