starter problem

[northbrun]

my nephew has been having trouble with his starter. A Spike starter on his chopper on a 100" rev-tec motor. The solenoid engages with a good clunk, but the starter doesn't turn, as if the contacts are bad. we jumped the solenoid with a wire and the bike starts right up. we replaced the contacts with no fix. it'll start 6 or 7 times then nothing. If we hit the starter post with a jumper wire then it will start another 6 or 7 times until we have to jump it again..    any suggestions??

[bhubb7]

Have the battery load tested. if amps are low the voltage look good but amps could be low.

[northbrun]

nope... battery is good.. i'm stumped.

[hdbikedoc]

Disconnect battery and remove solenoid cover and manually push the plunger in and check that the contacts are hitting both terminals square and at the same height sometimes have to hold the terminals ,even use some washers to shim out well tightening (then remove ) to make sure they are both the same the more time you spend making them perfic the better and longer they will work

[Panzer]

Just curious, how do you know the battery is good?
What test were preformed?
Still sounds like the battery to me.
Just asking!

Panzer

[texaskatfish]

North please pardon me "sistering on" to your thread............

I just had to get a neighborly "push start" last night to get home dangit.

At this point I have ZERO data / symptoms to report - but I need to ask as I've dug out my Pop's old 'Amprobe' meter. It's been half past forever since I've used one.

Am I checking 'DC' voltage on Gracie's battery? And what is the desired result - 14 volts?

Any and all procedural / test info greatly appreciated...........

[Phu Cat]

14 volts at the battery does not necessarily translate to 14 volts at the starter, especially under load.

Is there any corrosion on the battery cables under the insulation where the lug attaches to the cable?  Are the cables big to carry that much current consistently?  Could the cable be cracked somewhere under the insulation?  Are the strands of wire within the cable large or small?  Smaller strands within the same size cable will carry more current than large strands.

PC

[Garry in AZ]

Katfish, yes you need the DC setting on the meter. With the bike not running the battery should be 12.6V or higher. With it running at 2000 rpm it should be over 14 volts. These numbers will tell you if your charging system is working, but not much about the battery condition. To do that you need to load test the battery. Most auto parts stores will do it for you for free, or you can buy a load tester big enough for a bike battery from Sears for about 80 bucks.
If you measure the voltages, and they seem OK, but you still have a no-start, check the obvious stuff like connections first. Check both ends of both cables, not just at the battery. If they are all tight and clean, try to jump start the bike with another battery. (car off, just connect the cables) If the bike starts right up, chances are good your battery is done for.  One of the characteristics of an AGM battery (not sure what you have) is a battery failure with very little warning. They tend to just quit, rather than show signs of getting weak. But, they last longer overall, and IMO are still the best type to use as a replacement.

Hope this helps a bit, good luck, and let us know what happens.

Garry

[texaskatfish]

Northbrun - once again sorry to "jump in" the middle of your initial post - I just figured we could all do starter diagnostics together(?)

Garry and PC THNX Gents! At this stage I'm just now getting started - gonna get out in the garage in between emails and calls today (LOVE working at home!!)

I have not yet yanked off the tour pak and seats - thats next

A bit frustrating as I just bought this battery roughly 2 months ago (I know zero guarantees there). I've not been happy with this one since I bought it - my indy gets em from 'Drag Specialties' - this one has the "hollowed out" battery posts (HATE em) - and dumaxx me didn't notice until I was cranking down on the bolt and about halfway 'crushed' the post - I backed it off and carefully re-shaped the dang thing and snugged it up the best I could without destroying it any further - SO - this positive post and connection very well may be my current problem. We'll see!

[northbrun]

catfish.. no prob... panzer had the battery load tested.  the strange thing is.. when this problem happens, all it takes is to "excite" the starter with a quick jump from the battery to the starter pole on the starter, not into the solenoid..

[texaskatfish]

North roger that............hope you got it solved!

OK - before I share more I KNOW that 'going in' to any diagnostic situation ESPECIALLY electrical - falling into the 'trap' of having pre-conceived ideas of what may be wrong can really lead one down many wrong pathways!

I'm posting a photo of this Amprobe below - heck I even read the freakin directions and I cannot tell what reading I'm seeing (good damn thing I aint a bike tech for a living eh?)

Before the pic I can share that I did discover-my negative lead to the battery wasn't snug - snugged that up and no change so far. I get a really STRONG "umph" as if there is plenty of battery power and she just won't quite 'roll over' and bust off. Now this is a fairly mild mid range cam and over the years I've had the occasional stubborn starting when hot - but now motor is cold. Bear in mind this starter IS original and Gracie has almost 104,000 on her clock. I did notice the negative post (I think) on the starter heated up immediately from only trying the starter button once. NO - I have not 'dug in' and checked every connection - but these are Yooper cables and for now I'm assuming 'dry & clean & tight' connections. I find it really hard to resist the notion that maybe this is just a tired solenoid, starter, or both. Meter photo is below (hot lead on battery and ground lead on hard bag crash bar):

[Garry in AZ]

Katfish, either the meter has a problem, or something is very strange. The photo is a bit hard to read for these old eyes, but it looks like you have the meter set to the 50V scale, which is correct, but when I read the meter, it's showing 40 volts! I think maybe the meter is off... If you have access to a different meter, could you please try it and see what happens?

Garry

[texaskatfish]

Garry your eyes are AOK - when I had the "10V choice" selected the meter pegged. So as per the ancient instruction booklet I ramped up one click to the 50 range.(still could not understand the reading - I'm thinkin that meter is so old it's not 'right')

I did discover that jumping bike off our car works (car NOT running of course) - since I had a ride home lined up and my trusty 'indy' is only 3 miles away I gave in and put her in the shop. Tech found only 10.4 volts on battery (bike not runnin) - so the 1st thought is a charging system issue. He'll ring me up tomorrow when he has a full charge on the battery and can diagnose with her running.

I'd dearly love to wrench every damn thing on this bike but I'm not willing to sacrifice my beloved every day rider to my learning curve and lack of tools. I'm just damned happy to have a trustworthy shop so close to home!

THANKS to yall for your input and we'll learn some more tomorrow - I'm praying we can get Gracie up to snuff before end of business on Friday as BACA has multiple duties this weekend in both Corpus and San Antonio. (I'll 'cage it' if I have to - cannot let our kids down!)

[Garry in AZ]

Okay Katfish, cool beans! Time to retire that meter. You can buy a decent digital multimeter for under 50 bucks, or a real fancy one for 150.

Best of luck with Gracie, and the BACA activities!

Garry

[HotRock]

Katfish.....There is no negative post on the starter.   The negative post on the battery is connected to a good ground point somewhere, maybe the chassis.  And then the starter is bolted to the engine.  The engine must have a good grounded connection to the chassis to complete the negative circuit.   The post on the battery goes thorugh the cable to the solenoid where it makes contact with the other side going into the starter motor.   If you have a post/connection on the starter that gets hot very quickly......then it is entirely possible that the connection has a high resistance contact which will in turn drop your voltage and produce a lot of heat.   The connection may be tight and still not have a good electrical connection.   A good way to check the voltage is with your voltmeter on the positive side of the battery when you hit the start button.  Battery 12 volts +, then to the  battery terminal, then check the voltage on the cable, then the lug on the solenoid, and then the cable going into the starter motor.    Somewhere along the way you will probably find the voltage will drop drastically, maybe even down to 6 volts or below.  At the point the volts drop will most likely be your bad connection.   If the starter is faulty and drawing excessive current it can possibly suck a good battery voltage down also, but that is not likely since you say you can jump to the motor and it spins.   Double check the connection that is getting HOT first.  Clean off any crud with sandpaper or something equivalent.   

[texaskatfish]

HotRock all great info sir and I do appreciate it!

And when I posted 'ground lead' I mainly meant the 'black lead' to the starter (was just posting way too fast in the moment - part of the territory here in the freight biz)

I can envision performing many / all of those steps above at a quieter moment when Gracie is already running aok - to play 'catch up' so to speak on prevention of future mishaps.

[truck]

10.4 volts = bad cell in the battery. You need a new battery, I think.

[texaskatfish]

Truck in a way I hope you are correct!

Considering the very SHORT time since I bought this one - I bet I'll get a decent 'pro-rating' if that's what it turns out to be.

[texaskatfish]

Welp 'no joy in Mudville' just yet.

Indy had a chance to do diagnostic with Gracie running yesterday and has found weak output in charging system (about half what it should be). He hopes to be able to disassemble some today or tomorrow and locate the culprit. THANKS again for all replies and support folks!

[texaskatfish]

Well we all know you 'smell the world around you' whenever we're in the wind.

On my way to the indy Wed afternoon I swore I caught a whiff of 'something electrical' - sure enough the stator had gone bad. Aftermarket rotor was still in good shape and voltage regulator still functioning well if a wee bit on the low side of 'average'(with both spotlights and brake light engaged - still acceptable) - therefore I'll pick up a voltage regulator to have on hand the next paycheck that will allow it.

As much as I'd love to fix any and every damn thing - I cannot fault the indy's tab of 2 shop hours + parts. And now Gracie's BACK and I can catch my BACA Brothers & Sisters in Corpus Christi for tomorrow morning's adoption - then again for a TRIPLE adoption in San Antonio Sunday.

YeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeHAW!

[Garry in AZ]

Hey Katfish,
Good to hear Gracie's feeling better! 

Ride safe, and often.

Garry