Another EVO with low oil pressure

[SixShooter14]

alright folks... My oil pressure light has been on since a I picked it up from the dealer last Friday after getting a new drive belt and had them do a fluid change while there.

I removed the wire from the sensor and the light went out, touched it to the sensor and comes back on. So I don't think it's grounding out somewhere in between. In the process of removing the wire, I noticed the top portion of the sensor was cracked. So I replaced it with a new sensor... Light is still on and at all RPMs

There is no rattle or knocking at all from the engine top or bottom.

I pulled the sensor off and started the engine and oil does flow from the sensor hole. It's not spraying out, but at an idle it's a steady stream.


As a reminder, I did lose the oil pump back in April this year and replaced with a stock replacement. Have ridden 2000+ miles since the change with no issues. Perhaps a piece of debris got dislodged during the oil change and caught in a passage?

[kd]

I hope your not riding it.  Put a gauge in the sensor hole for a brief test.  Idle and around 2,00O but brief. What happened to the previous pump? 

Maybe the dealer removed the screen for cleaning and caused a problem at that point.

[SixShooter14]

I hope your not riding it.  Put a gauge in the sensor hole for a brief test.  Idle and around 2,00 but brief. What happened to the previous pump?

Maybe the dealer removed the screen for cleaning and caused a problem at that point.

I'm not exactly sure what happened first. But the pump drive gear exploded.

I rode it off the trailer and out to the office and back. About 8 miles total to see if it would go out when warm, no luck. Oil is definitely flowing, and tappet screen is clear.

I'll throw a gauge on it and see what it says.

[JSD]

Lifters would clatter with no oil pressure . Unless solids

[98s1lightning]

In your first post, first sentence, the Dealer effed it up

These days, the parts guy at the dealer chuckles and says the Evo is older then the service technicians that work there. 

[SixShooter14]

In your first post, first sentence, the Dealer effed it up

These days, the parts guy at the dealer chuckles and says the Evo is older then the service technicians that work there.

Perhaps... My bet is the fluid change dislodged some debris that is now partially blocking an oil passage... Just my feelings.


When I did the oil pump repair, I was on a very tight time constraint. So I didn't drop the oil pan or open the crankcase. I flushed it and inspected with a light and borescope, but it wouldn't surprise me a bit if a piece of metal, gasket, or just junk from the hoses got into the oil system and is now in one of those little oil passages.

[Hossamania]

A pressure gauge would help tell the story.

[98s1lightning]

Idk how to post pics but VULCAN makes a nice stainless gauge adapter for where the lifter screen is accessed

[kd]

Six, put a gauge on it.  Your an engineer.  You know all about facts and how important they are.  Flow doesn't need pressure when you have roller bearings dumping the oil.

My point with the screen is checking the flow through there too. With that plug installed again, wrap the tip of an air nozzle and blow backwards through the oil pressure gauge port.  (The screen chamber feeds the oil pressure gauge gallery directly.)  Reinstall the gauge and check for a change in pressure.  If anything is holding a valve open there will be a huge pressure drop. 

The other thing not mentioned yet is the "new" oil filter.  If the bypass is open it can cause similar issues.  It is also one of the last things changed before the oil pressure drop.  If the oil pressure drop was immediately after the service it's a top candidate.  BTW, were any oil lines removed for any reason?

I want to repeat, if you can't confirm oil flowing in a decent amount through the screen port or the gauge port on the crankcase, don't get too carried away with running it.

[Fugawee]

You mention that the Dealer did a Fluid Change on Your EVO.
Do You happen to know if they put a Twin Cam Oil Filter on there instead of an EVO Filter?
I have heard numerous times over the years that the Twin Cam Filter is more restrictive of Oil flow than an EVO Filter.
I don't have any hands-on personal experience with that, I have always used the Evo Filter on an EVO, and a T/C Filter on a T/C.
So, how true that statement may be, I really don't know.
Someone may have a better explanation about the Filter usage than Me.

[SixShooter14]

Six, put a gauge on it.  Your an engineer.  You know all about facts and how important they are.  Flow doesn't need pressure when you have roller bearings dumping the oil.

My point with the screen is checking the flow through there too. With that plug installed again, wrap the tip of an air nozzle and blow backwards through the oil pressure gauge port.  (The screen chamber feeds the oil pressure gauge gallery directly.)  Reinstall the gauge and check for a change in pressure.  If anything is holding a valve open there will be a huge pressure drop. 

The other thing not mentioned yet is the "new" oil filter.  If the bypass is open it can cause similar issues.  It is also one of the last things changed before the oil pressure drop.  If the oil pressure drop was immediately after the service it's a top candidate.  BTW, were any oil lines removed for any reason?

I want to repeat, if you can't confirm oil flowing in a decent amount through the screen port or the gauge port on the crankcase, don't get too carried away with running it.

yeah, I'm working on getting a gauge.

I pulled the tappet screen, it was clean, and there was oil there, but I didn't run to see how much was coming through. I've read about dealers using TC filters, the service ticket calls out the correct -80A filter, but who knows.

[Ohio HD]

I've read about dealers using TC filters, the service ticket calls out the correct -80A filter, but who knows.

That's an old wives tail. They don't interchange.

[SixShooter14]

I've read about dealers using TC filters, the service ticket calls out the correct -80A filter, but who knows.

That's an old wives tail. They don't interchange.

filter.... oil filter... 

[Ohio HD]

I've read about dealers using TC filters, the service ticket calls out the correct -80A filter, but who knows.

That's an old wives tail. They don't interchange.

filter.... oil filter... 

    man, I need to clean these reading glasses....   

[SixShooter14]

    man, I need to clean these reading glasses....   

hey, I got a laugh out of it... I had to reread my post twice to make sure I spelled it right.

[kd]

Six, put a gauge on it.  Your an engineer.  You know all about facts and how important they are.  Flow doesn't need pressure when you have roller bearings dumping the oil.

My point with the screen is checking the flow through there too. With that plug installed again, wrap the tip of an air nozzle and blow backwards through the oil pressure gauge port.  (The screen chamber feeds the oil pressure gauge gallery directly.)  Reinstall the gauge and check for a change in pressure.  If anything is holding a valve open there will be a huge pressure drop. 

The other thing not mentioned yet is the "new" oil filter.  If the bypass is open it can cause similar issues.  It is also one of the last things changed before the oil pressure drop.  If the oil pressure drop was immediately after the service it's a top candidate.  BTW, were any oil lines removed for any reason?

I want to repeat, if you can't confirm oil flowing in a decent amount through the screen port or the gauge port on the crankcase, don't get too carried away with running it.

yeah, I'm working on getting a gauge.

I pulled the tappet screen, it was clean, and there was oil there, but I didn't run to see how much was coming through. I've read about dealers using TC filters, the service ticket calls out the correct -80A filter, but who knows.

Yes, I realize you checked the screen.  My point is blowing back may confirm there is air passing through the system and not plugged.  Restarting it and getting better oil flow will indicate a change. 

As far as the filter goes, if oil isn't getting to the pump (or the lack of sump oil due to low flow causes the sump return system to pick up, carry and introduce air) the pressure can be defeated.  The aerated oil can cause cavitation in the pump and consequently no pressure. 

[SixShooter14]

Yes, I realize you checked the screen.  My point is blowing back may confirm there is air passing through the system and not plugged.  Restarting it and getting better oil flow will indicate a change. 

As far as the filter goes, if oil isn't getting to the pump (or the lack of sump oil due to low flow causes the sump return system to pick up, carry and introduce air) the pressure can be defeated.  The aerated oil can cause cavitation in the pump and consequently no pressure. 

no luck there. blew air in the pressure sensor hole and it sprayed out the tappet screen hole, a small bit of oil. Started and didn't see any oil in the screen hole and still no pressure.

[kd]

Yes, I realize you checked the screen.  My point is blowing back may confirm there is air passing through the system and not plugged.  Restarting it and getting better oil flow will indicate a change. 

As far as the filter goes, if oil isn't getting to the pump (or the lack of sump oil due to low flow causes the sump return system to pick up, carry and introduce air) the pressure can be defeated.  The aerated oil can cause cavitation in the pump and consequently no pressure. 

no luck there. blew air in the pressure sensor hole and it sprayed out the tappet screen hole, a small bit of oil. Started and didn't see any oil in the screen hole and still no pressure.

The oil passes through the screen chamber on the way to the gallery to the pressure switch.  All you did was blow out that link.  With the pressure switch in, blow into the screen chamber with a rag sealing the air nozzle.  That will push back on that part of the gallery and clear it.  Not important but it will also feed past the pressure switch to the lifters and pushrods. 

Do you have another filter to try?

[SixShooter14]

Yes, I realize you checked the screen.  My point is blowing back may confirm there is air passing through the system and not plugged.  Restarting it and getting better oil flow will indicate a change. 

As far as the filter goes, if oil isn't getting to the pump (or the lack of sump oil due to low flow causes the sump return system to pick up, carry and introduce air) the pressure can be defeated.  The aerated oil can cause cavitation in the pump and consequently no pressure. 

no luck there. blew air in the pressure sensor hole and it sprayed out the tappet screen hole, a small bit of oil. Started and didn't see any oil in the screen hole and still no pressure.

The oil passes through the screen chamber on the way to the gallery to the pressure switch.  All you did was blow out that link.  With the pressure switch in, blow into the screen chamber with a rag sealing the air nozzle.  That will push back on that part of the gallery and clear it.  Not important but it will also feed past the pressure switch to the lifters and pushrods. 

Do you have another filter to try?

I sure do. I have several known good filters.

[kd]

Yes, I realize you checked the screen.  My point is blowing back may confirm there is air passing through the system and not plugged.  Restarting it and getting better oil flow will indicate a change. 

As far as the filter goes, if oil isn't getting to the pump (or the lack of sump oil due to low flow causes the sump return system to pick up, carry and introduce air) the pressure can be defeated.  The aerated oil can cause cavitation in the pump and consequently no pressure. 

no luck there. blew air in the pressure sensor hole and it sprayed out the tappet screen hole, a small bit of oil. Started and didn't see any oil in the screen hole and still no pressure.

The oil passes through the screen chamber on the way to the gallery to the pressure switch.  All you did was blow out that link.  With the pressure switch in, blow into the screen chamber with a rag sealing the air nozzle.  That will push back on that part of the gallery and clear it.  Not important but it will also feed past the pressure switch to the lifters and pushrods. 

Do you have another filter to try?

I sure do. I have several known good filters.

If you know it to be correct for your Evo you can always try one.  If it's not visually identical it may be wrong. (The twin cam filter should work but with reduced flow due to filter element difference.). If it works then you found the problem.  If not wrap the filter and save it for you next service. 

[SixShooter14]

If you know it to be correct for your Evo you can always try one.  If it's not visually identical it may be wrong. (The twin cam filter should work but with reduced flow due to filter element difference.). If it works then you found the problem.  If not wrap the filter and save it for you next service. 

thanks, I'll swap them tomorrow and see what happens. Also gonna double check hoses and fittings. Never know if something is pinching a line or something.

I did blow air into the screen hole with the pressure sensor in. No luck, ran it for a few seconds but no oil in the screen hole, so I shut her down.

[Dan89flstc]

The other thing not mentioned yet is the "new" oil filter.  If the bypass is open it can cause similar issues. 

The oil filter is on the scavenge side of the oil circuit, it will have no effect on oil pressure.

[nibroc]

The other thing not mentioned yet is the "new" oil filter.  If the bypass is open it can cause similar issues. 

The oil filter is on the scavenge side of the oil circuit, it will have no effect on oil pressure.

correct^^^^^^^^^^^^

[SP33DY]

I had a 1998 Evo Ultra come in about two years ago with "low oil pressure". It checked good with a mechanical gauge. It took two or three new sending units to get one that turned off the light. If I recall correctly, the one that worked came from Cycle Pro.

[SixShooter14]

If you know it to be correct for your Evo you can always try one.  If it's not visually identical it may be wrong. (The twin cam filter should work but with reduced flow due to filter element difference.). If it works then you found the problem.  If not wrap the filter and save it for you next service. 

tried swapping the filter but no luck. still not getting oil through the tappet screen hole. gauge is installed in the sensor hole and is of course showing 0.

I thought maybe the pump had lost prime or gotten air in it during the fluid change. So I pulled the check ball out the top of the pump and poured in a good bit of oil and turned it over with the plugs removed. No luck, the oil in the check valve hole isn't even moving.

At this point, I'm thinking the pump gears aren't turning, maybe a sheared key?

[SixShooter14]

Welp, found the issue.... The retaining ring that goes against the crank bearing was sitting in the bottom of the cam chest and the oil pump drive gear and worm gear are a bit chewed up but not terribly bad. cam, pinion, and breather gears all look fine. Lifters and rollers are also good.

It seems the pump drive gear key sheared and unclear about the keys in the pump itself. I pulled the outer pump cover off and removed the pressure side idler, it looks fine. But the pressure side drive gear will not budge. I got the circlip off it but cannot get it to slide off the shaft.

Will continue tearing it down tomorrow.

[JSD]

Time to pull the Cam cover

[kd]

Welp, found the issue.... The retaining ring that goes against the crank bearing was sitting in the bottom of the cam chest and the oil pump drive gear and worm gear are a bit chewed up but not terribly bad. cam, pinion, and breather gears all look fine. Lifters and rollers are also good.

It seems the pump drive gear key sheared and unclear about the keys in the pump itself. I pulled the outer pump cover off and removed the pressure side idler, it looks fine. But the pressure side drive gear will not budge. I got the circlip off it but cannot get it to slide off the shaft.

Will continue tearing it down tomorrow.

Six, all the way through this thread I was having a flashback but didn't want to believe it was what happened to you. I figured it had to be related to the dealer service. I was on a road trip to Vancouver Island and went to the car wash in Duncan.  About 2 blocks later no oil pressure.  I did all the oil pressure tests I mentioned and no joy.  Off with the cam cover.  The pinion bearing end that holds the rollers in had broke away and headed straight for the oil pump.  The same results as you.

Here's the tough part.  While that pump was chewing on the shrapnel, it was feeding the fine stuff to the rest of the engine.  I was lucky enough (if you want to call it that) to be in Duncan which is about 20 minutes from Cobble Hill and  a good friend Marve Brimicome.  He was a world record holding top fuel sand drag racer (Marves Speed Shop - Experi-mental Racing) He passed away a few years ago but had a full machine shop. We knocked the sidecar off and pulled the engine for a full rebuild.

Be careful about short cuts.  If the brand new oil is sparkling, there's bits in the cam case and there's slivers on the magnet. you get the rest. It's probably already been sent to the crank and rods because you were riding it, so it'll be split the wheels.  Time for a winter stroker project to make some lemonade.  I feel your pain bud.  The difference is, I was a four day ride from home and had to do it then and there.

[nibroc]

 



terrible or bad luck



 

[JW113]

Ultima 113.

 

-JW

[98s1lightning]

Why do you think it split the clip? The crank main Pinion bearing fail first?

Doesn't this clip type arrangement go back to 1970 when the cone first came out? 
I'm thinking maybe the earlier type loose roller/cage bearing arrangement is a better choice than the Evo type where its the captured all in one bearing. 

Maybe worth going to the other type if interchangeable which I think you can. 

The Evo bearing slip on race is supposedly OD ground in place after installation, but I never seen or heard of anyone actually doing it.

[SixShooter14]

Why do you think it split the clip? The crank main Pinion bearing fail first?

Doesn't this clip type arrangement go back to 1970 when the cone first came out?
I'm thinking maybe the earlier type loose roller/cage bearing arrangement is a better choice than the Evo type where its the captured all in one bearing.

Maybe worth going to the other type if interchangeable which I think you can.

The Evo bearing slip on race is supposedly OD ground in place after installation, but I never seen or heard of anyone actually doing it.

I've wondered the same thing. Maybe the dealer used an impact when removing or installing the comp nut and that hammered the bearing race against the clip? IDK

another possibility.... When I replaced that ring back in April I did have a little trouble getting the ring on. I felt like I overstretched/twisted it at the time. I turned it around the shaft and made sure it was in the ring, but wasn't 100% confident. So perhaps I did have it a bit out parallel and it just finally let go.

[kd]

Why do you think it split the clip? The crank main Pinion bearing fail first?

Doesn't this clip type arrangement go back to 1970 when the cone first came out?
I'm thinking maybe the earlier type loose roller/cage bearing arrangement is a better choice than the Evo type where its the captured all in one bearing.

Maybe worth going to the other type if interchangeable which I think you can.

The Evo bearing slip on race is supposedly OD ground in place after installation, but I never seen or heard of anyone actually doing it.

I've wondered the same thing. Maybe the dealer used an impact when removing or installing the comp nut and that hammered the bearing race against the clip? IDK

another possibility.... When I replaced that ring back in April I did have a little trouble getting the ring on. I felt like I overstretched/twisted it at the time. I turned it around the shaft and made sure it was in the ring, but wasn't 100% confident. So perhaps I did have it a bit out parallel and it just finally let go.

.

Six, do you remember if the sharp side of the clip was facing out.  If there's enough remaining you may be able to tell by witness marks.  I realize it's after the face but generally the sharp side goes out so it grips in the groove.

[SixShooter14]

Six, do you rennet if the sharp side of the clip was facing out.  If there's enough remaining you may be able to tell by witness marks.  I realize it's after the face but generally the sharp side goes out so it grips in the groove.

I sure don't. I'll give it a look and may can tell.

[SixShooter14]

Six, do you remember if the sharp side of the clip was facing out.  If there's enough remaining you may be able to tell by witness marks.  I realize it's after the face but generally the sharp side goes out so it grips in the groove.

There's a witness mark matching the bearing race on the clip. It appears that that side is the sharper/square side, if I'm reading it right. The other has some chewed up marks and is mangled a bit, but appears to be slightly beveled.

So....I think... the inner pinion bearing race walked out, ran against the clip for unknown amount of time. The clip eventually let go and was chewed up.

Second event, the pump drive gear key is sheared and the scavenge gears are seized up, assuming they pulled in some chunk of ring and locked up/chewed up the pump shaft and housing.

[SixShooter14]

Now the question is... what to do next?

Seems like the answer is pull the engine?

then R&R it or just pay the money and go S&S/Ultima crate? I'm thinking a V111 long block might be in the future?     

[kd]

Six, do you remember if the sharp side of the clip was facing out.  If there's enough remaining you may be able to tell by witness marks.  I realize it's after the face but generally the sharp side goes out so it grips in the groove.

There's a witness mark matching the bearing race on the clip. It appears that that side is the sharper/square side, if I'm reading it right. The other has some chewed up marks and is mangled a bit, but appears to be slightly beveled.

So....I think... the inner pinion bearing race walked out, ran against the clip for unknown amount of time. The clip eventually let go and was chewed up.

Second event, the pump drive gear key is sheared and the scavenge gears are seized up, assuming they pulled in some chunk of ring and locked up/chewed up the pump shaft and housing.

As said, the sharp edge should have been out.  That's what stops it from escaping.  I know, pretty flimsy but normal in most installations of spring retainer rings (including wrist pins etc).  One thing that will cause relentless pushing on the pinion bearing is flywheel runout.  The "wobble" works the bearing case outwards in the bore.  There's not much holding it back like the other side.  While you have it opened up, measure the pinion side runout and you'll get an idea if that was contributing to the failure along with the clip position.  If the runout is excessive you'll know that you need a plan.   

[SixShooter14]

As said, the sharp edge should have been out.  That's what stops it from escaping.  I know, pretty flimsy but normal in most installations of spring retainer rings (including wrist pins etc).  One thing that will cause relentless pushing on the pinion bearing is flywheel runout.  The "wobble" works the bearing case outwards in the bore.  There's not much holding it back like the other side.  While you have it opened up, measure the pinion side runout and you'll get an idea if that was contributing to the failure along with the clip position. If the runout is excessive you'll know that you need a plan.   

I don't have a pinion runout tool right now, but will definitely get one for the future. This is the 2nd time that inner race has walked out. So I'm betting that's the issue. It's a stock bottom end with 61k miles on it. about 8k of that with the increased compression and cam. Seems the added power is just looking for the weakest link and found it.

The engine has to be pulled regardless to replace the buggered oil pump shaft and bushing. The shaft is pretty mangled and has some resistance in turning. If I'm pulling it, I might as well replace with something bigger. I think I will do the repairs on this 80" and keep an eye out for a deal on an EVO project bike to stick it in.

It's still early winter here, so I might was well get into it.
$6k on a V111 seems like the route I'm going. Along with clutch and probably a DD6, but still some research to do on picking the trans.

[Ohio HD]

I would suggest looking for input from guys who have used or has experience with either S&S or Ultima crate motors for Evo. Such as jsachs1, wfolarry, turboprop, JW113, Deye76. I'm sure there are others, but these guys come to mind.

Sometimes the crate motors can have built in issues.

[fbn ent]

As said, the sharp edge should have been out.  That's what stops it from escaping.  I know, pretty flimsy but normal in most installations of spring retainer rings (including wrist pins etc).  One thing that will cause relentless pushing on the pinion bearing is flywheel runout.  The "wobble" works the bearing case outwards in the bore.  There's not much holding it back like the other side.  While you have it opened up, measure the pinion side runout and you'll get an idea if that was contributing to the failure along with the clip position. If the runout is excessive you'll know that you need a plan.   

I don't have a pinion runout tool right now, but will definitely get one for the future. This is the 2nd time that inner race has walked out. So I'm betting that's the issue. It's a stock bottom end with 61k miles on it. about 8k of that with the increased compression and cam. Seems the added power is just looking for the weakest link and found it.

The engine has to be pulled regardless to replace the buggered oil pump shaft and bushing. The shaft is pretty mangled and has some resistance in turning. If I'm pulling it, I might as well replace with something bigger. I think I will do the repairs on this 80" and keep an eye out for a deal on an EVO project bike to stick it in.

It's still early winter here, so I might was well get into it.
$6k on a V111 seems like the route I'm going. Along with clutch and probably a DD6, but still some research to do on picking the trans.

[Ohio HD]

I'd also look at having your motor rebuilt professionally. An 80 inch motor with some headwork, a decent cam, carburetor to match, can make a fine running bike for less than a crate motor.

A guy can also use S&S 3-5/8 cylinders with the stock 4-1/4 stroke making an 88 incher. Smoother than a longer stroke, and capable of making lots of torque. I'd be tempted to go that route.

[jsachs1]

Ultima is having a sale on their engines. FWIW, they are a strong, usually trouble free engine.
John

[SixShooter14]

Ultima is having a sale on their engines. FWIW, they are a strong, usually trouble free engine.
John

I appreciate it. I certainly haven't ruled out the 113 or bigger Ultimas.

[98s1lightning]

I'd ditch the OEM Evo style pinion shaft that uses thinner race and put a set of S&S flywheels in it that take a 1 pc shaft.
But then I think you would have to swap cam covers to a early evo/shovel style. The pinion race location offset is different.


https://www.sscycle.com › docs › default-source › instruction-sheets › 51-1021_pinionshaftsbt_20060406.pdf?sfvrsn=4

[SixShooter14]

I'd also look at having your motor rebuilt professionally. An 80 inch motor with some headwork, a decent cam, carburetor to match, can make a fine running bike for less than a crate motor.

A guy can also use S&S 3-5/8 cylinders with the stock 4-1/4 stroke making an 88 incher. Smoother than a longer stroke, and capable of making lots of torque. I'd be tempted to go that route.

Yeah, that's the likely plan for the current 80". Send it out or at least the bottom end and crank out for a rebuild. It's a strong engine but $4k for the Ultima is mighty tempting.

But for now...
I'll check that pinion runout that KD mentioned above. Then I'll have a better idea as to what kind of shape this engine is in.

[Hossamania]

Or just fix what needs fixin' as cheap as possible and run it 'til it blows.
I know, blasphemy.

[Clayster]

Ultima is having a sale on their engines. FWIW, they are a strong, usually trouble free engine.
John

If it was me I'd get in contact with John Sachs (^) of Sachs Race Bikes and have him do an Ultima motor to meet your needs and desires.  He's an industry insider and has been intimately involved in many things Harley and high performance including Ultima engines.  You won't be sorry...

[SixShooter14]

Six, do you remember if the sharp side of the clip was facing out.  If there's enough remaining you may be able to tell by witness marks.  I realize it's after the face but generally the sharp side goes out so it grips in the groove.

As said, the sharp edge should have been out.  That's what stops it from escaping.  I know, pretty flimsy but normal in most installations of spring retainer rings (including wrist pins etc).  One thing that will cause relentless pushing on the pinion bearing is flywheel runout.  The "wobble" works the bearing case outwards in the bore.  There's not much holding it back like the other side.  While you have it opened up, measure the pinion side runout and you'll get an idea if that was contributing to the failure along with the clip position.  If the runout is excessive you'll know that you need a plan.   

I have the new S&S retainer ring, the same as the previous one and it doesn't look beveled at all, both sides are sharp... 

Regardless, I finally got the runout measured... right at 0.004" when turning the engine and a little less than 0.001" lifting on the end of the shaft.

[kd]

Six, do you remember if the sharp side of the clip was facing out.  If there's enough remaining you may be able to tell by witness marks.  I realize it's after the face but generally the sharp side goes out so it grips in the groove.

As said, the sharp edge should have been out.  That's what stops it from escaping.  I know, pretty flimsy but normal in most installations of spring retainer rings (including wrist pins etc).  One thing that will cause relentless pushing on the pinion bearing is flywheel runout.  The "wobble" works the bearing case outwards in the bore.  There's not much holding it back like the others side.  While you have it opened up, measure the pinion side runout and you'll get an idea if that was contributing to the failure along with the clip position.  If the runout is excessive you'll know that you need a plan.   

I have the new S&S retainer ring, the same as the previous one and it doesn't look beveled at all, both sides are sharp... 

Regardless, I finally got the runout measured... right at 0.004" when turning the engine and a little less than 0.001" lifting on the end of the shaft.

.

It appears to me your crank is good on runout.  If you don't break it down at least check the rod play per the manual.  If the play there is good do a super flush over and over while rotating it to make sure the are no fines left in the rod bearings and gallery.  Don't go cheap on the flushing agent.  Use plenty clean.  Save the runoff and after it settles you can run it through a filter paper to see what you have.

Here's a little trick for checking what you're flushing out.  Catch the solvent you are using to clean the bearings and galleries in a surgical clean container and save it to another equally clean one. (Use a gentle air nozzle etc to clean the galleries.  Pour the solvent you drain off into the other container.  Add a cup or so of water to the second can and let it settle for 24 hrs.  Any metal bits will settle into the water and be trapped.  Carefully drain off the solvent into the original container to be used for cleaning parts later.  Carefully trickle the water and residue onto a fine preferably white paper towel.  A magnifying glass can be used to examine your catch. 

The oil pan is another issue.

 When you look at the retainer you will see it is stamped out.  The side the stamp mill pushes the washer slug out from will have a slightly sharper perimeter edge.  That edge should go out as it will have a better bite and help it stay in place.  Hopefully the groove is clean and sharp without burrs.

[JSD]

Isn't Ultima made in China. 
Also the retaining clips are pressed so the inside diameter of clip has a slight bevel as KD said. You can feel it on your finger nail. Sharp edge faces away from flywheel to seat against the groove in pinion shaft . As you say you popped it twice check the pinion shaft groove 

[SixShooter14]

Isn't Ultima made in China.
Also the retaining clips are pressed so the inside diameter of clip has a slight bevel as KD said. You can feel it on your finger nail. Sharp edge faces away from flywheel to seat against the groove in pinion shaft . As you say you popped it twice check the pinion shaft groove

yep, I can't see the bevel but I can feel it catching the callouses on my fingers. I marked the clip to put the sharp edge out.

[SixShooter14]

Figured I'd drop in with an update.
Weather finally warmed up enough so my garage is above freezing with the heaters on.
I'm in the process of removing the engine and got the primary open and found one of the alternator rotor magnets stuck to the stator. So that's nice.

Getting a new rotor, but had a quick thought.
Has anyone successfully re-glued a magnet back in place? some sort of epoxy or something?... was just a slow winter time curiosity.

[jls 64]

Sorry nope

[FSG]

it's not something I'd do   

[SixShooter14]

Those are the answers I expected. I got my new rotor in last week.

Also, got the engine out and on the bench. Next time the temp gets above freezing, I'll work on that oil pump shaft/gear.

[thumper 823]

Supposedly,  a Gerotor oil pump will filter from the pressure side.

[kink04fxd]

Figured I'd drop in with an update.
Weather finally warmed up enough so my garage is above freezing with the heaters on.
I'm in the process of removing the engine and got the primary open and found one of the alternator rotor magnets stuck to the stator. So that's nice.

Getting a new rotor, but had a quick thought.
Has anyone successfully re-glued a magnet back in place? some sort of epoxy or something?... was just a slow winter time curiosity.

I glued one my shovel several years ago. Holding up just fine. Probably over 30,000 plus miles.

[SixShooter14]

An update for ya'll
Took a little bit of work, but I got the engine reinstalled about 2 weeks ago. Whew, next time she comes out, I'm going to have a table lift and grab a friend for some assistance.

Spent last weekend installing the primary and routing oil lines.

Spent yesterday on the intake and exhaust and today got the gas tank back on, refilled all the fluids, installed a new battery, and primed the new oil pump... Finally fired her up. No issues, cranked over about 3 times and fired off. Oil pressure sitting around 10-15psi at idle. Supposed to be nice Tuesday and Wednesday. Hopefully I can get out and get everything warmed up and check for leaks and retorques.

[SixShooter14]

ahh...nuts.

Fired her up today to ride to work and after about a minute some oil started dripping from the supply hose. Wasn't quite a stream, but was a steady 1 or 2 drips per second.... Shut her down and wiped it clean, it's coming from under the hose around the barb fitting. Gonna have to get some new oil lines.

[Deye76]

Use this, way better than auto parts hose. Will withstand high temperatures.
https://www.eastwood.com/derale-3-8-i-d-x-25-hi-temp-oil-hose-13017.html

[Dan89flstc]

SAE J30R7 is commonly available in most auto parts stores and has worked fine on my Softail EVO for many years.

A little harder to find, oil hose good to 300 degrees f:

SAE J30R9.

SAE J1019.

[SixShooter14]

slowly getting there... Got the new oil line back on and no more leaks.

Trouble now is I get a small knock just off idle... It sounds fine when idling slow or with just the starter spinning. But the minute I add a touch of throttle it starts knocking (I believe from the front).... I checked the pushrod adjustment a couple times now and they are adjusted properly.

I did look at the pushrods and lifters when I had the engine out and didn't notice any damage, but I didn't try pressing on the lifter pistons to see how they bleed down. But while adjusting, they seemed to bleed down fine after 10-15 minutes. Could it be one is not holding pressure or needs fully cleaned?

Other thought is maybe the compensator is loose, bad, or not installed correctly?

ETA: Maybe the comp. nut is bottoming out due to the new alternator rotor (maybe it's a touch thinner than previous?

[SixShooter14]

slowly getting there... Got the new oil line back on and no more leaks.

Trouble now is I get a small knock just off idle... It sounds fine when idling slow or with just the starter spinning. But the minute I add a touch of throttle it starts knocking (I believe from the front).... I checked the pushrod adjustment a couple times now and they are adjusted properly.

I did look at the pushrods and lifters when I had the engine out and didn't notice any damage, but I didn't try pressing on the lifter pistons to see how they bleed down. But while adjusting, they seemed to bleed down fine after 10-15 minutes. Could it be one is not holding pressure or needs fully cleaned?

Other thought is maybe the compensator is loose, bad, or not installed correctly?

ETA: Maybe the comp. nut is bottoming out due to the new alternator rotor (maybe it's a touch thinner than previous?

hmm... Pulled the inspection cover and compensator doesn't budge in either direction. No movement at all and chain has right around 3/4" give in it.

Thinking maybe at least 1 lifter is either no-bueno or lost it's prime when I jacked around with the oil leak. It took a couple tries to get the oil to maintain it's prime overnight with the leak I mentioned earlier. A couple times as I was turning the engine over with the starter, I know the gauge was showing 0 and tappet screen was empty (tells me the lifters weren't getting oil) So they absolutely may have pumped out and not been able to refill.


Anyone have advice on making sure the lifters are primed now that everything is together?

[kd]

I am sure you have heard it said here that the hydraulic lifter is the best known oil filter there is.  Considering the type of engine failure that sent you down this path, I would think it's very possible that you have a contaminated lifter body.  You had a lot of metal fines go through your oil galleries, lines and tank.  It's almost impossible to clear that from the system 100%. Especially the oil tank baffles. Most that know this replace the tank rather than trying the impossible - cleaning it well enough.

Not actually hearing the "knock" but going by your description I would be inclined to pull the lifters, disassemble them on a clean white towel, surgically clean them, prime them in a jar with vacuum and retest them.  DO NOT use an oil squirt can to prime them.  There's a better chance than not that you will reintroduce even 1 tiny spec of dirt that will cause a contamination failure.

[SixShooter14]

I am sure you have heard it said here that the hydraulic lifter is the best known oil filter there is.  Considering the type of engine failure that sent you down this path, I would think it's very possible that you have a contaminated lifter body.  You had a lot of metal fines go through your oil galleries, lines and tank.  It's almost impossible to clear that from the system 100%. Especially the oil tank baffles. Most that know this replace the tank rather than trying the impossible - cleaning it well enough.

Not actually hearing the "knock" but going by your description I would be inclined to pull the lifters, disassemble them on a clean white towel, surgically clean them, prime them in a jar with vacuum and retest them.  DO NOT use an oil squirt can to prime them.  There's a better chance than not that you will reintroduce even 1 tiny spec of dirt that will cause a contamination failure.

That's kinda what I was thinking too. Definitely could have been a spec of debris introduced at some point of the process.

[SixShooter14]

I decided to check the primary chain tension and was able to turn the sprocket a small bit. Rocking forward and back. It wasn't loose, but with a little pressure it definitely turned. The spring cup was tight

I pulled the primary cover and noticed that the turning I was getting was the comp. sprocket ramps contacting fore and aft.

I'm thinking the compensator nut may be bottoming out or bound up on something and not getting full pressure. I'm going to give it a thorough cleaning try re-installing with proper torque and measure the stack depth. (unfortunately, I didn't measure the stack prior to removal)


Here's the view from the rear prior to removing the nut.
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[FSG]

cut 50 thou of the nut while you have the comp apart

[JSD]

That picture tells the story. 

[FSG]

worth a read   

https://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=73290

[SixShooter14]

yep, taking .050" off the nut tomorrow to make sure it's not bottoming out. And I've got the .055" shim and a .020" shim to align the front/rear sprockets as needed.

[SixShooter14]

worth a read   

https://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=73290

whew, that's a lot of good reading ... glad you included pictures.

[FSG]

a good pic is worth a 1000 words   

[SixShooter14]

a good pic is worth a 1000 words   

Speaking of pictures...I measured the old vs. new rotor and found the below numbers.
When I installed the new rotor a couple weeks ago, I left the shim in and therefore the sprocket would have been 0.020" more outboard than the previous rotor..... Would that have been enough to cause the knocking I was hearing? or is it still more likely tied to the comp either being too little torque or the nut bottoming out?

Regardless, I'm going to shorten the comp nut today. Then I'll reinstall, torque properly, and make doubly sure the sprocket alignments is correct.

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[SixShooter14]

Alright folks... still chasing oil pump issues.

The new S&S pump is not keeping it's prime. I can pull the check ball and fill it with oil, then it'll pump up the tappet screen and build pressure. I run it for 4 or 5 minutes varying rpm 1-3k and it keeps pressure (though it seems low IMHO, about 3-15psi)

Then after I shut it down for a few minutes and come back and there's no pressure at all and the tappet screen is empty.


What do y'all think? a poorly aligned gasket letting oil leak down? I don't believe I'm getting any external leaking oil. Should I go back in and check the gaskets and keys? Oh, and fwiw I also tried to remove the pressure relief piston and had no luck. Little magnet that I used for the check ball would not lift it out.

[SixShooter14]

Well hell, of course I used the wrong hole...

A Caution note in the S&S instructions:

Bottom-mount oil supply line fitting is not recommended for Harley-Davidson® Dyna® or Road King® models with oil tank below
transmission because of possibility of cavitation or air lock occurring during oil changes.

Anyone think maybe this might be the issue with it not building or keeping pressure/flow?

[SixShooter14]

well....news flash... I'm an idiot. 

Turns out I had the supply and return lines switched. So the pump was trying to suck from a new dry filter. I got the lines switched and re-primed the pump and voila, turning over with just the starter pegs out my pressure gauge... Sure enough, it was pumping the prime out and then running dry.

Now a new little issue, the pump return line that goes to the filter doesn't stick into the compression fitting far enough for the nut to tighten on it. Gonna get a little extension for that fitting and should have her back together tomorrow.

[98fxstc]

Well done Six
We all feel like idiots sometimes, but finding your mistakes and fixin' them, puts us way out in front of blokes who don't have a go at all.

[SixShooter14]

the saga continues.

Bike starts and runs, idles good. Oil pressure stays well above the max of 30psi on my gauge.
BUT...the front cylinder is puffing out blueish smoke

Thinking a bad valve seal.

I didn't run it long enough to get really hot, just hot to the touch.
Back plug looks ok, but the front was black and just a bit wet.
Checked compression: 180 psi in both cyl. sorry, I don't have a leak-down tester.

[SP33DY]

the front cylinder is puffing out blueish smoke

Thinking a bad valve seal.

Also could be excessive valve guide clearance or #2 ring upside down

Lately I have seen a lot of stock TC heads with one excessively bad valve guide when the rest show almost no wear. Don't know if it is something with the gasoline or the metallurgy of the guides.

[SixShooter14]

Also could be excessive valve guide clearance or #2 ring upside down

Lately I have seen a lot of stock TC heads with one excessively bad valve guide when the rest show almost no wear. Don't know if it is something with the gasoline or the metallurgy of the guides.

I put the pistons/rings in about 4 years ago and haven't had any issues since. I also replaced valve guides/seal then.

With the current work, I've not pulled the front head off, just the rear. (Which surprisingly is good) I'm thinking it's either a valve seal or maybe the new HVHP oil pump blew a head gasket. There's air puffing out both head breather holes, but no oil coming out anywhere.

It's only about an hour to pull the head. I can checkout the piston/cyl. then.

[kd]

Also could be excessive valve guide clearance or #2 ring upside down

Lately I have seen a lot of stock TC heads with one excessively bad valve guide when the rest show almost no wear. Don't know if it is something with the gasoline or the metallurgy of the guides.

I put the pistons/rings in about 4 years ago and haven't had any issues since. I also replaced valve guides/seal then.

With the current work, I've not pulled the front head off, just the rear. (Which surprisingly is good) I'm thinking it's either a valve seal or maybe the new HVHP oil pump blew a head gasket. There's air puffing out both head breather holes, but no oil coming out anywhere.

It's only about an hour to pull the head. I can checkout the piston/cyl. then.

The likelihood of rings lining up is there but not great.  Same with a sudden valve seal issue with such a great amount of oil passing.  Those would be easy to diagnose with the disassembled components in hand. 

I would first consider the fact you have had the cam chest apart for the pump.  There is a better possibility that the cam timing is off and the blue smoke along with the black wet plug is cylinder was from fuel related to the cam timing.  When you start to break it down, pause at the cam plate and cams first. Your last time in there may have been a tooth out.

[Hossamania]

Change the plug and take it for a decent ride, see if it clears up.

[SixShooter14]

Also could be excessive valve guide clearance or #2 ring upside down

Lately I have seen a lot of stock TC heads with one excessively bad valve guide when the rest show almost no wear. Don't know if it is something with the gasoline or the metallurgy of the guides.

I put the pistons/rings in about 4 years ago and haven't had any issues since. I also replaced valve guides/seal then.

With the current work, I've not pulled the front head off, just the rear. (Which surprisingly is good) I'm thinking it's either a valve seal or maybe the new HVHP oil pump blew a head gasket. There's air puffing out both head breather holes, but no oil coming out anywhere.

It's only about an hour to pull the head. I can checkout the piston/cyl. then.

The likelihood of rings lining up is there but not great.  Same with a sudden valve seal issue with such a great amount of oil passing.  Those would be easy to diagnose with the disassembled components in hand. 

I would first consider the fact you have had the cam chest apart for the pump.  There is a better possibility that the cam timing is off and the blue smoke along with the black wet plug is cylinder was from fuel related to the cam timing.  When you start to break it down, pause at the cam plate and cams first. Your last time in there may have been a tooth out.

  I'm 99% sure the gear timing was right... BUT it's definitely possible (I was pretty sure about the oil line routing too and we saw how that went ).

[SixShooter14]

Change the plug and take it for a decent ride, see if it clears up.

that is awfully tempting. Definitely getting new plugs this week.

[Ohio HD]

Breather timing would be more likely to cause oil issues than cam timing.

[kd]

Six, I hadn't swallowed enough coffe yet when I responded.  I had twin cam brain. 

[SixShooter14]

Six, I hadn't swallowed enough coffe yet when I responded.  I had twin cam brain. 

haha...I knew what you meant.

As much as I hate to. I'll open the cam chest this evening and check all 3 gears are timed right.... Honestly, I'd almost rather pull the head off than open the cam chest

[kd]

Six, I hadn't swallowed enough coffe yet when I responded.  I had twin cam brain. 

haha...I knew what you meant.

As much as I hate to. I'll open the cam chest this evening and check all 3 gears are timed right.... Honestly, I'd almost rather pull the head off than open the cam chest

. We'll you have to get the exhaust off anyway.   

[SixShooter14]

Six, I hadn't swallowed enough coffe yet when I responded.  I had twin cam brain. 

haha...I knew what you meant.

As much as I hate to. I'll open the cam chest this evening and check all 3 gears are timed right.... Honestly, I'd almost rather pull the head off than open the cam chest

. We'll you have to get the exhaust off anyway.   

and the trans side cover and the torque arm... all of which I had off yesterday morning...  

[kd]

Six, I hadn't swallowed enough coffe yet when I responded.  I had twin cam brain. 

haha...I knew what you meant.

As much as I hate to. I'll open the cam chest this evening and check all 3 gears are timed right.... Honestly, I'd almost rather pull the head off than open the cam chest

. We'll you have to get the exhaust off anyway.   

and the trans side cover and the torque arm... all of which I had off yesterday morning...  

Getting good at it? 

[SixShooter14]

. We'll you have to get the exhaust off anyway.   

alright, exhaust is off... 2 things noticed thus far.
#1 The ignition timing was pretty far off. I must have missed my mark because it was off by probably 8-10 degrees of rotation when I re-static timed it. (CCW if it matters)...

#2 the exhaust valve has shiny oil on it and the inside of the exhaust port is coated with shiny oil on top and dry sooty oil on bottom.... (I'm guessing the oil is misted up from the exhaust gas and it sticks to the top of the port rather than the bottom?)


anyway.... next step? pull head or open cam chest? (or both?)

[kd]

. We'll you have to get the exhaust off anyway.   

alright, exhaust is off... 2 things noticed thus far.
#1 The ignition timing was pretty far off. I must have missed my mark because it was off by probably 8-10 degrees of rotation when I re-static timed it. (CCW if it matters)...

#2 the exhaust valve has shiny oil on it and the inside of the exhaust port is coated with shiny oil on top and dry sooty oil on bottom.... (I'm guessing the oil is misted up from the exhaust gas and it sticks to the top of the port rather than the bottom?)


anyway.... next step? pull head or open cam chest? (or both?)

I would continue the cam chest component confirmation before moving on. Finding the timing error is good but not likely the cause of the wet oil.  Remember the plug was black for some time.

IMO if the intake valve is dry when you view it through the port after the intake manifold is removed and you find the exhaust wet it could indicate an exhaust valve seal is damaged. If the intake valve is wet too, the intake valve seal may be the one that is damaged.  If you didn't use viton seals it can be more common to damage them.  The viton seals will withstand more severe service conditions.  A few things could cause that including lack of lubrication that day that you put some miles on it trying to get the oil pressure up or just heat (even from the timing issue) allowing the seal hat to release from the top of the valve guide and start to float under the valve spring retainer.  Oil on the top only will be unburned vapor and the soot will of course be combusted oil. (the mass of the oil vapor will cause it to fling high as the exhaust valve is open on the exhaust stroke)

Hopefully the wet unburned oil isn't from cylinder damage occurring during the aforementioned lack of oil flow period. Slight amounts of oil slinging off the flywheels into the cylinders is part of the big picture keeping the pistons, rings and barrels lubed. The rear cylinder gets the first portion and if there is none left the scraper between the rear and front cylinder will reduce the chance of any getting into the front barrel.  That can cause piston, ring or cylinder damage.  Now that you have oil flow the oil may be introduced through a bad ring / piston seal.

For the above reasons (if it were me) I would stay on track and go one step at a time.  If you just tear it down it'll be hard to inspect everything with any real certainty of finding the demon that has appeared.  I am confident you will find the issue if you use good order in your approach.  Either way I expect you will find some mechanical fault other than the ignition timing.

     

[SixShooter14]

For the above reasons (if it were me) I would stay on track and go one step at a time.  If you just tear it down it'll be hard to inspect everything with any real certainty of finding the demon that has appeared. I am confident you will find the issue if you use good order in your approach.  Either way I expect you will find some mechanical fault other than the ignition timing.

Thanks. That is all pretty much what I was thinking as well. Will open the cam chest and pull the head off tomorrow.

[kd]

For the above reasons (if it were me) I would stay on track and go one step at a time.  If you just tear it down it'll be hard to inspect everything with any real certainty of finding the demon that has appeared. I am confident you will find the issue if you use good order in your approach.  Either way I expect you will find some mechanical fault other than the ignition timing.

Thanks. That is all pretty much what I was thinking as well. Will open the cam chest and pull the head off tomorrow.

If you remove the throttle body (or carb) before the manifold, try to observe the oil film in the manifold if there is any.  You may be able to see if the cam overlap is contaminating the length of the intake manifold bore and how bad the oil contamination is.  Once yo get the head off, if your piston has any carbon on the top look for clean spots around circumference of the piston at the cylinder wall that will indicate engine oil bypassing the rings.

[SixShooter14]

For the above reasons (if it were me) I would stay on track and go one step at a time.  If you just tear it down it'll be hard to inspect everything with any real certainty of finding the demon that has appeared. I am confident you will find the issue if you use good order in your approach.  Either way I expect you will find some mechanical fault other than the ignition timing.

Thanks. That is all pretty much what I was thinking as well. Will open the cam chest and pull the head off tomorrow.

If you remove the throttle body (or carb) before the manifold, try to observe the oil film in the manifold if there is any.  You may be able to see if the cam overlap is contaminating the length of the intake manifold bore and how bad the oil contamination is.  Once you get the head off, if your piston has any carbon on the top look for clean spots around circumference of the piston at the cylinder wall that will indicate engine oil bypassing the rings.

will do. I pulled the air cleaner off and there was no oil in the carb or filter, but I didn't specifically look down the throat.

[SixShooter14]

If you remove the throttle body (or carb) before the manifold, try to observe the oil film in the manifold if there is any.  You may be able to see if the cam overlap is contaminating the length of the intake manifold bore and how bad the oil contamination is.  Once yo get the head off, if your piston has any carbon on the top look for clean spots around circumference of the piston at the cylinder wall that will indicate engine oil bypassing the rings.

Got the head off and now I'm thinking it was the head gasket that went. There isn't really any wet oil on the piston or the intake valve, and no fresh oil on the exhaust valve after a week of sitting. But around the front of the gasket it was quite wet. The MLS gasket looks pretty ok and the head nuts were all good and tight on the studs (and no studs came out...

I haven't checked the cam/breather/pinion timing yet, that's next on the list.

thoughts and opinions?
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[SixShooter14]

so my current thoughts are that the head gasket failed under the exhaust port near that front dowel. That's where the oil was sitting and the fire ring is pretty much black right there.

A) I got a few pops and puffs of flame through the carb when starting prior to the smoke. So, it might be a case of the ignition timing being off coupled with a cold engine?

B) It's also highly likely that when the oil pump failed and I rode the 2-ish miles home that it got too hot under that exhaust port. Then once the pump got to pumping and pressure returned, it blew into the cyl.

[SixShooter14]

so my current thoughts are...

B) It's also highly likely that when the oil pump failed and I rode the 2-ish miles home that it got too hot under that exhaust port. Then once the pump got to pumping and pressure returned, it blew into the cyl.

welp, pulled the front cyl. and it's not pretty... Looks like she definitely ran dry for a bit. Time to pull the rear cylinder and off to the machine shop they go. Currently bored +0.010, will probably end up around +20 or 30.

On a positive note, the connecting rod has almost no side-to-side play. I'll give them a better look when the rear is off.


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[Ohio HD]

That's ugly!   

I'm surprised it didn't seize.

[fbn ent]

OUCH !!

[Deye76]

"the connecting rod has almost no side-to-side play."

Check for up and down movement also.

[SP33DY]

"the connecting rod has almost no side-to-side play."

Check for up and down movement also.

After all that has happened, use the connecting rods to slowly roll the flywheels a few times. Feel for any roughness or binding. If there's no roughness or binding you are probably ok, but if you do feel anything, it's time to pull the flywheels and redo the rod bearings.

[rigidthumper]

All that metal went somewhere- time to pull/clean the oil pan, R&R every rubber line, clean everything you are not replacing. ( clean the new items too, just to be safe)