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Rocker Arm Supports

Started by boatdoc, January 06, 2025, 12:36:10 PM

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boatdoc

What's the advice on rocker supports. Cycle solutions, Vulcan , Woods offset?
Engine is a twin cam 124 , 110 heads ported and bigger valves , 630 cam ,S&S roller rockers , screaming eagle forged rocker supports with rocker lockers , larry's lifters with limiters, smith bros pushrods.
The top end tick is back and the only thing i can find is end play in the roller rockers to the support.
Front cylinder intake .011 and exhaust .012. Service manual says .025 is ok but i can only imagine the noise that would make. Rocker arm has worn in about .008 into the thrust side of each support.
This is the second set of forged Harley supports this has happened to.
So i could machine the wear out, machine the non thrust side and install a shim on my current supports but then the rocker arm will just wear into the support again. Everything i read says to shim the non thrust side.
Anyone have experience with any of the other rocker supports that would be better and last longer?
The current rocker supports have less than 15,000 km on them.
Thanks for reading, the knowledge on here is amazing.

Ohio HD

I've used SE rocker supports and Vulcan Engineering supports. The Vulcan supports are machined much better than the SE, no surprise there. In the photo below the rocker arms were pushed to the top, and you can barely see a crack at the bottom where the rocker meets the support. In honesty all four took an 0.006" feeler gauge. An 0.007" would go in if I forced it. I've used a few sets if these Vulcan supports on mine and also on others motors. No complaints at all with them.

Also I see that the HD OEM end play spec. is 0.003" to 0.013". Is that you're noise, who knows. I expect to hear more noise than a stock motor with high lift cams and heavier valve springs. Also a nice feature with the Vulcan 3800A supports is they have set screws to lock the rocker shaft, no way it will move. You can see the two lock screws in the left side support. Also the rocker arms in the photo are from R&R Cycles.


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-deuced-

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Is that the crack? Ouch!

I'm running the Vulcan supports. I think they are well made. I had a problem with installation due to the flat bottom of the support interfering with the uneven surface of the oem lower rocker box. The rocker support was rockin'. I attacked the inside of the lower rocker box with a dremel until the support sat flat before I bolted everything together. I did not touch the bolt bosses with the dremel but my rocker boxes are chrome and I went through the chrome and into the aluminium base of the rocker boxes in a couple of places. Maybe that will promote peeling of the remaining chrome??? I did think about applying a coat of clear over it but did not. I feel I "blended" pretty well with the dremel and I'm satisfied with the result but if I ever see chrome in the oil filter.....................

I also used the dremel to clearance the ribs in the upper rocker boxes due to running roller rockers, not because of the Vulcan supports. Again, I went through the chrome but I'm ok with it. And I do suffer with CDO.

I haven't put many miles on the bike since installing the Vulcan supports but the motor is quieter than before. Are they better than the other aftermarket offerings? I don't know but they are definitely better made than the stock supports. The grub screws to hold the rocker arm shafts are an excellent feature.

I used four large countersunk screws to centre the rocker supports during installation. Just put them in fingertight/snug and replace with the proper bolt during the torque procedure. I also used the large countersunk screws to line up the upper rocker box during assembly.

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Oh, what is CDO you ask? It's like OCD but it's in the correct alphabetical order!  :hyst:

hattitude

Quote from: -deuced- on January 06, 2025, 07:11:04 PMAnd I do suffer with CDO.



Oh, what is CDO you ask? It's like OCD but it's in the correct alphabetical order! 




 :hyst:     :hyst:     :hyst:

Ohio HD

Quote from: -deuced- on January 06, 2025, 07:11:04 PMIs that the crack? Ouch!

No, I was referring to the open gap.



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-deuced-

Need to work on my english comprehension.

itsafatboy

So the tick was gone and then started again, or did something change and the tick started , just wondering ad what cam are you using, if changing i would use the vulcan, unless you need to correct pushrod geometry then the woods would help ,  is the noise from the front exhaust valve side?   

-deuced-

I measured end play during install, wrote it down somewhere??? but I don't remember any difference between sitting on the bench and bolted in. Running 575 lift cams with 600 lift springs. Not as high or as heavy as OP but engine is quieter than stock.

Regarding machining of existing supports for shims, I tend to agree that shimming the non-thrust side will not stop wear on the thrust side. But what if the thrust side was shimmed with bronze alloy? Think valve guide material. Manganese bronze or aluminium silicon bronze. Hard wearing, low friction.

Ohio HD

Quote from: -deuced- on January 08, 2025, 05:23:08 PMI measured end play during install, wrote it down somewhere??? but I don't remember any difference between sitting on the bench and bolted in. Running 575 lift cams with 600 lift springs. Not as high or as heavy as OP but engine is quieter than stock.

I saw the same with the Vulcan supports, bolted down or free standing the end play was the same. As long as the lower rocker box is flat and without any burrs from the casting the support should sit flat and won't distort.

In my 124" with the S&S 625 cams, there is very little valve train noise. Just what I would expect from the roller rockers, a very mild metallic sound. But it's consistent regardless of RPM.

boatdoc

Thanks for all the advice.
I ordered the Vulcan supports.
I will also make sure they sit flat on the lower rocker box.
I have had the roller rockers for a while and actually like the sewing machine sound they make.
Last time I replaced the rocker supports i rebuilt the roller rockers, they are still in good condition this time.

JSD


turboprop

Quote from: Ohio HD on January 09, 2025, 05:21:06 PM
Quote from: -deuced- on January 08, 2025, 05:23:08 PMI measured end play during install, wrote it down somewhere??? but I don't remember any difference between sitting on the bench and bolted in. Running 575 lift cams with 600 lift springs. Not as high or as heavy as OP but engine is quieter than stock.

I saw the same with the Vulcan supports, bolted down or free standing the end play was the same. As long as the lower rocker box is flat and without any burrs from the casting the support should sit flat and won't distort.

In my 124" with the S&S 625 cams, there is very little valve train noise. Just what I would expect from the roller rockers, a very mild metallic sound. But it's consistent regardless of RPM.

What compression are you running those 625 cams at in your 124?
'We' like this' - Said by the one man operation.

Ohio HD

Quote from: turboprop on January 10, 2025, 08:52:47 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on January 09, 2025, 05:21:06 PM
Quote from: -deuced- on January 08, 2025, 05:23:08 PMI measured end play during install, wrote it down somewhere??? but I don't remember any difference between sitting on the bench and bolted in. Running 575 lift cams with 600 lift springs. Not as high or as heavy as OP but engine is quieter than stock.

I saw the same with the Vulcan supports, bolted down or free standing the end play was the same. As long as the lower rocker box is flat and without any burrs from the casting the support should sit flat and won't distort.

In my 124" with the S&S 625 cams, there is very little valve train noise. Just what I would expect from the roller rockers, a very mild metallic sound. But it's consistent regardless of RPM.

What compression are you running those 625 cams at in your 124?

I set this one up with 11.3 static, comes out to 9.8 corrected (about 200ccp). This is for daily riding in any situation. These are good cams that give a wide power band in a larger motor. 

JSD

Inlet closing at 55 ABDC so does it pull from down low or does it like to rev . Being a 124" I'm curious. Thanks in advance. Sorry for the drift.

Ohio HD

Quote from: JSD on January 10, 2025, 05:36:00 PMInlet closing at 55 ABDC so does it pull from down low or does it like to rev . Being a 124" I'm curious. Thanks in advance. Sorry for the drift.

Inlet closing doesn't dictate where the power is made as long as you have enough compression for the cam. The S&S 625 minimum compression in a 124" IMO would be 11.3, and maximum at 12.0. This assuming pump gas and fuel injected. What makes the power low or higher are all of the cam specs, and with compression changes and cubic inch changes, the power band changes. As well head flow, exhaust flow, and TB size play parts in the power range. That's why M8 motors have earlier torque than TC motors, much better flow of stock heads.


Deye76

Alot of guys who were disappointed in the .625's ran them at 10-10.5 static in a heavy bike. The S&S.600 for Evo's is roughly the same cam, I run one currently in a 113" in a light bike (FXR), does everything I require from it, very well.
East Tenn.<br /> 2020 Lowrider S Touring, 2014 CVO RK,  1992 FXRP

turboprop

Quote from: Deye76 on January 12, 2025, 06:42:56 AMAlot of guys who were disappointed in the .625's ran them at 10-10.5 static in a heavy bike. The S&S.600 for Evo's is roughly the same cam, I run one currently in a 113" in a light bike (FXR), does everything I require from it, very well.

The description from S&S says to run them at 10:1 - 10.75:1 in 95" or larger engines.

https://www.sscycle.com/products/625g-gear-drive-camshaft-kit-for-06-hd-dyna-and-2007-16-big-twins/
'We' like this' - Said by the one man operation.

Deye76

#17
I ran the .625 in a 113" fully dressed Roadglide @ 10.5:1, anemic until 3000+ rpm. 
 
East Tenn.<br /> 2020 Lowrider S Touring, 2014 CVO RK,  1992 FXRP

Deye76

While I'm beating this poor horse :horse:, to be fair, that .625 I ran @ 10.5:1, Harley had changed the primary ratio from 3.37 to 3.15 which didn't help. Also if I had cranking compression up around 200 psi+ it would have been a lot better. The .600 I mentioned that I run in my FXR cranks 210 psi.   
East Tenn.<br /> 2020 Lowrider S Touring, 2014 CVO RK,  1992 FXRP

fbn ent

And...back to the Vulcan supports. Still chasing top end noise at operating temperature. :emoGroan: I just pulled my rocker supports and found the end play is a between .013 and .014. I could have sworn it was less but  :nix: . Before I spend my hard saved Canadian pesos I have a couple questions. Does the end play increase with heat? It isn't there until the engine gets hot but it is annoyingly loud when it shows up. Running TW55 cams and SE 103+ heads. Are roller rockers needed? Still looking...
'02 FLTRI - 103" / '84 FLH - 88"<br />Hinton, Alberta

fbn ent

I ask because I plan to order the Vulcan units but am wondering about the roller rockers as they sell them too. The S&S rockers I have are standard ones. I didn't think the cams were big enough to warrant the $$$.
'02 FLTRI - 103" / '84 FLH - 88"<br />Hinton, Alberta

JSD

 Not required with.550" lift

kd

KD

-deuced-

Quote from: fbn ent on January 17, 2025, 07:46:51 PMAnd.............Does the end play increase with heat?...............

No. It should decrease as engine gets hot and parts expand from heat. That's why there is a specification for end play and it's measured when cold.

JSD

Quote from: -deuced- on January 18, 2025, 02:33:56 PM
Quote from: fbn ent on January 17, 2025, 07:46:51 PMAnd.............Does the end play increase with heat?...............

No. It should decrease as engine gets hot and parts expand from heat. That's why there is a specification for end play and it's measured when cold.
I would thought increase when hot .