adjusting new S&S lifters

[stroker800]

  I'm installing new S&S lifters,,,,,using Andrews chromemoly p-rods....differnt instructions with theses rods...I soaked lifters over night in oil,,,,installed lifters,,,then paper work said to bottom out rod till no longer finger loose,,,then 3-4 full turns then lock down,,,,,seems too easy,,no bleed down procedure? Oh yeah I hate doin hydraulics...the lifter could be compressed easily with fingers about 1/4 inch,,in this correct??   thanks
Dave

[les]

If the instructions came with the pushrods, then I'd toss the pushrod instructions.  Pushrods have nothing to do with "adjusting the pushrods".  What actually is happening is that you are adjusting the lifters.  Pushrods are just sticks and any stick will work on top of a lifter, if the length of the pushrod sets the lifter to specs.

The total travel of the lifters is .200".  So, you want to adjust your sticks (pushrods) in the middle, which is .100".  Take a thread guage and measure the threads of the pushrods.

18 TPI = 1.8 turns past zero lash = .100"
24 TPI = 2.4 turns past zero lash = .100"
32 TPI = 3.2 turns past zero lash = .100"

If you're using stock or replacement to stock lifters (.200" total travel) then you never need instructions to the pushrods (they can even be distracting), you just need your thread guage.

[les]

always need to let lifters bleed down.

[TheSwede]

The reason that the lifters is easy to compress,,is because
there is no oil in them,,otherwise you could not compress them,,
be careful to determind when the pushrods beginning to compress the lifters,,
the soaking of lifters do not work,, because if it does,,
there be bubbles in the procedure,,and I think you not see that,

Best Regards
TheSwede

[gryphon]

Do you have the travel limiters in your lifters.

[stroker800]

   OK then ,,,brand new lifters ,,,dry,,,did soak in oil,,still able to compress easily...there are NO rev limiters in these,,,so with no oil there no bleed down time,,,basically the movement I get in the lifter is the total travel of lifter,,,so basically split the difference...sounds like the thread gauge is the way to go,,set at .100,,,this is why I like solids ,,,,only get 1 answer and its the way I have done it for years...thanks
Dave

[Buddy WMC]

Guys go through this procedure all the time. I differ in that the engine is always turned over with the starter and plugs removed until I see the lifters fill with oil, no if's and or buts. Then the adjustment procedure follows.

[les]

The reason that the lifters is easy to compress,,is because
there is no oil in them,,otherwise you could not compress them,,
be careful to determind when the pushrods beginning to compress the lifters,,
the soaking of lifters do not work,, because if it does,,
there be bubbles in the procedure,,and I think you not see that,

Best Regards
TheSwede

These are wise words.  A new lifter can really fool you.  When taking out the lash, many times a new one won't offer the resistence that a primed lifter does.  This means that your fingers can easily continue to compress the lifter "thinking" you're still searching for zero lash while all the time going past it.

[Dan89flstc]

If the instructions came with the pushrods, then I'd toss the pushrod instructions.  Pushrods have nothing to do with "adjusting the pushrods".  What actually is happening is that you are adjusting the lifters.  

I have to disagree with your description, Pushrods have everything to do with "adjusting the pushrods", your are adjusting the "pushrods", which set the position of the piston in the lifter.

[les]

Think of this way, Dan.  Do the pushrods care how long they are?  No.  Do the lifters care how deep they are depressed?  Yes.  You are adjusting the lifters, which need to be set exactly.  The pushrods have a large range of available lengths.

[Dan89flstc]

Adjustable pushrods have threads and nuts and are adjusted for length, that`s why they are called adjustable pushrods..

[fxr4mikey]

to-ma-toe or to-mot-toe


but I agree with Dan .... it is the push rod that is being adjusted, otherwise the lifters would have threads and nuts on them.
I also agree that it is the length of the 'ADJUSTED PUSH ROD' that determines the pre-set depth of travel in the lilfter

soaking the lifters in oil over night only makes the lifters slipperly ... it CAN NOT, and DOES NOT pre-fill the lifter with oil. The only way you can 'charge' the lifter is by 'pumping' it up .. this can be done several ways (which is for another thread, or post, or another time/day, as I'm feeling lazy this morning and not typing all that now)

or

you can install your lifters with no oil in them

adjusted your push rods to zero lash, at which time you can spin the push rods freely between your thump and finger .... because there is no oil in the lifter, so when you adjusted the push rod, the lifter went down, versus the valve opening as is the case if you were adjusting oil filled lifters

if you did it with no oil in the lifters, then there is no bleed down down, you can go directly to the next cylinder

do the same thing ....

then, I'd suggest that you turn the engine over, in several burst, WITHOUT THE PLUGS INSTALLED.  This will put 'SOME' oil in the lifters. It WILL NOT fully charge your lifters because while turning the engine over with just the starter DOES NOT produce enough oil pressure to fully pump up the lifter

when you start the bike, there will be a lot of valve train noise until the lifters pump up .... do not rev the engine during this short time period while the lifters are pumping up .......... after a several seconds you should notice the valve train noise level going down ......

check for leaks around the push rod tubes, and/or any other places that you had opened while working on the engine ...

go ride and enjoy .......

[les]

Ok, I'll try one last time.  Let's say you get a set of pushrods that are 24 TPI and the pushrod instructions say to adjust them 2 and a half turns.  But let's say you're using limited travel lifters instead of stock.  So, what are you going to do?  Take the pushrods to zero lash and then lengthen them 2 and a half turns?  Of course not.  The point here is that when adjusting the pushrods you should have your focus on the lifters rather than the pushrods...and set the length of the pushrods to what the lifters require rather than whatever the pushrods instructions (people who did not make the lifters) say to do.

When using Feuling lifters they recommend something like a .093" setting.  Again, with a situation like this the pushrod instructions should at least be considered to be ignored (thrown out) and calculations should be done to set their length according to what the lifters require...if you agree with the people who manufactured and sold you the lifters.

My primary point is that when adjusting pushrods, think lifters and not pushrods...give the lifters what they want.  My secondary point is that pushrod instructions are never needed, but rather understanding of the requirements of the lifters and the TPI of the pushrods.

[fxr4mikey]

Ok, I'll try one last time.  Let's say you get a set of pushrods that are 24 TPI and the pushrod instructions say to adjust them 2 and a half turns.  But let's say you're using limited travel lifters instead of stock.  So, what are you going to do?  Take the pushrods to zero lash and then lengthen them 2 and a half turns?  Of course not.  The point here is that when adjusting the pushrods you should have your focus on the lifters rather than the pushrods...and set the length of the pushrods to what the lifters require rather than whatever the pushrods instructions (people who did not make the lifters) say to do.

When using Feuling lifters they recommend something like a .093" setting.  Again, with a situation like this the pushrod instructions should at least be considered to be ignored (thrown out) and calculations should be done to set their length according to what the lifters require...if you agree with the people who manufactured and sold you the lifters.

My primary point is that when adjusting pushrods, think lifters and not pushrods...give the lifters what they want.  My secondary point is that pushrod instructions are never needed, but rather understanding of the requirements of the lifters and the TPI of the pushrods.

I agree with you Les .... in so much as this

it is the end result that the lifter be in the pre-set depth of travel that you want for that specifc lifter

however, in order to get there, you adjust the push rod to set the lifter .... there is no way to adjust the 'lifter'   you MUST adjust the 'PUSH ROD' in order to acheive the desired setting of the lifter .....

it's really just a semantics thing that we are banting about since we do agree that what is desired by adjusting the push rods is the proper amount of pre-load on the lifter


and, if you got instructions with you lifters, and with your push rods, MOST of the time, the push rod instructions will tell you to adjust the push rods according to the specifications in the instructions provided with the lifters ........

I have only installed 3 different sets of lifters, NONE of them came with ANY documentation, but I was sure that there were all STANDARD and therefore adjusted the push rods for .1 inches of travel in the lifter .... which would be, shall we say, 'standard'

[les]

Yes, it is semantics...as we all really know what we are doing.  I'm just trying to point peoples noses towards the lifters.  For example, I know someone who has a cool way of adjusting pushrods.  (I won't irritate you any further by saying adjusting lifters.  LOL!)

I takes the pushrods out to zero lash.  Then he counts the number of turns until the lifter bottoms out.  Then backs off half that many turns.  I thought this was a fool proof method because when someone brings their bike to me on a trailer because they have screwed up the pushrod adjustment I need to ask some questions to verify they have stock lifters or something else...then measure the TPI and go from there.  However, with this method no questions need to be asked.  The entire [mental] focus is on the lifter.

So, yes.  You've busted me that it is semantics and also unconventional to refer to the process as adjusting the lifters.  But in doing so them maybe some guys less experienced will "self determine" if the want to adjust to .093", .100", or even I've seen .125"...and most importantly they have their own personal reason for doing so.  Namely, they are thinking "lifter".

Thanks for allowing me the somewhat essoteric discussion.

[fxr4mikey]

Yes, it is semantics...as we all really know what we are doing.  I'm just trying to point peoples noses towards the lifters.  For example, I know someone who has a cool way of adjusting pushrods.  (I won't irritate you any further by saying adjusting lifters.  LOL!)

no man, I'm not irritated, really, I'm  with you !!!

I takes the pushrods out to zero lash.  Then he counts the number of turns until the lifter bottoms out.  Then backs off half that many turns.  I thought this was a fool proof method because when someone brings their bike to me on a trailer because they have screwed up the pushrod adjustment I need to ask some questions to verify they have stock lifters or something else...then measure the TPI and go from there.  However, with this method no questions need to be asked.  The entire [mental] focus is on the lifter.

WOW, now that right there is a REALLY KEWL way to do it !
Thanks for sharing that with us !!

So, yes.  You've busted me that it is semantics and also unconventional to refer to the process as adjusting the lifters.  But in doing so them maybe some guys less experienced will "self determine" if the want to adjust to .093", .100", or even I've seen .125"...and most importantly they have their own personal reason for doing so.  Namely, they are thinking "lifter".

Yur right man !

Thanks for allowing me the somewhat essoteric discussion.

No Thanks required man, it's good for us to 'share' our thoughts and information .... I really like the tip that you shared, and if we had not had this conversation I might not know this now.....

THANK YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[fxr4mikey]

Hey Les

whut is your preference for adjusting the lifter travel ....  ?

do you set the push rods for .1 inch ?  or something more, or less ?

currently I have mine set at .100 .......... tonight I'm going to change them to .125 .......... I am not comfortable at the thought of going to .150   that just seems to close to the edge for me .... I can't stand the thought of bending a valve just because I set my push rods to high ......

[les]

"Today" I'm absolutly firm on setting them at .100".  Now, if your experiment of setting them at .125" yeilds some good results that "firm" position of mine just might change.  There seems to be a couple of camps out there.  Some say .100" and others .125".  In fact, the people I've debated with that set to .125" are of the opinion that this is the only way they should be set.  It just makes more sense to me to set it right in the middle of the avaliable travel (.100").  In other words, if I were designing a lifter with progressive spring tension then I would think the half way spot is where I'd design the lifter to work best.

[fxr4mikey]

yep, I can get on the waggon at 'right in the middle'

here's why I'm thinking of changing mine to .125

I put in a w6 cam, which has very steep ramps comparatively speaking .....

I hear what I believe to be some excessive valve noise, mostly on the front cylinder ...

I'm concluding that being in the middle, and steep ramps, at certain RPMs the push rod doesn't stay fully in contact with the cam shaft ... therefore it gets jammed back up into the rocker arm seat the next time the cam lobe comes around ... if I'm right about that, then being just a bit taller, it will have less of a chance of falling off the back of the lobe as the cam rotates through and the valve spring pushes it down.

Couple that with I have SE heads, and SE valve springs setup, which have a higher seat pressure than the stock valve spring pressures.  So I'm guessing that this just helps to push the rod down even faster as the steep ramp passes under the rod .....

heck, I don't know .......... I did stay at a Holiday Inn one time ...............   

[Buddy WMC]

Been doing this along time, but had a problem with my rebuilt engine on initial start up awhile ago. If all of this makes sense, then why with my VT 5015 cam and VT lifters am I only 1.3 turns on the SE pushrods from 0 lash to make the engine run right? Using the HD specs @ 2.5 turns, the exhausts were hanging open. After reading the VT cam card, we caught on that the VT specs were 1.3 turns that we did not seen right away. Backed the adjustment off from 2.5 and she was good to go.

FWIW, Methinks that from this experience, one standard way is not always correct depending upon the manufacturer of the lifter and the actual pushrod TPI count. 

[les]

It is common knowledge that the Wood cams are noisy.  Please post if the .125" adjustment makes a difference.  Waiting to hear...

Buddy, I have no answer for that.  In situations like this I always say, "I'd have to see it."

[les]

Any results yet from adjusting to .125"?  Did it make improve?

[fxr4mikey]

Les .... I got lazy, and haven't done it yet .... and went and played golf today .....
The bike goes on the dyno on Friday ..... so if I'm gonna do it, I need to take care of it tomorrow .... I'll see how I feel about it in the AM ..... sometimes it's a challenge to get 'IN TO THE PROJECT' ..... once I'm 'DOING IT'  no problem, getting started takes me awhile   

[elvislee]

Les .... I got lazy, and haven't done it yet .... and went and played golf today .....
The bike goes on the dyno on Friday ..... so if I'm gonna do it, I need to take care of it tomorrow .... I'll see how I feel about it in the AM ..... sometimes it's a challenge to get 'IN TO THE PROJECT' ..... once I'm 'DOING IT'  no problem, getting started takes me awhile    

Hey Les; pay attention man....That's what happens when ya get old...    :

[les]

I'm exactly the same way.  Hard to get started on even the simple job, but once I break a sweat I sometimes end up working until 2:00 in the morning!