Pierced drive belt 1995 FLHT – Advice from H-D & HTT

[GeoRocket]

Hello Everyone –

Bad luck.  A small sharp rock pierced my drive belt last week.

Bike is 1995 FLHT I've owned since new with 75k miles.  Stone stock.  Original belt and pulleys.  Belt and pulley's look good – very little wear.  This is the 1.5" wide belt.  I don't beat on this bike.

The rock was ¼" – 5/16" and was fully through the belt.  I carefully removed the rock.  See pic.  As you can see the edges of the belt are intact.  I estimate that the belt is about 15-20% reduced in at the puncture.  I have ridden the bike about 50 miles after removing the rock and the hole does not seem to be getting bigger.   No strange noises.  I did search the HTT site and found some good information but I have specific questions.

First: I had heard that H-D had advice/recommendations on belt damage, but my FSM offers none.  Does anyone have the H-D FSM advice regarding belt damage for later model bikes, preferably bikes with 1.5" wide belts?  What does H-D recommend?

Second: For those who have experienced this – what is your advice?   I understand that this means I'll replace the belt sooner rather than later, but I'm trying to understand the urgency.   Should I ride it and carefully monitor the hole?  Your experience is much appreciated.

Thanks much folks!  George

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[14Frisco]

Second: For those who have experienced this – what is your advice?   I understand that this means I'll replace the belt sooner rather than later, but I'm trying to understand the urgency.   Should I ride it and carefully monitor the hole?  Your experience is much appreciated.

I have experienced this - over 15 years ago with my 1994 FLHR I noticed a rock had pierced the original OEM drive belt. Like you, I pushed the rock out.  Belt is still on my bike and I keep my fingers crossed that if/when it breaks that I will be within towing distance to home so I can fix it myself. I put it on my list to replace, along with the sprockets, whenever I take the inner primary off. So, if I were you I would just run it and be happy.

[Fugawee]

I have experienced it also on a 1994 FLHTC...
I rode the Bike from the Northeast to Biketoberfest in Florida with some other Guys.
In Florida I picked up a rock in a Bar's gravel parking lot.
The rock pierced right thru the Belt dead-center.
That was the first Bike that I had a Rear Belt Drive on.
Many Guys told Me that as long as it was not on the edge of the Belt...I would be OK.
So, I took their advice...whether good, or bad and just rode it.  Screw it.
I really didn't want the Bike tied up at a Dealer's or Indy Shop for who knows how long.
Not to mention the Expense at the time.
If the Belt had broken...that may have been a different story.
That happened on the 3rd day I was there.  Still had 4 days left there, plus a couple of days to ride back Home.
I didn't do anything but keep an eye on it, and rode all around Florida; as well as back up to the Northeast on it.
I didn't feel all that comfortable with the thoughts in the back of My head about riding the Bike with the Belt that way.  Bad Vibes.
But I did...and made it Home.
Shortly after I got Home, I replaced the Belt just for My own piece of mind.
Probably could have gone with that Belt a while longer...but I didn't need any possible problems on the Road.
I consider Myself lucky about that whole ordeal.
I generally don't have a lot of good luck.
I still have that Bike as well as a newer FLHTCU.

[thumpr54]

I have a similar situation on 2009 FLHR....yours is more towards the edge than mine but mine has been that way for some time/miles......as said...keep an eye on it....maybe check it every few hundred miles and if no change then check every 5 hundred or so  until you see if it changes....you'll get a feel and become more comfortable with it as you get more miles on it....then when it's time to have the inner primary off for whatever reason...that's the time to change it....if you see it deteriorating then get after it pronto.....and if it really bothers you change it for peace of mind....

[Hossamania]

60/40 on changing it. That belt is almost 30 years old. With a hole in it. A hole that is kind of close to the edge.
What kind of riding do you do? Mostly local? Or further from home? Either way, 60/40.
Do a thorough inspection of the pulleys. Even if they look good, look closely for "hooking" on the teeth.

[roadkingdresser]

Not saying to change it or not. A friend had a 95 flht I believe and he lived on a road that was freshly tarred and chipped his belt looked like a piece of swiss cheese and he rode that thing till he wore a brand new tire out. We switched it to a chain drive till he sold it. Good luck on whatever you decide!

[02roadcling]

I would just ride it until it is obviously time to change it, which might not even happen.
Question: Do you still have your belt guard on? Quite a few guys had holes due to a rock getting trapped until they lost the guards.

   cling

[motorhogman]

I say ride it.. My belt has over 120,000 mi on it and coming up on 23 years.  When it had less than 10,000 mi on it I had a piece of debris get stuck near the trans pulley. I was on a trip up in Maine. Had the dealer in Bangor look at it and he said I should change it asap.. It's had a line gouged in it the full circumference since then. Belt gets cleaned and checked at every rear tire change. Just did one a few weeks ago. No change in the appearance. I'll run this belt until it shows signs of fraying or cracks. All depends on your driving style..

[Hossamania]

A friend had a hole in his belt, "just ride it, it will be fine". Two weeks later it broke leaving a stoplight.
Not to say yours will, and sometimes even undamaged belts break under normal riding conditions. It's a crap shoot.
I've broken 2 belts. The belts were not at fault.

[calif phil]

See them quite often with rock holes and no problems, but if it was my bike, it would worry the heck out of me and a new S&S belt and an OEM rear pully would be on my to do list.

[smoserx1]

I'm not going to tell you what to do either.  The original belt on my bike looked horrible at 86000 miles. The teeth as well as the pulleys were very badly worn, especially the front pulley.  I installed a new OEM belt & pulleys, these all wore pretty good but that second belt snapped clean at about 70000 miles.  All I did was put the bike in 1st gear when it failed.  The teeth on that belt and both pulleys looked fine.  Once again I replaced all 3 items.  Now the belt & pulleys have about 80000 on them and all look fantastic. 

[fbn ent]

Well George, my first take on it is that it isn't in the middle of the belt which would be okay. I punched one out of the center on my 1 1/2" belt with no issues. I rode almost 1500 miles with about quarter of the teeth either broken or missing so the belts are tough. If you want to make the season with it before you change it and the pulley(s), keep it properly adjusted and try no to beat it. If you aren't doing any big trips it will probably be just fine. If you are, if it was me, I'd have AMA just in case. 

[guido4198]

I find the posts from folks who experienced similar damage and continued to ride with the damaged belt to be enlightening. Who knew..?? Thank you
I wouldn't run that damaged belt any further than I had to before replacing it. If my belt had a hole in it...I'd be obsessing over that issue every time I threw my leg over the bike and headed out. That's just me, but you asked.
I've had 2 belt failures on The Moonraker, my 1985 FXRS. Both were away from home. In one case I was close enough to home to get a Brother out with a trailer and pick me up.   The other happened late at night in ( literally...) BFE. OK, actually in B.F. South Carolina, late, on a Sunday night, 300 mi. from home.    THAT got real expensive, real fast.
Again, that's just me, but you asked.

[smoserx1]

My service manual essentially says OK to run if stone damage is in center (keep an eye on it) & replace if damage is on edge.  Your damage appears not quite on the edge  I would monitor it for now, if the belt has an undamaged cord between the damage & the outside edge you are probably in pretty good shape.  FWIW Harley used to sell an emergency "repair kit" which was basically a belt splice and some attaching hardware.  Anybody remember those?  I never heard anyone discuss them and it looks like their availability may be long gone.

[Hossamania]

I do remember those belt repair kits, only heard of one or two people on this site over the years actually using one. Those were for the wider belts.
As far as emergency tow services, AAA Premium (RV) has always gotten me home, always hear good things about them from others. With other roadside services, HOG, insurance providers, etc., not so much.

[Fugawee]

Yes...I remember the Emergency Belt Repair Kits.
There was a time when the Guys that I did any Distance Riding with thought about pitching in on one of those, just in-case.
But We never did.
If My memory serves me correct...they weren't too cheap.
I don't know of anyone that actually used one.
I have been with a couple of Guys that broke a Belt.
Most times when the Belt broke, they were either taking off from a dead stop, or up-shifting to 2nd, or 3rd gear.
I was a little "nervous" about Mine having a hole in it and having the Belt break doing the same thing.
Especially on the Interstate in a Traffic Jam, or when taking off or leaving a Toll Booth, etc.
The idea of the Bike just going to a slow roll, and not having a Belt on there to get a move on, doesn't sit well in My feeble brain.
To give credit where it is due...I put pretty close to 3000 miles on My Belt with a hole in it.
It got Me around Florida and Home.  So, I can't bitch about that.
These days...I'm not so sure that I would do that without replacing it.
The Older I get...the Less aggravation I like.
Problems that I have had with Bikes and Vehicles seem to happen at the worst possible time.
I don't need the hassle.
To replace, or not to replace the Belt?  That is the Question.
Let Your Conscience, and How Lucky You are be Your Guide.
Good Luck!

[Hossamania]

All decisions are economic.

[Fugawee]

Not that I have really have anything Bad to say about a Rear Belt Drive...but I found it much easier to have a couple of spare Master Chain Links with You if, and when Your Chain decided not to cooperate.
My 2nd HD, a 74' XLH...I rode that Bike for a few years with two Master Links in the Chain.
Couldn't afford a New Chain at the time...due to Modest Income.
Master Links were cheap.

[Hossamania]

Chains are nice, but a pain in the ashe. They have their place and have worked for a century or more, but we are a maintenance free society and don't like to fiddle with stuff. Belts last a long time, we only hear about failures, which are few and far between. Batteries cause far more problems.

[motorhogman]

My service manual essentially says OK to run if stone damage is in center (keep an eye on it) & replace if damage is on edge.  Your damage appears not quite on the edge  I would monitor it for now, if the belt has an undamaged cord between the damage & the outside edge you are probably in pretty good shape.  FWIW Harley used to sell an emergency "repair kit" which was basically a belt splice and some attaching hardware.  Anybody remember those?  I never heard anyone discuss them and it looks like their availability may be long gone.

I do remember those.. A friend of mine broke a belt while up at Laconia one year.. He had trailered his bike up to Laconia so he drove over to a dealer in VT that had one of those. We followed the instructions to a T installing it.. Got about 50 mi out of it before it started to come apart.. Waste of $$

[GeoRocket]

Hi All -

OP here.  Thanks much for all of the excellent feedback and experience.  Much appreciated.
I have already started to put together my parts and tools list to replace the belt.  I will study the FSM as well.
Unfortunately this job is complicated by a new oil leak coming from the trans or primary in the area of the transmission mainshaft.  It is very slight and only occurs after riding.  I am working to determine the source of the leak now, and I'll start another thread on the leak topic when I know a bit more.  (Thanks in advance!)  Because the leak is so slight I was initially not planning to address it, but with this belt damage I have 2 reasons to pull the primary.

To answer some of your questions...
- The stone guard is in place.
- I like to tour on this bike and took it to CO & NM from Detroit area last fall.  I am not planning any long trips until I get this belt sorted.  I'm too old for unnecessary drama far from home, and I want to fix this myself (carefully, properly).
- I have heard of the "Emergency Belt Repair" kits.  I recall that they were expensive and they're no longer available.  (I never thought one was necessary.)

Oh, and I did find guidance from H-D on belt damage on the interweb.  It seems H-D recommends "Replace belt if damage is on the edge."  Interesting that H-D does not recommend replacing the belt, although I think this table 1-9 is for the newer belts which are narrower and carbon fiber (vs Kevlar).     

Thanks much Everyone and please ride safe.

George
 

[fbn ent]

FYI, I just replaced mine on the'02 Road Glide. One tooth was turned. Did both pulleys also. In my experience, do not go cheap on the belt. I have used aftermarket and OEM. I found the aftermarket to soften up (at least the ones I used). This time I am running a S&S as I went to a 1 1/8" belt. I also have had no luck with other than OEM rear pulleys. They have gotten squeaky. I only use Andrews or OEM fronts. Some of those less expensive ones are made from aluminum and they don't last for 

P.S. I think you are making the right decision. You would always be seeing that hole....

[Fugawee]

Seeing that You are thinking about doing this Job Yourself...I would suggest that if You are going to totally remove the Swing-Arm, You may want to give a good look at all the Small Stuff in that Area.
Such as the Pivot Shaft, Rubber Mounts, Bushings, etc.
As well as the Swing-Arm for cracks, and wear at the area the Rear Axle goes thru, the Adjusters, and all the other Parts in that neighborhood.  Only suggestions.

[Hossamania]

My service manual essentially says OK to run if stone damage is in center (keep an eye on it) & replace if damage is on edge.  Your damage appears not quite on the edge  I would monitor it for now, if the belt has an undamaged cord between the damage & the outside edge you are probably in pretty good shape.  FWIW Harley used to sell an emergency "repair kit" which was basically a belt splice and some attaching hardware.  Anybody remember those?  I never heard anyone discuss them and it looks like their availability may be long gone.

I do remember those.. A friend of mine broke a belt while up at Laconia one year.. He had trailered his bike up to Laconia so he drove over to a dealer in VT that had one of those. We followed the instructions to a T installing it.. Got about 50 mi out of it before it started to come apart.. Waste of $$

That's actually all they were rated for, about 50 miles of very easy riding to get to a shop. Or to a main road to get help.

[Hossamania]

Checking for a crack on the swingarm is a very good idea,they are known to crack on the pulley side at the adjuster.

[Hossamania]

Just sayin'.
 It's on my list to clean up that weld. For the last 15 years. My neighbor only had some 3/4" wrought iron to use, so that's what it got.

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[FSG]

just for interest .....

-J00090   SECONDARY BELT EMERGENCY KIT

-J02189   EMERGENCY DRIVE BELT REPLACEMENT KIT


both long time obsolete although I'm sure there's some kicking around on eBay 

[motorhogman]

My service manual essentially says OK to run if stone damage is in center (keep an eye on it) & replace if damage is on edge.  Your damage appears not quite on the edge  I would monitor it for now, if the belt has an undamaged cord between the damage & the outside edge you are probably in pretty good shape.  FWIW Harley used to sell an emergency "repair kit" which was basically a belt splice and some attaching hardware.  Anybody remember those?  I never heard anyone discuss them and it looks like their availability may be long gone.

I do remember those.. A friend of mine broke a belt while up at Laconia one year.. He had trailered his bike up to Laconia so he drove over to a dealer in VT that had one of those. We followed the instructions to a T installing it.. Got about 50 mi out of it before it started to come apart.. Waste of $$

That's actually all they were rated for, about 50 miles of very easy riding to get to a shop. Or to a main road to get help.

Like I said a WASTE of $$..

[Deye76]

My friend put one of those emergency belts coming from Daytona one year, made it 500 miles home, then the rest of the summer. 
"The emergency belt allows the rider to
ride the motorcycle to the nearest (less than 200 miles)
Harley-Davidson service facility"

Whoever said 50 miles, maybe they were thinking about donut spare tires.

[motorhogman]

My friend put one of those emergency belts coming from Daytona one year, made it 500 miles home, then the rest of the summer. 
"The emergency belt allows the rider to
ride the motorcycle to the nearest (less than 200 miles)
Harley-Davidson service facility"

Whoever said 50 miles, maybe they were thinking about donut spare tires.

LOL..  I sure know we expected more than the miniscule amount of mi we got out of the one we installed.

[GeoRocket]

Hello Everyone –

I'm coming back to HTT for your advice and experience regarding replacement of my drive belt.  1995 FLHT with 75kmi.  I'm the original owner.  Bike has been well maintained and not abused.

I picked up a small stone earlier this spring and pierced the drive belt so I'm not going to take any long trips until I replace it.  https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,120261.0.html

I also developed a small leak coming from the front pulley area this spring, so I have 2 reasons to do this repair sooner rather than later.  The leak is from the primary side and is just a few drops after a ride.  I determined this using UV dye.  I think this is good news as it means my inner primary bearing race has not walked to the right, and that the transmission seals are not leaking.

I have acquired the new HD parts and plan to replace the belt and both pulleys.  I have the FSM.  I am trying to pull together the custom tools I will need.

I have a few questions please:

1. Do I need to remove the inner primary race in order to remove the transmission pulley?

2. Do I need to remove the inner primary race in order to remove/replace the "Oil Seal, mainshaft fifth gear" HD 12035B?  (I'm pretty sure the answer is yes.)

3. If I remove the inner primary bearing race, can I re-use it if it's not damaged?  Is it a matched set with the bearing?  It does not appear to be as it is sold separately.  BTW - I have no noises that would indicate a damaged inner primary bearing.

4. The leak is from the primary side, not from the transmission.  Do I need to replace all seals on the transmission side if they are NOT leaking?  I don't look forward to picking out the "Oil Seal, mainshaft fifth gear" HD 12035B and removing the inner primary race if I don't have to.

5. Can I work the new belt on without completely removing the rear fork (swing arm) by just tapping the pivot shaft to the right?  I have heard that this is possible.  I know that removing this shaft can be problematic on an older bike.

Of course I plan to inspect the rear fork and all rubber parts and I will replace parts as necessary.  I think that it's great that many parts are still available from HD. 
Any other advice?  Thanks much for your help with this!

George

[rigidthumper]

1. Do I need to remove the inner primary race in order to remove the transmission pulley?
No
2. Do I need to remove the inner primary race in order to remove/replace the "Oil Seal, mainshaft fifth gear" HD 12035B?  (I'm pretty sure the answer is yes.)
Yes
3. If I remove the inner primary bearing race, can I re-use it if it's not damaged?  Is it a matched set with the bearing?  It does not appear to be as it is sold separately.  BTW - I have no noises that would indicate a damaged inner primary bearing.
Yes, but inspect for wear. Not a matched set, but wear pattern do emerge.
4. The leak is from the primary side, not from the transmission.  Do I need to replace all seals on the transmission side if they are NOT leaking?  I don't look forward to picking out the "Oil Seal, mainshaft fifth gear" HD 12035B and removing the inner primary race if I don't have to.
No, but I always replace the shifter shaft seal, because they tend to leak. A lot.
5. Can I work the new belt on without completely removing the rear fork (swing arm) by just tapping the pivot shaft to the right?  I have heard that this is possible.  I know that removing this shaft can be problematic on an older bike.

Yes, there will be enough of a gap on the primary side once the mount/rubber are removed- take care not to fold the belt- that will kill it's life span.

[RKRuss]

I was pretty lucky with my 2000 Road King. Bought it second hand in 2002 and the first time I washed it I noticed a small stone stuck in a hole, pretty much in the centre of the belt. I removed the stone and promptly sourced a new genuine belt for the replacement of that holed belt, which I was convinced was going to snap at any moment.

Yep, that new belt is still in it's box in a cupboard and the holed belt is still on the bike to this day. It's now covered 180,000 kms!

[GeoRocket]

rigidthumper - Thanks much for the specific answers.  Very helpful!
RKRuss - Thanks for that information.  The hole in my belt is not getting bigger after 800 miles or so.  I will likely wait until fall or spring or....
I appreciate the guidance and everyone at HTT!!
Be safe out there.  And in the shop too.
George

[pauly]

Hi Georocket,
If it was me, that little voice in the back of my head would be saying "hope that belt doesn't break", about every 200 meters, and I'd just have to change it! Expensive job though, because when you look at the bearings and seals you "may as well replace while you're in there", and the cost of pulleys, it really adds up!

Thanks
Pauly

rigidthumper - Thanks much for the specific answers.  Very helpful!
RKRuss - Thanks for that information.  The hole in my belt is not getting bigger after 800 miles or so.  I will likely wait until fall or spring or....
I appreciate the guidance and everyone at HTT!!
Be safe out there.  And in the shop too.
George