Shovelhead CV Jetting

[76shuvlinoff]

 Glad you found it JW.  Over the years I've two of those eyelets break right off. 

I doubt it applies here but I have seen guys cut a gasket out of a milk jug (why not use a thin rubber gasket?) and fit it around the switch over those connections. I dunno, maybe that would reduce vibration at those points. 

[dirtymike]

Most "OEM" handlebar switches and the IGN switch for the shovel head are made and were made in the Asian community. Its been that way since "AMF" 1969. Definitely not Scottish.     

[JW113]

I have no problem with anything made in Japan. The stuff works better and lasts longer than stuff made most anywhere else.

The OEM handlebar toggle switches say "Grayhill" on them. Grayhill is in Chicago, so I'm assuming HD/AMF bid them out to Grayhill. We use stuff from Grayhill at my company, good quality. Whether the HD switches were actually made in China or where ever, I have no idea. But at least it has a quality brand name on it. The aftermarket crap.... no markings what so ever, who knows who's making it.

-JW

[dirtymike]

Grayhill is a distribution company like anything else you find for a (AMF) shovelhead. The Japanese contract out to other countries like china and Taiwan. Just as we do to Mexico and the "stan"s" in the Mediterranean. For the Japanese Taiwan is the easiest because of the trade agreement with the US. Lifes a bitch when you cant find good Scottish craftsmanship.       

[Trouble]

Good find. Now, does it run better with the enriched jetting you changed to or do you still need to hash that out? WOT?

[dirtymike]

WOT is the only why to get power out of a shovelhead. Best you can do is 120. Been wrenching on these antiquated machines for a long time. Aftermarket is all you got, sorry.

[JW113]

Trouble: "Now, does it run better with the enriched jetting you changed to or do you still need to hash that out? WOT?"

Here is what I am with that. With the jetting in there now (48 pilot/180 main), it runs great. If you give it WOT, it would not pull all that great. If you backed it off just a little from WOT, it would pull a little harder.

I have Cycle Shack dual shorties, which I removed the stock baffles. I was thinking this is adding to the problem. The baffles had 24 1/4" dia holes drilled near the back near the outlet. I took a hacksaw and dremel with cut of wheel, and opened up three big square "holes" in each baffle, cutting between the drilled holes. This opened it up quite a bit, but still had that deflector up front to make the exhaust go around the bafflle tube, then back into the (now) big square holes and out. I then put them back in the pipes.

This made a difference with the "back off from WOT" issue, it doesn't do that now. That said, if you give it WOT, it still does not pull that hard. In fact, not a whole lot more than at 1/2 throttle. A little, but not a lot. Keep in mind that I am not winding the thing out to redline, maybe up to 4500rpm.

I am pretty convinced at this point that there is nothing wrong, other than the carburetor can supply at least twice the CFMs of what the engine can pull through it. i.e., the carb is sized too big for the motor that it's on. The bike had no problem at all with power in the low end, and from a dead start will zip right up to 75mph or more. But at a steady 75 in 4th, if you give it WOT, it will not pick up speed all that fast. In 4th, 75 is right at 3000rpm. Dropping to 3rd it will pick up speed better.

Now that I've gotten the electrical gremlin exorcised out, will schedule a session with the dyno shop, we'll see where we are.

Frankly, I'm a-thinkin that what is got is all it's got, and I just need to aclimate...

-JW

[rageglide]

Right on, glad you found the culprit.  Funny we discussed that exact problem on Sat night.  (Both JW and I have had the jumper/feed wire breakage issue on softails).

Did the new switch come with new screws and the little lock washers?  I've never had one loosen up before, no loctite.

[JW113]

Nope. Bare posts sticking out.

I reused the screws from the old switch. 6-32x1/4. I had to cut down one from my parts bin for the lost one. And yes, used blue loctite on them all. Fool me once, shame on you, MacGregor.....

-JW

[Trouble]

Thanks for sharing how you got that sorted out.
Sounds like you did the right thing opening up the baffles. And yes, you describe what sounds like a typical stock-ish shovel just being a tad tempermental. Enjoy it as you have discovered.

[Hogman]

Trouble: "Now, does it run better with the enriched jetting you changed to or do you still need to hash that out? WOT?"

Here is what I am with that. With the jetting in there now (48 pilot/180 main), it runs great. If you give it WOT, it would not pull all that great. If you backed it off just a little from WOT, it would pull a little harder.

I have Cycle Shack dual shorties, which I removed the stock baffles. I was thinking this is adding to the problem. The baffles had 24 1/4" dia holes drilled near the back near the outlet. I took a hacksaw and dremel with cut of wheel, and opened up three big square "holes" in each baffle, cutting between the drilled holes. This opened it up quite a bit, but still had that deflector up front to make the exhaust go around the bafflle tube, then back into the (now) big square holes and out. I then put them back in the pipes.

This made a difference with the "back off from WOT" issue, it doesn't do that now. That said, if you give it WOT, it still does not pull that hard. In fact, not a whole lot more than at 1/2 throttle. A little, but not a lot. Keep in mind that I am not winding the thing out to redline, maybe up to 4500rpm.

I am pretty convinced at this point that there is nothing wrong, other than the carburetor can supply at least twice the CFMs of what the engine can pull through it. i.e., the carb is sized too big for the motor that it's on. The bike had no problem at all with power in the low end, and from a dead start will zip right up to 75mph or more. But at a steady 75 in 4th, if you give it WOT, it will not pick up speed all that fast. In 4th, 75 is right at 3000rpm. Dropping to 3rd it will pick up speed better.

Now that I've gotten the electrical gremlin exorcised out, will schedule a session with the dyno shop, we'll see where we are.

Frankly, I'm a-thinkin that what is got is all it's got, and I just need to aclimate...

-JW

Sorry to Dig up this Older Post, BUTT, I was Looking for Something in particular, & Found This.
JW, Did You Ever Do the Dyno Session, & IF so, Did You Post it Here, er, well, over on the Dyno Stuff? (I Looked QUITE a Ways Back, & Couldn't Find it, UNLESS you MAYBE had Someone Else Post it, Then I Just Wasted my Time Looking for it..... [/size][/color])[/size][size=78%]  [/size][/size]IF You Didn't do the Dyno, Shall I ASS U ME You Solved All the Issues With the New Switch etc.? Or???
THANKS in Advance for any Reply Sir.




ME

[JW113]

Have not. Not yet, anyway. Without going into a rant, it's getting harder and harder to find anybody here in the south bay area who will do dyno tuning. CARB has put the hammer down pretty hard. My local indie machine shop dude says he will, but I'd need to drop the bike off for who knows how long, and he'd do it "in between making real money". While I appreciate the offer, I kind of want to be there and watch the bolts and parts fall off with my own eyes. LOL


So stay tuned, I'm trying to synchronize a day off and an appointment with him. Else, ride up to Hayward and see if he who shall remain nameless will do it.

Oh, and indeed, the electrial problem is fixed, no issues at all. In fact, after pulling a Crane Hi4 out and putting points back in, it's been solid reliable.

-JW

[turboprop]

Have not. Not yet, anyway. Without going into a rant, it's getting harder and harder to find anybody here in the south bay area who will do dyno tuning. CARB has put the hammer down pretty hard. My local indie machine shop dude says he will, but I'd need to drop the bike off for who knows how long, and he'd do it "in between making real money". While I appreciate the offer, I kind of want to be there and watch the bolts and parts fall off with my own eyes. LOL


So stay tuned, I'm trying to synchronize a day off and an appointment with him. Else, ride up to Hayward and see if he who shall remain nameless will do it.

Oh, and indeed, the electrial problem is fixed, no issues at all. In fact, after pulling a Crane Hi4 out and putting points back in, it's been solid reliable.

-JW

If all you are after is a proper tune and dont care about seeing a number you should consider mounting an AFR gauge on your bike. After a few weeks of riding and swapping jets, the tune will be pretty much spot on for how and where you ride. Would probably even cost less in the long run.

[dirtymike]

I have 48/190 for the jets with a N86 needle from CVP. I had to time the accelerator pump so the fuel spray didn't hit the throttle plate. Dirtry

[Hogman]

Have not. Not yet, anyway. Without going into a rant, it's getting harder and harder to find anybody here in the south bay area who will do dyno tuning. CARB has put the hammer down pretty hard. I've Heard a Little about That. A Buddy Lives down in, Damn, I Can't Remember the Name of His City Now! Jeeez man, Anyways, He Calls me up here Quite a Bit, and That Has Come Up a Few Times. He has what he Thinks is a HOT-ROD EVO Bagger. I KNOW he Spent a Ton of $$$$ on the Engine, But I Don't Think it's ALL that & More..... (Just MY Opinion from What HE Tells me!) LOL
My local indie machine shop dude says he will, but I'd need to drop the bike off for who knows how long, and he'd do it "in between making real money". While I appreciate the offer, I kind of want to be there and watch the bolts and parts fall off with my own eyes. LOL [/size][/color] I'm With Ya There JW, 10000%!   LOLOL


So stay tuned, I'm trying to synchronize a day off and an appointment with him. Else, ride up to Hayward and see if he who shall remain nameless will do it.   [/size][/color]I WILL Sir, NOT a Problem my Friend, NOT a Problem at All!

Oh, and indeed, the electrial problem is fixed, no issues at all. In fact, after pulling a Crane Hi4 out and putting points back in, it's been solid reliable.
[/size][/color]GREAT, Glad To Hear That!
[/size][/color]Many THANKS For this Update/Reply too!
[/size][/color]
[/size][/color]ME

-JW

[JW113]

OK Turbo, since it is getting to be such a PITA to get a dyno tune done out this way anymore, I'll bite. What AFR gauge do you recommend? I don't suppose they have anything that can just be shoved up the exhaust pipe without having to hack up the pipe? If I do go this route, would be nice to be able to use it on more than one bike.

-JW

[turboprop]

OK Turbo, since it is getting to be such a PITA to get a dyno tune done out this way anymore, I'll bite. What AFR gauge do you recommend? I don't suppose they have anything that can just be shoved up the exhaust pipe without having to hack up the pipe? If I do go this route, would be nice to be able to use it on more than one bike.

-JW

I have used a bunch of different AFR gauges. Heck, my red bike is on the RB Racing website in thier AFR section. The one I am currently running and like the most is my Wego III. Its not really made in the shape of a gauge, but more like an evo ignition module. I have it attached to the handle bar clamp with velcro. It not only displays in real time but logs RPM and AFR.

I welded a bung into my pipes, and most all of my buddies pipes as well. I am sure something could be shoved up the pipe but i think it would require some sort of air pump.

I have the Wego hard wired into the bike. Cant really imagine not having it there. I am at the point now where I change a jet or pin position about every other week, which is way down from several times a day. Engine runs amazing, gas mileage is very good.

[JW113]

So I poked around a little. Tell me if I got this straight.

The "gauge" portion is simply a volt meter. Unless you want a "smart gauge" like the one you mentioned, with all sorts of data logging capabiltiy, or other features besides just reading the sensor.

The magic is all in the sensor. Seems most all of the setups I saw are using a Bosch sensor of one type or another. Narrow band, wide band, 12mm, 18mm, etc.

Do I got that right so far?

So if I wanted to play around with one of these setups, and just wanted the A/F version of a timing light and nothing else, do I just get simple A/F gauge, a Bosch narrow band sensor, and go with it?

thanks,
JW

[turboprop]

So I poked around a little. Tell me if I got this straight.

The "gauge" portion is simply a volt meter. Unless you want a "smart gauge" like the one you mentioned, with all sorts of data logging capabiltiy, or other features besides just reading the sensor.

The magic is all in the sensor. Seems most all of the setups I saw are using a Bosch sensor of one type or another. Narrow band, wide band, 12mm, 18mm, etc.

Do I got that right so far?

So if I wanted to play around with one of these setups, and just wanted the A/F version of a timing light and nothing else, do I just get simple A/F gauge, a Bosch narrow band sensor, and go with it?

thanks,
JW

I think you would do better with a system that utilizes a wide band sensor.

[JW113]

What is the advantage of one over the other?

-JW

[turboprop]

What is the advantage of one over the other?

-JW

Look the twin cam sections. This has been beaten to death on this and every other harley site.

[Burnout]

There is no advantage from one to the other they do not do the same function.

A narrow band sensor is a switching type for unbalanced computer control, it is made for rapid response switching output from rich to lean. It does not have a linear output that matches O2 levels.

A wide band sensor needs a controller and outputs a variable signal from 1-4 volts that is directly comparable to the O2 level it is exposed to.

And remember an O2 sensor checks O2 levels, AFR readings are INTERPOLATED from the O2 content.
Thus it is possible for an overfueled motor to give a high AFR indication.
The higher O2 content due to a rich misfire will be interpolated as a lean AFR.

[JW113]

This is a followup to this thread. Regarding the "doesn't have much pull past 1/2 throttle" problem.

Problem solved. Root cause: too much cam. I had been running a Crane 288-2B, came recommened from the shovelhead.us guys, and with a casual glance at the timing specs, not exactly a hot rod cam. But the more I researched, indeed for a stock Shovelhead's low compression and cavernous intake ports, yes, too much cam. I put the stock "H" cam it it. And amazingly, it runs 200% better. Crisp throttle response throughout the RPM range, and yes, even takes throttle up to WOT now.

-JW

[koko3052]