Starting Problem/Clock Reset

[Jim Bronson]

Its always something. Bike started fine this morning in the garage. I rode about 10 minutes to the gas station. After gassing up, It wouldn't turn over, only the dreaded "ooomph" sound. I shut it off and waited a few minutes and tried again. It then started albeit reluctantly. I rode abut 50 mi. and parked. After breakfast, it started right up with no problem. I then noticed that the clock had reset to 12:00. On the road, the battery voltage is about 14.1 (per the PV), so it appears to be taking a charge. After coming home and checking it again, it indicates 12.1. Does this sound familiar? I'll take some more readings later this evening. Good grief Charlie Brown.


2024 Heritage.

[Deye76]

 I'll trust the multi-tester over PV.

[Hossamania]

Check the battery for loose cables. Do a couple voltage tests, standing and running.

[Jim Bronson]

I'll try a graphing test tomorrow. Should be fun.

[FXDBI]

running a auto tune generated map?

[Jim Bronson]

Yes, I finished it earlier in the week.

[lonewolf]

Just went through same symptoms on my dyna. Replacing a just over 1 year old battery cured it. 

[Jim Bronson]

Just went through same symptoms on my dyna. Replacing a just over 1 year old battery cured it. 

Many thanks. The bike is due for the 1k service, so I'll have them replace it. I'll be glad to tell them another owner had the same issue. 

[lonewolf]

Maybe just put a volt meter on the battery when you crank it? Check to see if it drops to 9-10 volts first.

[pauly]

Yep - It sure sounds like a battery or (as Hoss said) loose connections

Thanks
Pauly

Just went through same symptoms on my dyna. Replacing a just over 1 year old battery cured it. 

[Jim Bronson]

Checking the voltage while cranking is a good troubleshooting technique. It is a matter of finding a convenient place to connect the + meter lead.

It is a brand new bike, so it can't possibly be loose connections - right? 

[rigidthumper]

Designed & assembled by humans, so...

[Jim Bronson]

Connections are good. Voltage measured at the maxi-fuse during cranking dropped to 9+. I think that's way too low, even though the bike started ok this time. Voltage with the switch on measures 12.2 at the fuse, and that agrees with the PV gauge. With the switch off, voltage at the fuse measures 12.78. I think the battery is toast.

[Hossamania]

Those numbers lean that way, though 12.7v is about 90% charge, but the drop to 12.2v is 50%, not good.

Another test would be to check running voltage with this battery, and then with the new battery, should be higher than 14.1v at 2000 rpm. A bad battery will bring that down.

[rigidthumper]

Connections are good. Voltage measured at the maxi-fuse during cranking dropped to 9+. I think that's way too low, even though the bike started ok this time. Voltage with the switch on measures 12.2 at the fuse, and that agrees with the PV gauge. With the switch off, voltage at the fuse measures 12.78. I think the battery is toast.

Dropping to 9V during cranking will cause the clock to reset, and the ignition system isn't supposed to throw spark if B+ drops below 9.6VDC.
Looks like the battery may have a dead cell- check with your dealer, to see if the factory warranty will cover it. IDR if a battery is covered under the "2 years, unlimited miles" thing, but there is a warranty code for battery replacement.

[calif phil]

Just replaced a battery in a 2023 Heritage last week, in service for about a year and 4 months, 8000 miles on the bike, told the customer he could get a warranty on it, he said screw it, put a battery in, since the closest dealer is 2 hours away. 

[Jim Bronson]

Connections are good. Voltage measured at the maxi-fuse during cranking dropped to 9+. I think that's way too low, even though the bike started ok this time. Voltage with the switch on measures 12.2 at the fuse, and that agrees with the PV gauge. With the switch off, voltage at the fuse measures 12.78. I think the battery is toast.

Dropping to 9V during cranking will cause the clock to reset, and the ignition system isn't supposed to throw spark if B+ drops below 9.6VDC.
Looks like the battery may have a dead cell- check with your dealer, to see if the factory warranty will cover it. IDR if a battery is covered under the "2 years, unlimited miles" thing, but there is a warranty code for battery replacement.

Good info. Thanks a lot. I just bought the bike in June, so I can't imagine the dealer not replacing it under warranty. If they won't, I'm done with them. I'll let them do my 1K service at the same time and fix a couple of nit items. I guess there's no point in resetting the clock until I get a new battery. It was hard to tell exactly how low the voltage dropped during cranking, but I remember seeing 9 something on the multi-meter before it started. At least I wasn't stranded on Sunday.

[Tacocaster]

You're not the first - nor will be the last, to have multiple and seemingly conflicting symptoms (is it electrical or mechanical or fuel???) that can be easily rationalized away by someone who has experienced the issue(s) before or just has that overall understanding of our rides.
The purpose and value of this Forum and its Members!

Good to hear you've got the problem in hand.

[Jim Bronson]

Back from the dealer. They pronounced the battery good and refused to replace it, even when I told the complete story. The counter guy spewed so much bulls**t, I had to come home and clean my boots. They tested it on their fancy tester and charged me $168. I could have bought a good aftermarket battery for that and not wasted 3 hours of my time. Needless to say, I will NEVER go back to that or any other dealer. I'm all done being jacked around.

I can't easily connect my jump starter pack to the battery without taking it out of the bike, so I'll pick up a short length of battery cable and connect it to the battery+ terminal and route it to an out-of-the way location and cap it with a plastic cap for easy access.

I feel so good now knowing I won't be throwing any more money at dealerships, especially since there are several good indys nearby.

Rant complete.

[kd]

Jim, red positive lead to the main power stud (usually under the flexible rubber cover) on the starter solenoid and the black negative lead to the frame or something like a passenger foot peg mounting bolt with your jump starter will be as direct as if you hooked up to the battery posts.  The starter solonoid cable is connected directly to the positive battery post. Easy peasy.  I do it all the time.

[Jim Bronson]

Thanks KD. As you mentioned, my twin cam starters all had a nice battery connection under a rubber boot right on top of the starter. I don't see that on my 2024 Heritage, but I'll keep looking. The M8 might not be as convenient as the TCs were.

[kd]

It'll be there and should be accessible for starter removal purposes.  You need a good hard battery "cable" power connection for cranking.  I have no experience to support where it is on your model though. 

[hattitude]

I have not seen a 2024 Heritage in person, so can't speak about them with confidence.

But on my Twin Cam Heritage, unlike my bagger, that starter stud is pretty hard to get to. It is under the oil tank, surrounded by metal stuf, most of which would be grounded to the frame.

It takes some steady hands and courage, if you want to try to get a hot starter cable or jump pack cable onto that stud.

I'm not a big fan of Doc Harley, as he can be quite the HD choir boy... but sometimes, he shares some good info.

In this video he talks about how hard it can be to access that stud on some models. He also shares info about a homemade tool that can help. Not sure about the tool, but it demonstrates how hard that stud can be to access...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5Nn736TYJs

[Jim Bronson]

I checked my '24 Heritage. In order to access the starter stud, I need to remove the side cover (no big deal). It is tucked way up on top of the starter and has a plastic cover that would need to be removed or pried out of the way temporarily. I couldn't even see it without my inspection camera, since it is completely obscured by the battery caddy. Doc Harley's tool would probably work, but I would be flying blind to get it in place. It would probably be a two man operation to hold the cover up and slide the tool in. It is a good idea though. The only modification would be to dip the tool in Plasti-Dip and remove excess from just the edge where it contacts the stud. I think I'll make one.

Thanks Hattitude.

[Coyote]

Use the battery terminal. The starter terminal is surrounded by things you don't want to touch. Trying to use the starter terminal is a good way to short out the battery IMO.

[Jim Bronson]

The battery is located below the shock under the seat. Accessing the + terminal with the power pack clip is not possible. It would have to fit between the shock coils and be very well insulated to keep it away from the surrounding metal. My original idea to install a short stub of battery wire and dead-end it with some sort of wire nut would work, and I wouldn't even have to remove the seat.

[fbn ent]

You will tire of having to jump it quickly...If I was you I'd get the indy or NAPA to test the battery. I'd say it's either that or a major drain, probably from the charging system...

[Jim Bronson]

O'Reillys will test it for free. That's what I'll do if keeps getting worse. Meanwhile, I'll keep it on the tender. The dealer told me that new bikes need to be on a tender all the time, and I think that's BS.

[Coyote]

Have you measured the quiescent draw on the battery?

[Jim Bronson]

Have you measured the quiescent draw on the battery?

Not directly. I can pop the maxi-fuse and measure it. As I understand, it should only be 2-3 ma. for the security system.

[Coyote]

I think you will be higher than that for drain. I'd say it should be under 10mA though. If you measure it, you'll need to be on a mA scale. Make sure you put a shorting lead across your meter leads, then hook it in series with the battery. Wait about 15 seconds  and then remove the shorting lead to get your measurement. If you don't do this, you may blow the fuse in your meter as the bike draws more until the ECM goes asleep.

[Jim Bronson]

Thanks for the tip. I didn't realize the ECM was initially powered with the switch off.

[Coyote]

When you first connect the battery, it fully powers up for a short time, then goes to sleep. There are also caps that charge when first connected.

[Jim Bronson]

Current reads 1-3 ma and jumps around a bit. I'm calling it good. The battery reads 12.7 open circuit, 12.4 on the PV (switch on of course) after being on the tender overnight. I'll just keep an eye on it.

Thanks all.

[Coyote]

I'd prefer the test done on the negative lead to the battery. But if it is that low, it really points to a bad battery.

[Jim Bronson]

I forgot to mention that the dealer tested it out of the bike on their expensive Midtronics tester, and it tested good. I'm not completely convinced, but I'll accept the results for now. One theory is that most of my rides lately have been short for break-in and autotune, so it didn't have an opportunity to fully charge. All of these rides were done without a battery tender. Maybe that was a mistake.

[rigidthumper]

I've seen the Midtronics tester pass a battery that failed on a conventional load pile tester, but the factory would only accept the printout from the midtronics unit. 
Our dealership replaced those batteries out of "customer goodwill", just to try to help.

[Jim Bronson]

Well crapola. My dealer would never replace a battery that tests good on their tester, however they were happy to charge me $175 to test it  . I think I have an old style load tester around here somewhere. If the problem persists, I'll run a test and replace the battery on my own dime if it fails. Needless to say, they won't be working on my bike again.

[Tacocaster]

$175!?!? Holy......! Did they remove the engine to pull the battery out of the bike? Ridiculous! They'd NEVER see my face again even if the next dealer was 100 miles away.

[rigidthumper]

Might make a call to corporate, and let them know an "authorized dealer" charged you for warranty.

[Jim Bronson]

I'm guessing that if the battery had tested bad, they would have replaced it under warranty and wouldn't have charged for the testing. Knowing this dealer, I could be wrong about that.

In a side note, I received a letter from the dealer today with a coupon offering an oil/filter change for $150. Sounds good until I read the fine print. The price is for conventional HD oil, not even their crappy Syn3. It would be extra for Syn3. It also doesn't include additional unlisted "fees". They list it as a "$600 value". Huh? Since when does anyone charge that much for a simple oil/filter change using conventional oil? I can't imagine how much a three-hole fluid change would be. I will just change it myself from now on using quality oil. This is sad because this dealer used to be honest.

[Hossamania]

Any good independent shops around to do routine service and repairs for you?
I'd put a proper Tender on the battery, top it off, see what happens. If at any time it gives any hint of a stall while starting, I'd get a new battery, top it off with the Tender, and install it.

[Jim Bronson]

I'll do as you suggest Hoss. The battery tender responds normally when connected. I just don't believe it needs to be connected continuously, as the dealer said. There's a good indy that I've used before not far from my home. I'll use them from now on. They are well respected and have been in business for 25 years.

[Hossamania]

I leave mine connected almost continuously, even on the old bike that has no security draw. I will disconnect them occasionally just to let things rest for a couple days. If I know I'm going riding the next day, I try to remember to plug it back in. Peace of mind.
Take that thing for a good long ride, it's just mad at you for not letting it stretch its legs!

[kd]

I leave mine connected almost continuously, even on the old bike that has no security draw. I will disconnect them occasionally just to let things rest for a couple days. If I know I'm going riding the next day, I try to remember to plug it back in. Peace of mind.
Take that thing for a good long ride, it's just mad at you for not letting it stretch its legs!

   Hoss it's already mad at him.  You do remember Jim saying it was quitting around town in short trips?    He may not be ready for that long ride yet.

[pauly]

Is it possible the retune between rides was sucking a lot of battery?
Not sure which tuner you're using Jim, but if you're using TTS, From memory, you gotta have the bike turned on, do this, do that, write the new tune etc, which can suck a bit of battery.
I'm with you though. I reckon if you're stuck a new Deka battery in there, the problem would be solved.
$175 to check a battery??? Omg what a scam.

Pauly

[Jim Bronson]

The Powervision tuner does need to be turned on to prepare it for the autotune sessions and again to write the tune afterwards, but it is only for a few minutes. I don't think it would be enough time to seriously draw down the battery. My guess is that between autotuning and short break-in rides the battery didn't have an opportunity to fully charge between rides. I'll be keeping it on the tender between rides from now on and see what happens.

Thanks for responding.

[fbn ent]

FWIW, I run a TMax on my '02 and when I want to mess with it on the computer I pull the lighting fuse to keep the draw at a minimum.

[Jim Bronson]

I just disconnect the PV and use USB to connect to the PC.

Four starts yesterday after living on the battery tender for a week. Two hot starts and two cold starts, so I'm calling the battery good. I'll be back later to eat those words.