Roller Rocker arms hitting valve springs

[RomeoTango]

I am in the process of adding billet rocker supports and S&S roller rockers to my 124 build.

Problem I am running into is the arm of the rocker is hitting at least a couple (maybe 3) of the valve springs. The middle of the arm is touching the edge of the spring and the tip cannot touch the valve.

I have Vulcanworks billet supports and S&S 900-4065A roller rockers. In addition to being marked F and R, the rockers are also marked 1 EB and 2 EB. I don't recall this letter/number referenced in the directions (and I've thrown them out). I do not have both #1's and both #2's in the same rocker support (1 each).

Might I have the rockers installed in the wrong positions?

I note that S&S also sells the 900-4098A roller rockers. Says they come in stock and 1.725 ratio, but I only see the higher ratio. Both part numbers came up as fitting (2014 FLHX).

You cannot see attachments on this board.

You cannot see attachments on this board.

You cannot see attachments on this board.

[Ohio HD]

I would ask who ever worked on the heads what the valve protrusion is. They may have sunk the valves enough that a shorter valve should be used. Just a quick stab, as I've never had any issues with the rockers hitting the valve spring retainer.

[RomeoTango]

Thanks. I'll certainly ask.

I probably should have added that the stock support and rocker arms fit fine. I would then expect that the new parts would as well since they are essentially direct replacements.

[Ohio HD]

I wouldn't call the roller rockers a direct replacement. They're a performance part that isn't exactly the same dimensions as the OEM. Stands to reason they should fit.

Have you tried the OEM rockers with the Vulcan supports? As well try the roller rockers with the OEM support. See what parts are the problem.

[RomeoTango]

I was considering swapping around with the stock parts as you suggest.

The more I look at this, it strikes me that...the rocker arms don't look correct. On the S&S website, the arms of the rockers make an almost 90 degree down turn to the valve. The first picture in my post shows that arm taking a more gradual turn to the valve. Maybe its just me.

S&S 900-4065A

[Ohio HD]

Here's an S&S 1.625 rocker from a 117" I'm in the process of tearing down for rebuild.


You cannot see attachments on this board.

You cannot see attachments on this board.

You cannot see attachments on this board.

[RomeoTango]

Hmmm. Arm angle looks similar. Mine are not etched with the part number though.

[JSD]

I have vulcan plate & S&S RR no issues . Not sure on S&S part no.

[Ohio HD]

Hmmm. Arm angle looks similar. Mine are not etched with the part number though.

These are maybe five years old I'm told. That's when the guy had the motor built. They may have changed the way they mark them.

I've been using the R&R Cycles roller rockers in my own stuff. Simply because they are slightly less $$ and I like to spread money around to other shops a little.

[Ohio HD]

I'll ask one dumb question. You do have a gasket under the rocker support?

[RomeoTango]

Gasket = yes. I would've asked me too. 

[No Cents]

Gasket = yes. I would've asked me too. 

what gasket are you using under your rocker arm supports?
I've never used a gasket under the rocker arm supports before...nor ever seen one used.    An o-ring...yes...but never a gasket.

[RomeoTango]

Believe we mean the rocker housing...

[RomeoTango]

This morning I swapped arms around between stock supports-Vulcan, and stock arms-rollers.

The stock arms seem to fit fine in the Vulcan support. See pic below.

The shaft on the stock support was very difficult to remove, and was not sliding back in easily either. No pic, but if the roller fits the stock support it's very close to the spring.

Without part number markings I'll call S&S tomorrow to confirm the parts and fit.

I'll also call Vulcan to see if this has been brought up to them. Maybe they are familiar.

You cannot see attachments on this board.You cannot see attachments on this board.

[RomeoTango]

Pics of the S&S roller rocker.
You cannot see attachments on this board.You cannot see attachments on this board.You cannot see attachments on this board.

[SP33DY]

Where is the roller sweep pattern on your valve tip?

You may need to use different rocker arm supports or different rocker arms to get the sweep right. Axtell used to have a tech article on their site that explains setting up your rocker arms.

Wood sells a rocker arm support that moves the arm -0.030".

Delkron used to have supports that moved the arm +0.030" and +0.060". I used to stock the Delkrons but they're all long gone now. If you find a set of these you have to also pay attention to the pushrod clearance at the top of the pushrod tube.

Maybe someone on the forum knows of someone else that is making them, or someone who has some if that's what you need.

Or you may need a set of Baisley roller rocker arms.  Baisley has a tool (Baisley # PS-1001 or from Zippers # 726-001) that you can use to collect the measurements he needs to have him make a set of "corrected geometry" roller rocker arms.

[wfolarry]

Easiest way would be to put different springs on there.

[Ohio HD]

Where is the roller sweep pattern on your valve tip?

You may need to use different rocker arm supports or different rocker arms to get the sweep right. Axtell used to have a tech article on their site that explains setting up your rocker arms.

Wood sells a rocker arm support that moves the arm -0.030".

Delkron used to have supports that moved the arm +0.030" and +0.060". I used to stock the Delkrons but they're all long gone now. If you find a set of these you have to also pay attention to the pushrod clearance at the top of the pushrod tube.

Maybe someone on the forum knows of someone else that is making them, or someone who has some if that's what you need.

Or you may need a set of Baisley roller rocker arms.  Baisley has a tool (Baisley # PS-1001 or from Zippers # 726-001) that you can use to collect the measurements he needs to have him make a set of "corrected geometry" roller rocker arms.

Mr. Wood has 0.30" rocker supports.

https://woodcarbs.com/performance-add-ons/rocker-arm-support/

[jsachs1]

FWIW. Typical STOCK valve protrusion: S&S HEADS : 2.050" intake, and exhaust.
      Typical STOCK valve protrusion: FACTORY HEADS, 5/16" valve stems. 1.995" - 2.005" in and ex.
      Typical STOCK valve protrusion: FACTORY HEADS, 7 mm valve stems: 2.040" in. and ex.
John

[JSD]

My  motor is 01 bee hive comp cam springs. & the roller to valve tip contact is centre . When i fitted Vulcan support i pulled it toward cam and tightened. I will try and find S&S part no. 1 no. Saved on photo 900-4065FA seems the same no.

[kd]

If you are not using Rocker lockers (my shafts are anchored in the rocker stand bosses with grub screws from underneath) you should be able to position the rocker stands to maximize pushrod clearance and rocker contact on the valve tip.  With the fasteners just snug, they can, with patience, be finessed into the best location and torqued down there.  you can manually slow roll the engine and inspect all clearances and contact points easily.   

[SP33DY]

Easiest way would be to put different springs on there.

That's the truth! You can probably get the spring force you need from a good set of beehives. Sometimes I forget to use the flyswatter instead of the sledgehammer!

[RomeoTango]

I wouldn't call the roller rockers a direct replacement. They're a performance part that isn't exactly the same dimensions as the OEM. Stands to reason they should fit.

Thanks for all the replies - I'll need to study most of them. I keep coming back around to the fact that the stock supports and rocker arms fit. No modifications. I thought it would just be an easy parts swap.

I put one stock arm in on the front intake with the billet support. Where the roller would hit the retainer, the stock arm did not. Makes me think its the roller arm. Does the clearance on the stock arm pic below look correct? Tried S&S several times today, and left a message, but could not speak with a tech. Will try again tomorrow.

Should I ditch the roller idea and stick to the stockers (keeping the billet supports)? So much opinion on the topic.
You cannot see attachments on this board.
You cannot see attachments on this board.

[Ohio HD]

I have some R&R Cycles 1.625 and 1.725 rockers here. This photo is of a 1.625 ratio. I'll try to find time tomorrow to place an R&R and an S&S on the same rocker shaft to align them. Then place both rollers on a common surface and see if there's any obvious difference in the arc of the roller arm.

You cannot see attachments on this board.

[Coff 06]

So is putting a relief in the rocker out of the question ?
Just a thought.Might be a stupid idea,then maybe not. 
        Coff  06     

[SP33DY]

So is putting a relief in the rocker out of the question ?
Just a thought.Might be a stupid idea,then maybe not. 
        Coff  06     

No, it's not out of the question. It's been done often, and usually successfully. A clean smooth radius is necessary. It's a balance of not removing too much material and having an adequate radius.

[RomeoTango]

Spoke to my builder who said the springs were an SE heavy part. I found an older catalog online that listed them as SE Race, double wound, supporting .660 lift.

Managed to speak to Vulcan and S&S the last couple days.

Vulcan had never heard of this fitment issue. Could not really speculate on the issue, but did say that their plate at one point was contracted to HD as an SE part (anodized gold and all). At some later point they ended the contract. So the Vulcan piece is fine.

Talking to S&S today. Speculation is that the SE springs and collars are wide/big. Interferes with the action of the arm. Some additional conversation of protrusion, etc (that has been mentioned here) - but the bottom line is the size of the springs. Beehives would likely solve, or just use the stock arms. Seemed to have no issue or concern with using the stock arms with the .630 lift. Good conversation.

So I believe I will go the route of using the stock arms with the Vulcan plate. I'll need to set them up to be sure all fits well.

[FLDavetrain]

Seemed to have no issue or concern with using the stock arms with the .630 lift. Good conversation.

So I believe I will go the route of using the stock arms with the Vulcan plate. I'll need to set them up to be sure all fits well.

I've done same set up on a bike with.630 lift, no issue at all

[Deye76]

Those SE springs are overkill, the source of noise for many, myself included. As WFO Larry pointed out, changing the springs makes perfect sense.

[RomeoTango]

Any recommendations for springs in the event I go that direction?

I mocked up the stock rockers and billet plates this evening against the fitment of stock plates - all seems fine.

A new noticed issue is some pitting on two rocker arm contact surfaces, and on two arms the rocker bushings look very...dirty/gray. I cleaned with brake clean to no affect. Seems my luck continues to wane.

If replacing rockers, are the S&S regular, non-roller forged the same as stock (exact same arm shapes)? I've called my local HD dealer only to be told the stock arms are on back order until the end of September. Next dealers are 1 1/2 - 2 1/2 hours away. I'll call and make the drive if they have, but I might guess this is not an item they carry on the shelves. I've also seen Drag Specialties and a couple others offer replacement arms, but know nothing about these (manufacturer, quality).

[Deye76]

"Any recommendations for springs in the event I go that direction?"

WFO Larry
John Sachs.

[JSD]

I would change out to beehives mine are CompCams but plenty to chose from. Also i like Rollers on lift more than .585"

[Hilly13]

I live by the motto of modify adapt and overcome, bearing blue and a smallish, sharp single cut half round file will get you your clearance, nice smooth curves, as long as you are not removing bulk material they will be fine(cover the roller each filing session so you don't inadvertently clip it with the file and no filings get in there), think of it as fine tuning.....beehives would work but you can't just chuck them in there, measurements need to be made because you don't know what you have there.

[jsachs1]

"Any recommendations for springs in the event I go that direction?"

WFO Larry
John Sachs.

I use AV&V 90 % of the time. 1.350" OD retainer steel.
                                                 1.365" OD retainer titanium.
Retainers sit pretty high on the AV&V spring, (less valve tip protrusion).
I don't have any Kibblewhites in the shop currently. I know that with the Kibblewhite springs, there is more valve tip protrusion.
Also, if you have to grind the lower rocker box for valve spring retainer clearance, can be another tell tale sign that you may have a retainer, or installed height problem/issue.
John

[Ohio HD]

I tried to get a good clean photo of the two rocker arms, R&R and S&S. This is the best I can do without a better way to fixture the two together. It appears that the R&R (front arm) has a very slight amount of clearance that the S&S doesn't have. You can see a slight image under the arms curve, that's the S&S rocker arm.

I guess the best way to check these is to mount them on a head, the same head and same valve spring. Then try to measure any clearance difference with a feeler gauge or wire.


You cannot see attachments on this board.

[RomeoTango]

Thanks Ohio. Seems they are close enough that I would expect R&R to interfere the same.

At this point I'll stay with stock arms. I'd rather not have the bike down any further or go through the expense of new springs (labor and time mostly), and running stock arms seems suitable enough (opinions seem to be split 50/50).

Although, a couple of the bearings on my OEM don't look healthy to me. Not sure about bearing replacement - so I've ordered a set of S&S Standard rocker arms and a set of OEM replacement from Drag Specialties (Harley on backorder). One of those sets will hopefully work out, the other will go back.

[Ohio HD]

You'll be fine with stock rocker arms with 0.630" lift. Keep in mind that the 120r comes with standard Twin Cam rocker arms and it has 0.658" lift with heavy duty springs. 

[jsachs1]

S&S has a titanium retainer, for their springs, that slopes down from the keeper groove to the OD of the spring. It's width is 1.425".
 Did you ever check valve protrusion?    If not, are your rocker tips hitting the center of the valve stem ?
John

[RomeoTango]

Team HTT - greatly appreciate all! As it goes, I'm headed out on planned vacation this week. Ordered rockers are inbound, so I'll get back on this once I return. Of course, rockers arrive the day I depart...

[RomeoTango]

Quick wrap up. Ended using S&S standard rocker arms with the billet supports. They cleared the valve springs. The stock replacements from Drag Specialties looked only ok. The S&S pieces looked much better made.