103 vs 107 build advice needed

[Adam76]

Hello,
I have a riding buddy (not on the forums) that has a 2016 Softail Deluxe. His current set up is a/c, maximus tuner and freedom 30" true dual shark tail exhaust, stage 1 download (yes I know it's a poor exhaust choice, but he doesn't really want to change them if possible. Maybe Freedom 2-2 is also a possibility)...

Is a 107" and cams with stock heads a waste of $$$ ?

Should he stay at 103" and just do cams and a good tune?

Or is 103" plus cams and a valve job (no porting) + cc'ing the heads for added compression a better option?

I'm not even sure what I'd do if it were my bike?

Thanks for any suggestions.

[Hossamania]

What's his budget? How does he want to ride it?
The 103 is a decent motor, cams and a tune would probably be the best bang for the buck.
Don't over cam the motor, get cams to match his riding style.
If he is not hot rodding, head work probably isn't necessary as far as money spent, unless a lot of miles on the motor and could benefit from a refresh.

[Ohio HD]

Truthfully he'd benefit greatly from at least a cleanup of the ports and a 1.9" intake valve put in the heads. The sheet below is a 107" with stock heads. Cams are Andrews 55's, and 10.5:1 compression. The stock heads really limit what the motor will make.

Improved flow by some head work will add HP as well as torque along the entire RPM range. If it were me, I'd wait until the head work is in the budget.

Also if someone besides me tuned the bike, maybe we would see 105hp or so.


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[Adam76]

What's his budget? How does he want to ride it?
The 103 is a decent motor, cams and a tune would probably be the best bang for the buck.
Don't over cam the motor, get cams to match his riding style.
If he is not hot rodding, head work probably isn't necessary as far as money spent, unless a lot of miles on the motor and could benefit from a refresh.

Thanks Hoss, riding style is mainly cruising but does get on it a bit to pass the odd truck on the highway.

His bike has only done 20,000 miles so probably doesn't "need" a freshen up unless it's just for increasing to a 107"

If it were cams only, I'd say maybe the S&S 583 ?

[Adam76]

Truthfully he'd benefit greatly from at least a cleanup of the ports and a 1.9" intake valve put in the heads.... The stock heads really limit what the motor will make.

Improved flow by some head work will add HP as well as torque along the entire RPM range. If it were me, I'd wait until the head work is in the budget.

Thanks Ohio,

I definitely agree that if going to 107 then headwork will really make it worth while.... but if staying at 103" ,  how much will headwork really add? If yes,  what would be a good choice of matching cams?

[boooby1744]

With that exhaust,it would be a good idea to lower overall gearing.

[Adam76]

With that exhaust,it would be a good idea to lower overall gearing.

Thanks, you mean at the primary or the rear sprocket?
What is the best gearing set up?

[Ohio HD]

Thanks Ohio,

I definitely agree that if going to 107 then headwork will really make it worth while.... but if staying at 103" ,  how much will headwork really add? If yes,  what would be a good choice of matching cams?

Improved flow helps with all motor sizes.

[Rockout Rocker Products]

Don't do like me & choose the 107.


 Then 110. 

[Hossamania]

For me, cam choice on a stock 103 is the CR 570-2. Good low and mid range, pulls nicely to the top.
Lots of good choices though.
And of course, a good tune is the key.

[Finn]

For me, cam choice on a stock 103 is the CR 570-2. Good low and mid range, pulls nicely to the top.
Lots of good choices though.
And of course, a good tune is the key.

"Hear, hear!"

[hrdtail78]

I would recommend 103 and head work.  Valve job, pocket porting and set the CC to what you want based on cam  choice.

Even if he isn't trying to bang of the rev limiter.  The worked heads will bring in lower RPM tq as well.

[harpwrench]

I definitely agree that if going to 107 then headwork will really make it worth while.... but if staying at 103" ,  how much will headwork really add? If yes,  what would be a good choice of matching cams?

Here's my 103 with S&S 570's and true duals at 30K, stock pistons, just added headwork, throttle body, and trimmed cyls to zero deck. 1.865/1.585 valves, compression 10.4

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[boooby1744]

With that exhaust,it would be a good idea to lower overall gearing.

Thanks, you mean at the primary or the rear sprocket?
What is the best gearing set up?

a 31 tooth Andrews front pulley will give you 3% increase. An Evolution industries 49 tooth clutch basket  ring gear is almost 6%. Depends how much you want to spend among things.

[Adam76]

I would recommend 103 and head work.  Valve job, pocket porting and set the CC to what you want based on cam  choice.

Even if he isn't trying to bang of the rev limiter.  The worked heads will bring in lower RPM tq as well.

Thanks, looks like headwork is more important than a few extra cubes.

With these softail true duals, what cams would you suggest be a good match?

Thanks

[Adam76]

With that exhaust,it would be a good idea to lower overall gearing.

Thanks, you mean at the primary or the rear sprocket?
What is the best gearing set up?

a 31 tooth Andrews front pulley will give you 3% increase. An Evolution industries 49 tooth clutch basket  ring gear is almost 6%. Depends how much you want to spend among things.

Thanks, it's hard to tell whether 3% or 6% is right when I've only ridden a bike with stock gearing..... Which one would you suggest? Thanks

[harpwrench]

My gut feeling is that if he doesn't want to ditch the fishtails then he would be happy with a 110 kit with S&S 585's, run the heads stock. GMR Steve did a bunch of them and felt it was the best bang for the buck. Made very strong torque in the low-mid range

[Adam76]

My gut feeling is that if he doesn't want to ditch the fishtails then he would be happy with a 110 kit with S&S 585's, run the heads stock. GMR Steve did a bunch of them and felt it was the best bang for the buck. Made very strong torque in the low-mid range

Thanks harpwrench,

The 110" kit makes good sense --  if doing a big bore kit.

But with only cams +/- headwork, what do you think of the S&S 583 cams?? Would they be a good match for the fishtails??

[harpwrench]

I wouldn't think so, it closes the intake pretty early and holds the exhaust open pretty late. So possibly cranking compression issues and amplified reversion effect if the fishtails don't play nice. Maybe I would would stick SE255's in it but I'm not an expert with softails or fishtails:)

[Ohio HD]

If you're just looking to keep it simple for now, I agree with keeping it a 103". As well if the heads aren't in the budget, stick an Andrews 48 in there. It won't be a power house, but it'll move pretty good.


https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,103352.0.html

[Adam76]

If you're just looking to keep it simple for now, I agree with keeping it a 103". As well if the heads aren't in the budget, stick an Andrews 48 in there. It won't be a power house, but it'll move pretty good.


https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,103352.0.html

Thanks Ohio,

If he stays at 103 but could afford mild headwork, what cams would you suggest other than the 48's ?
Cheers

[Adam76]

I wouldn't think so, it closes the intake pretty early and holds the exhaust open pretty late. So possibly cranking compression issues and amplified reversion effect if the fishtails don't play nice. Maybe I would would stick SE255's in it but I'm not an expert with softails or fishtails:)

OK thanks. I thought the 583 cams were specifically designed as a bolt in cam for the 103 ?? I could be wrong.
Cheers

[Ohio HD]

Thanks Ohio,

If he stays at 103 but could afford mild headwork, what cams would you suggest other than the 48's ?
Cheers

I don't see anything wrong with the sheet that harpwrench posted. The 570 cams will give a little broader range than the 585 cams will. As he stated the true duals with fishtails can cause havoc with the tune. But if that's what the guy wants, he may not see the full potential of what ever is used. The truth shows up in the tuning.

[Jim Bronson]

My gut feeling is that if he doesn't want to ditch the fishtails then he would be happy with a 110 kit with S&S 585's, run the heads stock. GMR Steve did a bunch of them and felt it was the best bang for the buck. Made very strong torque in the low-mid range

That's what I did to my dyna. It was a stock 88, so the bump in torque was major as long as I keep the revs up.

[harpwrench]

This is an interesting dyno thread with freedom fishtails, there's a couple video links to check and see if they're the same as yours

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,77305.msg851737.html#msg851737

[Adam76]

Thanks Ohio,

If he stays at 103 but could afford mild headwork, what cams would you suggest other than the 48's ?
Cheers

As he stated the true duals with fishtails can cause havoc with the tune. But if that's what the guy wants, he may not see the full potential of what ever is used. The truth shows up in the tuning.

Agreed. I think I might just suggest Andrews 48 cams only at this stage and see how he likes it.

Thanks guys

[IronButt70]

Thanks Ohio,

If he stays at 103 but could afford mild headwork, what cams would you suggest other than the 48's ?
Cheers

As he stated the true duals with fishtails can cause havoc with the tune. But if that's what the guy wants, he may not see the full potential of what ever is used. The truth shows up in the tuning.

Agreed. I think I might just suggest Andrews 48 cams only at this stage and see how he likes it.

Thanks guys

I have a set of TTS100 cams that I pulled from my 103 softail that your friend can try if he'd like. Just pay for shipping. It's a little known cam but work very well in a 103. They have about 50k miles on them but the lobes look very good with no pitting or scratches. Let me know.

[hrdtail78]

I would use the 555tq cam from Tman.  Proven low end tq provider.  A cam closing any sooner is not going to produce any noticeable more tq with exhaust choice.  Slightly decking heads and thinner HG and you can get the CCP of a 20 something close, but why?  Overlap will allow it to carry out further as well.  Once again how far it carries out is gonna be based on exhaust.

Goal would be match cam with my assumed power curve of pipe and hope the cam puts up a good fight to broaden it as much as possible.

Stock cable driven TB?

[Adam76]

I would use the 555tq cam from Tman.  Proven low end tq provider.  A cam closing any sooner is not going to produce any noticeable more tq with exhaust choice.  Slightly decking heads and thinner HG and you can get the CCP of a 20 something close, but why?  Overlap will allow it to carry out further as well.  Once again how far it carries out is gonna be based on exhaust.

Goal would be match cam with my assumed power curve of pipe and hope the cam puts up a good fight to broaden it as much as possible.

Stock cable driven TB?

Thanks Hrdtail, that's good advice - matching the cams to the exhaust is something I'm trying to do.

I think 2016 came out with TBW as far as I know.
Cheers

[hrdtail78]

Off the top of my head.  I believe it does have the 50mm TBW.

[Adam76]

Off the top of my head.  I believe it does have the 50mm TBW.

 

[Adam76]

If you're just looking to keep it simple for now, I agree with keeping it a 103". As well if the heads aren't in the budget, stick an Andrews 48 in there. It won't be a power house, but it'll move pretty good.

Would mild headwork really improve this result with the 48s ??  Or if headwork is in the budget, should we be looking at a different cam?

The 2 charts below has 48s with mild headwork, and the other one stock 103" with a good tune.... There's really not that much difference between the two, I'm wondering if just cams is really worth it??

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,103352.0.html

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?msg=1283645

[FXDBI]

If you're just looking to keep it simple for now, I agree with keeping it a 103". As well if the heads aren't in the budget, stick an Andrews 48 in there. It won't be a power house, but it'll move pretty good.

Would mild headwork really improve this result with the 48s ??  Or if headwork is in the budget, should we be looking at a different cam?

The thread below has 48s with mild headwork, and doesn't look that much better that some of the charts in the dyno section with just 48s, stock heads and a good tune?

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,103352.0.html

Well mild head work opens a lot of doors, H-D 110 drop on kit just the jugs and pistons, heads cleaned up set to 83cc with 585 easy starts is pretty good bang for your buck. Whats the plan on tune?  Bob

[Adam76]

If you're just looking to keep it simple for now, I agree with keeping it a 103". As well if the heads aren't in the budget, stick an Andrews 48 in there. It won't be a power house, but it'll move pretty good.

Would mild headwork really improve this result with the 48s ??  Or if headwork is in the budget, should we be looking at a different cam?

The thread below has 48s with mild headwork, and doesn't look that much better that some of the charts in the dyno section with just 48s, stock heads and a good tune?

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,103352.0.html

Well mild head work opens a lot of doors, H-D 110 drop on kit just the jugs and pistons, heads cleaned up set to 83cc with 585 easy starts is pretty good bang for your buck. Whats the plan on tune?  Bob

Hi Bob, no budget for the 110"and 585 plus headwork... Tune is Maximus Direct Link.

I'm just wondering what the best bang for the buck is, because it seems the TC 103"HO motors respond so well to just a stage 1 and a good tune..... Makes me think twice about adding cams and even mild headwork, if you know what I'm saying.

Cheers

[Hilly13]

Thing to remember Adam is you don't ride that dyno WOT graph, I know you know that, porting for a target is always worth it but given he is set on them pipes go with what Jason says, he has tuned more of them than we have ever ridden combined.

Added, I've tuned a few stock cam bikes for mates that were hell bent on cams until they rode it tuned, tuned a few cam only ones as well, big smiles all round, are you road tuning it or got a dyno man on hand?

[Adam76]

Thing to remember Adam is you don't ride that dyno WOT graph, I know you know that, porting for a target is always worth it but given he is set on them pipes go with what Jason says, he has tuned more of them than we have ever ridden combined.

Added, I've tuned a few stock cam bikes for mates that were hell bent on cams until they rode it tuned, tuned a few cam only ones as well, big smiles all round, are you road tuning it or got a dyno man on hand?

I lost the great tuner in my city, but yes I will get it tuned by a pro on the dyno.

I think I know what you're saying. Just a simple cam and tune, or go all out with a big bore and heads.

I think he'll be happy with just cams. Remind me again, what Jason suggest??
Cheers

[Hilly13]

Post 27 is my referral, the HO cam tuned is decent but if you have to pay for a tune chucking the best fit cam in first makes sense to me.

[Hossamania]

#1: Set the budget. This will determine the next steps.

Best bang for the buck is a moving target. First, the buck to be spent has to be determined.

[Adam76]

Post 27 is my referral, the HO cam tuned is decent but if you have to pay for a tune chucking the best fit cam in first makes sense to me.

That's good advice. And you agree that the Tman TQ555 cams are the best fit?
Cheers

[Adam76]

#1: Set the budget. This will determine the next steps.

Best bang for the buck is a moving target. First, the buck to be spent has to be determined.

Thanks Hoss. There was no real budget set, it was more a case of stay at 103" and keep it simple or do a 107" and for a whole bunch of extra money, how much more will he actually gain?  Especially given the poor exhaust choice.

Thanks. 

[Hossamania]

My budget was set by the statement: I know I can't beat everybody, but I have to beat my friends.

The shop said, "we have a package for that."
They did.

Maybe more than setting the budget, setting the goal of performance wanted is key.

[Adam76]

My budget was set by the statement: I know I can't beat everybody, but I have to beat my friends.

The shop said, "we have a package for that."
They did.

Maybe more than setting the budget, setting the goal of performance wanted is key.

Yeah, I see your point. Maybe I've been looking at it back to front.

My statement would be: "I want the bike to run significantly better than stock stage 1 to make the effort and $$$ worthwhile"....

If that means cams only, great.
If it means cams and mild headwork, great.
If it means the only way is to go to a well designed 107" package, then I will understand the choices properly.

Thanks.

[Hossamania]

With that in mind, and trying to keep the budget in mind, I would go with head work and cams to match. Choose cams to match the riding style, not chasing Dyno numbers. Going with a bigger bore does not add a lot of money to the build, but it does cause budget creep, and potential issues if not done properly. You've been down this road and understand budget creep.
Good luck, let us know how it works out.

[Hilly13]

Post 27 is my referral, the HO cam tuned is decent but if you have to pay for a tune chucking the best fit cam in first makes sense to me.

That's good advice. And you agree that the Tman TQ555 cams are the best fit?
Cheers

I don't know if they are the best fit for your mate's expectations but the reasons he mentioned that cam are sound, you could run a few cams in there, all would be an improvement if tuned right, what Hoss said above is logical as well but exhaust choice has to be factored in, if he wants to keep it how it is I personally wouldn't spend on more than a cam and tune.

[Adam76]

Post 27 is my referral, the HO cam tuned is decent but if you have to pay for a tune chucking the best fit cam in first makes sense to me.

That's good advice. And you agree that the Tman TQ555 cams are the best fit?
Cheers

I don't know if they are the best fit for your mate's expectations but the reasons he mentioned that cam are sound, you could run a few cams in there, all would be an improvement if tuned right, what Hoss said above is logical as well but exhaust choice has to be factored in, if he wants to keep it how it is I personally wouldn't spend on more than a cam and tune.

Thanks, makes good sense.

[Adam76]

With that exhaust,it would be a good idea to lower overall gearing.

I'm looking at the Andrews 30T and the 31T  trans pulley.... what would you recommending for my application?

Thanks, I have never done any changes to gearing before, so this is new territory for me. 

[Hilly13]

30-70 makes it a different animal 😁

[Adam76]

30-70 makes it a different animal 😁

Thanks Hilly.

What is the 70 part, and does it require a belt change?

Can you just change the trans pulley only? Or do you have to do both?

Cheers
Cheers

[Adam76]

I would recommend 103 and head work.  Valve job, pocket porting and set the CC to what you want based on cam  choice.

Even if he isn't trying to bang of the rev limiter.  The worked heads will bring in lower RPM tq as well.

Thanks.

This is the plan I will suggest.
Since we will probably pull the heads anyway, we'll go with a valve job, cc'ing and pocket porting and a .030" HG to set compression.
I think your suggestion of the Tman 555TQ cams is probably what we'll go with as well.
possibly a gearing change with a 30T trans pully?
Then a good tune and he should be happy. 

Thanks

[Hilly13]

30-70 makes it a different animal 😁

Thanks Hilly.

What is the 70 part, and does it require a belt change?

Can you just change the trans pulley only? Or do you have to do both?

Cheers
Cheers

30 front 70 rear, you could do both or either only but both is better, if both I used my stock belt so assume it would be the same for other models, just one might require a different belt, not sure there.

[hogmandon]

Not offering any build info but I ran a 590 cam with stock springs and broke a spring what a mess it made. Harley said good for 600 lift. Be careful with your choices.

[boooby1744]

With that exhaust,it would be a good idea to lower overall gearing.

I'm looking at the Andrews 30T and the 31T  trans pulley.... what would you recommending for my application?

Thanks, I have never done any changes to gearing before, so this is new territory for me. 

Go to the twin cam stickie and scroll to  how to gear down a 202 Heritage. That should give you most of the info you Red.

[Adam76]

With that exhaust,it would be a good idea to lower overall gearing.

I'm looking at the Andrews 30T and the 31T  trans pulley.... what would you recommending for my application?

Thanks, I have never done any changes to gearing before, so this is new territory for me. 

Go to the twin cam stickie and scroll to  how to gear down a 202 Heritage. That should give you most of the info you Red.

Thanks, I read the thread, good info.

I'm still confused which is the best way to lower gearing...

1. Andrews 30T trans sprocket and a new shorter 132T rear belt (quite costly) and do I need any other parts? bearing seals etc?
2. 30T Evo Industries compensator eliminator sprocket and chain (also costly)
3. simply add a larger 70T rear wheel belt pulley? (may not make enough diffrence?)

Thanks

[boooby1744]

I figure the 31 tooth pulley is the least expensive. You'll still need to at least remove the inner and outer primary. No easy or inexpensive way out.

[Adam76]

I figure the 31 tooth pulley is the least expensive. You'll still need to at least remove the inner and outer primary. No easy or inexpensive way out.

Thanks, that sounds like a good idea.

Besides the inner primary seal?  mainshaft seal? anything else / parts needed to do the job?

Cheers

[JSD]

You can fit a 30 trans. Each tooth up or down moves axle 1/8". I have fitted 30 to 34 on bikes. Good time to replace primary bearing and do some mode to the stupid chain tensioner.

[Adam76]

You can fit a 30 trans. Each tooth up or down moves axle 1/8". I have fitted 30 to 34 on bikes. Good time to replace primary bearing and do some mode to the stupid chain tensioner.

Thanks JSD, that's great that a new belt may not be required if I have half inch play at the rear axle.

This bike has only done 20K miles, so you think it's necessary to replace inner primary bearing??

Cheers

[RTMike]

Ok here is my opinion,#1 is TTS-150,10:1-10.3:1 compression,ported heads,58mm throttle body and larger injectors with a good exhaust system.
#2
T-Man 555,9.5-9.8:comp,stock or ported heads,throttle body and injectors with a good exhaust system.

The T-Man 555 is a very good bolt in cam with a good tune and a pipe,if your on a limited budget.

Remember is a large part the performance and curve on you bike and build,good luck MG

[JSD]

You can fit a 30 trans. Each tooth up or down moves axle 1/8". I have fitted 30 to 34 on bikes. Good time to replace primary bearing and do some mode to the stupid chain tensioner.

Thanks JSD, that's great that a new belt may not be required if I have half inch play at the rear axle.

This bike has only done 20K miles, so you think it's necessary to replace inner primary bearing??

Cheers

Your choice i would not expensive. At least the seal & starter seal. Tack weld chain adjuster or fit the limiter kit. A 48 Andrews cam tune he will be happy if thats his budget. No complaints just smiles if he does not want to frow $ at it cam & push rod kit aint cheap in OZ . Change over or get your own heads done from Ram or elsewhere is close to $1400 now. Throttle body & injectors etc you know how it goes and so $ quickly add up. Then a good set of lifters $400 and so it goes on. Times are tough and im finding most dont to spend. HD performance parts prices Suck in OZ . Best Adam later Mate

[Adam76]

You can fit a 30 trans. Each tooth up or down moves axle 1/8". I have fitted 30 to 34 on bikes. Good time to replace primary bearing and do some mode to the stupid chain tensioner.

Thanks JSD, that's great that a new belt may not be required if I have half inch play at the rear axle.

This bike has only done 20K miles, so you think it's necessary to replace inner primary bearing??

Cheers

Your choice i would not expensive. At least the seal & starter seal. Tack weld chain adjuster or fit the limiter kit. A 48 Andrews cam tune he will be happy if thats his budget. No complaints just smiles if he does not want to frow $ at it...
Times are tough and im finding most dont to spend. HD performance parts prices Suck in OZ . Best Adam later Mate

Thanks JSD, yes times are very tough and his budget is not huge. Only want to do what's necessity.

Can you please tell me what a starter seal is and also what is the limiter for the chain adjuster you have mentioned?

Cheers Adam

[JSD]

The seal in primary on starter shaft. Forget who makes the primary tab self adjuster its been posted here. Evolution Industry but it is Sunday morning.

[Hilly13]

They call it The Bump Stop and it's 70 greenbacks plus the ride.

[JSD]

Thanks Hilly . Evolution Industries ?

[Hilly13]

Thanks Hilly . Evolution Industries ?

Yes sir

[FSG]

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=117857.0

you can get the bump stop in Brissie for 105 skins

https://www.easyr.com.au/evolution-industries-evo-1070-1205-the-bump-stop-p


Personally I'd adjust the stocker to get it right then spot weld it so that it don't move 

[FSG]

not a real good pic (clipped from one of Rays) but like this I'd weld the stock tensioner

but then I've also tacked IPB races to mainshafts AND Sprocket Shaft Extensions to Stripped out rotors      

[FSG]

this one belongs to FXDBI and has been tig'd both sides   

[Hilly13]

Necessity is the mother of invention FSG 😁👍

[Adam76]

this one belongs to FXDBI and has been tig'd both sides   

Thanks FSG, for sharing that great info and the pics. 
Pictures always speak many words.

[Adam76]

Ok here is my opinion,#1 is TTS-150,10:1-10.3:1 compression,ported heads,58mm throttle body and larger injectors with a good exhaust system.
#2
T-Man 555,9.5-9.8:comp,stock or ported heads,throttle body and injectors with a good exhaust system.

The T-Man 555 is a very good bolt in cam with a good tune and a pipe,if your on a limited budget.

Remember is a large part the performance and curve on you bike and build,good luck MG

Thanks RT.

You mention the Tman555 - I'm assuming you mean the Tman555 Torqster?

Also, your last line you said "remember.... is a large part of the performance and curve on your build..." We're you referring to the exhaust??

Trying to match a good cam to a softail true dual exhaust system is the challenging part 

I'm starting to think that a cam only upgrade on these 103HO motors not worth the 5/ 5 gains over the fairly decent stock cam, and a good tune with the stock cams  is probably the best money spent??

[Hossamania]

Again, all depends on your budget and goals.

[Hossamania]

Should be able to get 10/10 or more out of a cam change

[Hilly13]

Cam change also (hopefully) adds a bit of longevity with new inner cam bearings, lifters and great tune 

[Adam76]

Should be able to get 10/10 or more out of a cam change

OK, thanks Hoss. Didn't think it would be that much.

[Adam76]

Cam change also (hopefully) adds a bit of longevity with new inner cam bearings, lifters and great tune 

Yeah, we were doing the inner cam bearing and lifters anyway....

[Hossamania]

Should be able to get 10/10 or more out of a cam change

OK, thanks Hoss. Didn't think it would be that much.

Of course exhaust will play a big part in this.

[Adam76]

Should be able to get 10/10 or more out of a cam change

OK, thanks Hoss. Didn't think it would be that much.

Of course exhaust will play a big part in this.

Well, we know what exhaust we're dealing with    Cobra softail true dual fishtails.

If I'm going to suggest a bolt in only camshaft,  it has to be one that will work best with the "not so great" exhaust. 

I'm not sure there is a better bolt in cam than the stock cam given the exhaust system.....  Maybe the Tman555 or the Andrews 48. But like I said,  not sure it's worth it with this exhaust, and $$ is tight at the moment.

Thanks.

[rigidthumper]

Tractor cams seem to work decent with "less than optimum" exhaust. Surprised at how well SE255 (stock CVO) or TTS100 work with Big Radius or V&H Softail duals in the normal riding range (1500-4000).

[Hossamania]

Take off 255s can sometimes be found pretty cheap.
It will need a tune, of course.
Cheapest bang for the buck with that exhaust.

[Adam76]

Tractor cams seem to work decent with "less than optimum" exhaust. Surprised at how well SE255 (stock CVO) or TTS100 work with Big Radius or V&H Softail duals in the normal riding range (1500-4000).

Thanks, I'll look into them.

[harpwrench]

A 4 degree advance sprocket on the stock 103 HO cams makes the all the events almost identical to the SE255, just less lift. Cheaper way to go, and easier to put back if the pipes preferred it how it was

[Adam76]

Tractor cams seem to work decent with "less than optimum" exhaust. Surprised at how well SE255 (stock CVO) or TTS100 work with Big Radius or V&H Softail duals in the normal riding range (1500-4000).

Thanks, that type of cam, plus lowered gearing with a 30T pulley should be a good set up.

[Adam76]

If you're just looking to keep it simple for now, I agree with keeping it a 103". As well if the heads aren't in the budget, stick an Andrews 48 in there. It won't be a power house, but it'll move pretty good.

Would mild headwork really improve this result with the 48s ??  Or if headwork is in the budget, should we be looking at a different cam?

The thread below has 48s with mild headwork, and doesn't look that much better that some of the charts in the dyno section with just 48s, stock heads and a good tune?

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,103352.0.html

Well mild head work opens a lot of doors, H-D 110 drop on kit just the jugs and pistons, heads cleaned up set to 83cc with 585 easy starts is pretty good bang for your buck. Whats the plan on tune?  Bob

Hey Bob. Now considering mild head work - what is your recipe for mild head work?

Thanks

[Adam76]

Truthfully he'd benefit greatly from at least a cleanup of the ports and a 1.9" intake valve put in the heads. The sheet below is a 107" with stock heads. Cams are Andrews 55's, and 10.5:1 compression. The stock heads really limit what the motor will make.

Improved flow by some head work will add HP as well as torque along the entire RPM range. If it were me, I'd wait until the head work is in the budget.

Also if someone besides me tuned the bike, maybe we would see 105hp or so.


You cannot see attachments on this board.

This graph actually looks pretty good. Do you think a larger intake valve and light valve job would give you more low end TQ ? Or more to end pull??

Thanks

[Ohio HD]

Truthfully he'd benefit greatly from at least a cleanup of the ports and a 1.9" intake valve put in the heads. The sheet below is a 107" with stock heads. Cams are Andrews 55's, and 10.5:1 compression. The stock heads really limit what the motor will make.

Improved flow by some head work will add HP as well as torque along the entire RPM range. If it were me, I'd wait until the head work is in the budget.

Also if someone besides me tuned the bike, maybe we would see 105hp or so.


You cannot see attachments on this board.

This graph actually looks pretty good. Do you think a larger intake valve and light valve job would give you more low end TQ ? Or more to end pull??

Thanks

Adding a 1.9" intake and just some mild port work to both intake and exhaust will help across the entire RPM range. Staying with a stock TB limits to the extent that "top shelf" ported heads can deliver anyway.
Also keep in mind the Fatcat pipe is helping the lower end.

This is a heavy bike, a touring, and it still was much stronger than a stocker. A little head work and a pro tune, probably 110 HP, 115 TQ or so.

[Adam76]

Truthfully he'd benefit greatly from at least a cleanup of the ports and a 1.9" intake valve put in the heads. The sheet below is a 107" with stock heads. Cams are Andrews 55's, and 10.5:1 compression. The stock heads really limit what the motor will make.

Improved flow by some head work will add HP as well as torque along the entire RPM range. If it were me, I'd wait until the head work is in the budget.

Also if someone besides me tuned the bike, maybe we would see 105hp or so.


You cannot see attachments on this board.

This graph actually looks pretty good. Do you think a larger intake valve and light valve job would give you more low end TQ ? Or more to end pull??

Thanks

Adding a 1.9" intake and just some mild port work to both intake and exhaust will help across the entire RPM range. Staying with a stock TB limits to the extent that "top shelf" ported heads can deliver anyway.
Also keep in mind the Fatcat pipe is helping the lower end.

This is a heavy bike, a touring, and it still was much stronger than a stocker. A little head work and a pro tune, probably 110 HP, 115 TQ or so.

A few decisions have been made with all your great input and he's happy with this set up.

Apologies for this taking so long, just wanted to get it right the first time 

KB Flat top 107" pistons
.005 down the hole
.030 head gasket
84cc heads
Stock heads with mild valve job and 1.9 intake valves
Compression set at 10.3
S&S 570 cams with EZ start so there's no need for installing manual compression releases.
Supertrapp 2-1 pipe or stock headers and slip on mufflers.

Looking for most TQ 2200rpm - 4500rpm

 

[Ohio HD]

Here's a 107" with stock heads and Andrews 50 cams. And this was tuned by someone that knows how. Brian at Powerglides.


https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,38227.0.html





You cannot see attachments on this board.

[Adam76]

Nice. That is an impressive TQ curve!!

And proof you can get good results even when you use stock heads.

[FXDBI]

If you're just looking to keep it simple for now, I agree with keeping it a 103". As well if the heads aren't in the budget, stick an Andrews 48 in there. It won't be a power house, but it'll move pretty good.

Would mild headwork really improve this result with the 48s ??  Or if headwork is in the budget, should we be looking at a different cam?

The thread below has 48s with mild headwork, and doesn't look that much better that some of the charts in the dyno section with just 48s, stock heads and a good tune?

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,103352.0.html

Well mild head work opens a lot of doors, H-D 110 drop on kit just the jugs and pistons, heads cleaned up set to 83cc with 585 easy starts is pretty good bang for your buck. Whats the plan on tune?  Bob

Hey Bob. Now considering mild head work - what is your recipe for mild head work?

Thanks

Not my recipe just $$$ but these were a fathers day gift from my son years back when I did a 95.
I am using a set of 2006 castings done up by Headquarters !.9/1.6 with 83cc chamber, his high velocity port with stock intake runner, set up for .600 lift also bronze guides. Currently using them with a  110 SE drop on kit and S&S 585 ES, stock TB,2016 take out 43/8 crank. No Dyno sheet but very happy with it. I like those ES cams.

[Adam76]

If you're just looking to keep it simple for now, I agree with keeping it a 103". As well if the heads aren't in the budget, stick an Andrews 48 in there. It won't be a power house, but it'll move pretty good.

Would mild headwork really improve this result with the 48s ??  Or if headwork is in the budget, should we be looking at a different cam?

The thread below has 48s with mild headwork, and doesn't look that much better that some of the charts in the dyno section with just 48s, stock heads and a good tune?

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,103352.0.html

Well mild head work opens a lot of doors, H-D 110 drop on kit just the jugs and pistons, heads cleaned up set to 83cc with 585 easy starts is pretty good bang for your buck. Whats the plan on tune?  Bob

Hey Bob. Now considering mild head work - what is your recipe for mild head work?

Thanks

I am using a set of 2006 castings done up by Headquarters !.9/1.6 with 83cc chamber, his high velocity port with stock intake runner, set up for .600 lift also bronze guides. happy with it. I like those ES cams.

Yes, that's what I'm thinking.

1.900" intake valve with light clean up and cc'd

That shouldn't break the bank. 

[FSG]

I am using a set of 2006 castings

they were/are a pretty good head to start with, I did a few mild builds using them with just a light clean and being cc'd   

[838]

The description of the way this bike is ridden negate the need for horsepower.

Why don't you pick a cam that works well for tq at 107 with stock heads... there's lots, but chose one that'll perform well with a +4 cam gear... cr575 Andrews 54/57 come to mind... not the s&s 570.

Run it at 103" with the 4* advance... if he still wants more go 107 and run it straight up. If more than... port the heads as those types of cams do well with or without headwork.

An se204 would sound bad a$$ with those fishtails... your running fishtails, screw performance!!! They look and sound good!!! Over cam it and chop along!!!

FYI... the 204 would not over cam... it'd probably do nothing for performance... just chop! Never heard one but Bob Woods days the 999-6A chops too... it does good in 107.

[Adam76]

..... Why don't you pick a cam that works well for tq at 107 with stock heads... there's lots, but chose one that'll perform well with a +4 cam gear... cr575 Andrews 54/57 come to mind... not the s&s 570....

You're 100% right.

Picking someone else's build is always difficult. I agree that you can never go wrong with the CR575 cams. 

[838]

..... Why don't you pick a cam that works well for tq at 107 with stock heads... there's lots, but chose one that'll perform well with a +4 cam gear... cr575 Andrews 54/57 come to mind... not the s&s 570....

You're 100% right.

Picking someone else's build is always difficult. I agree that you can never go wrong with the CR575 cams. 

Looking at the specs the cr575 might not play nice with those pipes if advanced 4* due to exhaust opening. No experience there. I know they've been run +4 successfully... cr570 could go 103 or 107... don't know if headwork helps it at all.

[Adam76]

..... Why don't you pick a cam that works well for tq at 107 with stock heads... there's lots, but chose one that'll perform well with a +4 cam gear... cr575 Andrews 54/57 come to mind... not the s&s 570....

You're 100% right.

Picking someone else's build is always difficult. I agree that you can never go wrong with the CR575 cams. 

Looking at the specs the cr575 might not play nice with those pipes if advanced 4* due to exhaust opening. No experience there. I know they've been run +4 successfully... cr570 could go 103 or 107... don't know if headwork helps it at all.

Talked him into changing exhaust to either stock head pipes and slip ons or  2-1 exhaust.... Just don't know which one yet.

So we can now set the compression anywhere from 10-1 to 11-1.
 

[838]

..... Why don't you pick a cam that works well for tq at 107 with stock heads... there's lots, but chose one that'll perform well with a +4 cam gear... cr575 Andrews 54/57 come to mind... not the s&s 570....

You're 100% right.

Picking someone else's build is always difficult. I agree that you can never go wrong with the CR575 cams. 

Looking at the specs the cr575 might not play nice with those pipes if advanced 4* due to exhaust opening. No experience there. I know they've been run +4 successfully... cr570 could go 103 or 107... don't know if headwork helps it at all.

Talked him into changing exhaust to either stock head pipes and slip ons or  2-1 exhaust.... Just don't know which one yet.

So we can now set the compression anywhere from 10-1 to 11-1.
 

Lol... now the dilemma of 2-1 pipes for a softail...!

[rigidthumper]

107 @ 10.8 with the T-Man 590s works a treat

[60Gunner]

The description of the way this bike is ridden negate the need for horsepower.

Why don't you pick a cam that works well for tq at 107 with stock heads... there's lots, but chose one that'll perform well with a +4 cam gear... cr575 Andrews 54/57 come to mind... not the s&s 570.

Run it at 103" with the 4* advance... if he still wants more go 107 and run it straight up. If more than... port the heads as those types of cams do well with or without headwork.

An se204 would sound bad a$$ with those fishtails... your running fishtails, screw performance!!! They look and sound good!!! Over cam it and chop along!!!

FYI... the 204 would not over cam... it'd probably do nothing for performance... just chop! Never heard one but Bob Woods days the 999-6A chops too... it does good in 107.

Boy, you're all over the place here. I don't even know where to start. Forget this silly 4° advance gear for starters. Its a just a fix for running the wrong cam at the wrong compression in the first place. And a poor one at that.
Then there's the 570s. Certainly nothing wrong the 570s run at the right compression.
4° advance gear with the 575? Seriously? Why in hell would you do that?
No performance from the SE 204? Wow!

As for exhaust, if its a 2in1 you want that's fine. Choose the right one.
This is a 107 in an 06 softail with stock head pipes and slip ons. Nice hp AND torque. Not many that put out nice square numbers over 120/120.

[Adam76]

107 @ 10.8 with the T-Man 590s works a treat

Yes, sounds like a good combo.

What ccp / dynamic compression would be the highest we could go with that set up??

Thanks

[Adam76]

The description of the way this bike is ridden negate the need for horsepower.

Why don't you pick a cam that works well for tq at 107 with stock heads... there's lots, but chose one that'll perform well with a +4 cam gear... cr575 Andrews 54/57 come to mind... not the s&s 570.

Run it at 103" with the 4* advance... if he still wants more go 107 and run it straight up. If more than... port the heads as those types of cams do well with or without headwork.

An se204 would sound bad a$$ with those fishtails... your running fishtails, screw performance!!! They look and sound good!!! Over cam it and chop along!!!

FYI... the 204 would not over cam... it'd probably do nothing for performance... just chop! Never heard one but Bob Woods days the 999-6A chops too... it does good in 107.

As for exhaust, if its a 2in1 you want that's fine. Choose the right one.
This is a 107 in an 06 softail with stock head pipes and slip ons. Nice hp AND torque.

We've looked into slip ons. RUSH slip ons are too loud.

Looking at Kerker supermeg or supertrapp supermeg 2-1... might as well get it right the first time 

[Adam76]

This is a 107 in an 06 softail with stock head pipes and slip ons. Nice hp AND torque. Not many that put out nice square numbers over 120/120.

Nice build  - No headwork?

Can't see what cams in this build? Tman 625PS ?

[Arseclown]

Yes it will have head work as you can't get hp like that without it. And throttle body upgraded. And probably clutch upgraded too. Slippery slope.

It's not relevant to your build without head work unless demonstrating stock headers work well

[Adam76]

Yes it will have head work as you can't get hp like that without it. And throttle body upgraded. And probably clutch upgraded too. Slippery slope.

It's not relevant to your build without head work unless demonstrating stock headers work well

Agreed. It's a slippery slope.

I think I've got more than enough good advice to move forward and get started.

Cheers

[60Gunner]

Yes it will have head work as you can't get hp like that without it. And throttle body upgraded. And probably clutch upgraded too. Slippery slope.

It's not relevant to your build without head work unless demonstrating stock headers work well

Yes it has head work, Yes, that's what it's demonstrating. Extremely well I might add. As good as any 2in1 I've seen. Especially one in quiet mode.

[60Gunner]

Something suggested earlier. Doing the heads instead opens up any cam you set them up for.

Leave it a 103 and do head work.

[Adam76]

107 @ 10.8 with the T-Man 590s works a treat

Thanks, we have installed a Cobra el diablo 2-1 exhaust.

With stock heads, would the Tman 590s work well at the right compression for broad TQ curve?

Thanks

[rigidthumper]

A little soggy down low with stock compression, but it works OK. This is a 103 @ 9.6 with the TR590s, stock heads.You cannot see attachments on this board.

[60Gunner]

A little soggy down low with stock compression, but it works OK. This is a 103 @ 9.6 with the TR590s, stock heads.You cannot see attachments on this board.

It will be even worse with his pipe and they're. pushing stock springs but...
Short megaphones are notorious for low end reversion. Stock compression won't help. A recipe for disappointment.

[838]

A little soggy down low with stock compression, but it works OK. This is a 103 @ 9.6 with the TR590s, stock heads.You cannot see attachments on this board.

I'm impressed by this. Shows the versatility of this cam. I don't know about the cobra mufflers (maybe causing the soft bottom)... it would be interesting to see with a set of proven slip-ons with the dx.

I like options people can grow with.

Don't think it's a smart choice for the build in question (to bolt in a 590 with a shorty 2-1)... but great info for another day!

[Ohio HD]

I don't know about the cobra mufflers (maybe causing the soft bottom)

I would say that stock compression with that set of cams is the lower torque at the early RPM's. The corrected compression is under 9:1, so you can't expect a lot.

[838]

I don't know about the cobra mufflers (maybe causing the soft bottom)

I would say that stock compression with that set of cams is the lower torque at the early RPM's. The corrected compression is under 9:1, so you can't expect a lot.

Agree 100%. I do wonder if a set of mellow or fullsac with a 1.75 or 2" baffle could improve though... Don't know about cobras w/ 2" baffles... are they any good? I only know the neighbor haters and how they perform down low..

I would use an option like this for someone looking (for budget or other reasons) to do headwork later, 107/110 later, bigger tb later...
 

[Ohio HD]

It's possible a change in pipe may help some, but I doubt worth the expense. Unless you're going after a stepping stone build down the road. Sometimes you have to step back, look at the funds available, and understand it'll be better than a stock motor. But maybe just a tad soft downstairs as Rigidthumper said and shows.

[838]

It's possible a change in pipe may help some, but I doubt worth the expense. Unless you're going after a stepping stone build down the road. Sometimes you have to step back, look at the funds available, and understand it'll be better than a stock motor. But maybe just a tad soft downstairs as Rigidthumper said and shows.

👍👍

[Hilly13]

107 @ 10.8 with the T-Man 590s works a treat

Thanks, we have installed a Cobra el diablo 2-1 exhaust.

With stock heads, would the Tman 590s work well at the right compression for broad TQ curve?

Thanks

You will notice a heck of a difference from stock for sure with the comp raised.

[harpwrench]

Too bad that pipe doesn't route the rear primary tube forward for more length like the Supermeg. If I were picking a cam for it I would be looking for an exhaust opening around 50 degrees. If you open it sooner, at some point I'd expect less responsiveness on part throttle/cruise tip-in, and the earlier you open it the more likely I'd expect a dip.

It looks to me like a 590PS2 would work great with a 4 deg retard sprocket

S&S hp103 would also work well and maybe available in ez start.

Just my opinion, looking at it like the front half of a 2-1-2 (except with one outlet), and my experiences running them

[Adam76]

A little soggy down low with stock compression, but it works OK. This is a 103 @ 9.6 with the TR590s, stock heads.You cannot see attachments on this board.

Thanks,  not sure how stock compression started to be mentioned.....  stock heads yes,  but any compression from 10 right up to 11. Haven't bought pistons yet. 

[Adam76]

Too bad that pipe doesn't route the rear primary tube forward for more length like the Supermeg. If I were picking a cam for it I would be looking for an exhaust opening around 50 degrees. If you open it sooner, at some point I'd expect less responsiveness on part throttle/cruise tip-in, and the earlier you open it the more likely I'd expect a dip.

It looks to me like a 590PS2 would work great with a 4 deg retard sprocket

S&S hp103 would also work well and maybe available in ez start.

Just my opinion, looking at it like the front half of a 2-1-2 (except with one outlet), and my experiences running them

Yeah, the pipe was definitely a compromise. It is a Softail though 

[Hilly13]

Too bad that pipe doesn't route the rear primary tube forward for more length like the Supermeg. If I were picking a cam for it I would be looking for an exhaust opening around 50 degrees. If you open it sooner, at some point I'd expect less responsiveness on part throttle/cruise tip-in, and the earlier you open it the more likely I'd expect a dip.

It looks to me like a 590PS2 would work great with a 4 deg retard sprocket

S&S hp103 would also work well and maybe available in ez start.

Just my opinion, looking at it like the front half of a 2-1-2 (except with one outlet), and my experiences running them

Yeah, the pipe was definitely a compromise. It is a Softail though 

I think you "framed" that response in a very "counterbalanced" way 😁

[60Gunner]

Too bad that pipe doesn't route the rear primary tube forward for more length like the Supermeg. If I were picking a cam for it I would be looking for an exhaust opening around 50 degrees. If you open it sooner, at some point I'd expect less responsiveness on part throttle/cruise tip-in, and the earlier you open it the more likely I'd expect a dip.

It looks to me like a 590PS2 would work great with a 4 deg retard sprocket

S&S hp103 would also work well and maybe available in ez start.

Just my opinion, looking at it like the front half of a 2-1-2 (except with one outlet), and my experiences running them

Yeah, the pipe was definitely a compromise. It is a Softail though 

Compromise for what? A look?
Guess that's one way to put it.