leineweber l3s cam

[monty101]

I can't understand why people say these cams pull hard. It can't pull as hard as my andrews b cam because my b cam has only 52 degrees of overlap and the l3s has 56 degress.  The duration that is compared to other cams is 272 for intake and 275 for exh. this means the power curve is at the higher rpms like a andrews c cam. I've already got one of them. I don't use it because i never run at those high rpms. the b cam duration is 256 and the power curve where it makes the most power is 3200-5200.  I guess I'll call Leineweber back and talk to them. It has 56 degrees of overlap and the centerline is 103 degrees.

www.nightrider.com indicates;
Camshaft overlap duration less than 30 degrees tends to produce good low end power. Lobe Separation Angles (LSA) of 100-103 degrees tend to produce power at the low end."


below is the stats on the dme530: http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/camshaft.html. It does appear to be a strong low and midrange cam while the L3s is a strong high range cam.

Camshaft Calculations - Lobe Center / Duration

Your dme500 has an Overlap of 38.00 degrees and has in Intake Duration of 248.00 degrees. The Exhaust Duration is 248.00 degrees. The Inlet Cam has an Installed Centerline of 98.00 degrees ATDC. The exhaust cam has an Installed Centerline of 112.00 degrees BTDC.

[baldoldfxr]

The characteristics of any cam will depend on what motor its in Size,comp ratio etc etc . everthing works together or if you get it totaly wrong doesn't.

[76shuvlinoff]

I contacted them about a cam for my loaded down two up 9.3:1 93"er. Installed is an S&S561 and  have a B on the shelf but I wanted to see what they'd offer and L3S is what they came back with.   Now I don't know if I want to bother with it or not.

[monty101]

well I almost bought a l3s and that would have been a mistake for what I need it for in mho. I think the dme530 or dme500 will give me the power I need. I guess when i saw on the leineweber site that the duration was 241 I figured it was a bottom end cam. Its a midrange and top end cam and may not better than the b cam I'm running now.

he's showing the duration is 241@.053 and I though that was comparable to the b rating of 256 duration. I finally ran the numbers and saw the duration was over 270 and that's what he shows for the .020 stat. I do recall reading a thread a while back that a dude pulled the leineweber cam because it's power range was too high for what he needed. I'm still kinda curious as to why the overlap is only 56 when the duration is over 270. typically you see the overlap over 70 when the duration is that high. Oh well, its not for me but it would be a good cam if I needed one for a 4 speed. the 6 speed is so high geared that it needs more power at low rpms or it will lug in 6th. It runs great at 95 or 100 mph with the b cam because it has to have the rpms that high to get into the power range and I don't want to run that fast.

[76shuvlinoff]

 I specifically asked about a heavy bike and gave them my stats. the answer was L3S.   Leineweber seems to have an excellent reputation and in all fairness I did not call and speak personally with the man. As mentioned above there are many factors influencing cam choice and I'm not qualified to second guess anyone on it.

Good luck

[monty101]

well from what I can tell in his stable of cams for shovelheads the L3s is the closest thing he has that could provide low end power. I don't second guess stuff either and I look to other sources to base my opinions such as www.nightrider.com .

As stated I have got a Andrews C cam and it has high duration specs as does the L3S and the C Cam is a high rpm cam. Andrews claims it is the best shovelhead cam too. I've run the C cam and it will definitely haul ass if you are drag racing.  I'm sure the Leineweber is a great cam but I just don't think its one that will do what I need it to do. You always run a risk asking the salesman for a recommendation as to what he can sell you that will be what you want. You will run the risk he may try to sell you a pink car if you tell him you want a red car. that's why I look at nightrider.  It tells me what determines if a cam is what I want. there I'm through.....I'm calling him monday and talk to him some more. 

I guess the dme500 will be the cam I get.....this 6 speed 6th gear makes such a dramatic difference that it looks like even with a 96 torquemonster the power range for the cam needs to be targeted at the 2500-5000 rpm range. I rode it today and the Andrews B cam will pull it in 6th but I think it will pull it a lot better if I can get the power range down about 500-700 rpms. It will even pull in 6th at 60 mph. The B cam works great in my 4 spd 89 inch shovel. It runs about 3300 rpms when you are running 85. that is perfect for the B cam. It'll rip right on up to 95 if you just barely crack the throttle. I'm trying to get that out of the 6 spd but I want it to do that at 300 or so less rpms. It'll do it now but it just won't accellerate up 95 as quickly. before I put the 49t sprocket on it it would lug down in 6th at 85. I had a 46t sprocket on it then and a final drive ratio of 2.5.  It wanted to run 95 in 6th. I got the final drive ratio up to 2.66 now which is close to stock 2.7 and it appears the difference is all related to the cam overlap. evos that run 6 gears have a low overlap cam and that's what gives them the power they use to run a 6th gear and the high 2.7 final drive ratio. so, based on everything I know I think I need the right cam to get this scooter to perform right.

[76shuvlinoff]

Sounds like you definitely have this better thought out than my trial and error method.....

[nomadbkr]

.. here's a well written very informative article about cams that has good info related to shovel cams and the how and why they differ from others ..
.. there are several pages .. this link will bring you to the 1st .. you'll want to keep clicking "next" at the bottom to get to it all ..
.. I found it to be definately worth the read ..
.. starts out being quite general, but quickly relates to Harley's and Shovel's in particular ..

( this is a correction to the link I previously posted .. this is the 1st page which will lead to the rest .. my previous post went to page 5 .. sorry 'bout that)

.. the correct link is ....

http://www.hotbikeweb.com/tech/0711_hbkp_tech_tips_camshafts/index.html

nomad

[shovelbill]

there are so many variables in choosing the right cam for a particular application.. what gear ratio are you running...2.94 or the 3.24? have you considered advancing the cam timing 4*, that'll usually drop the powerband around 300 rpms. longer duration usually works better in larger motors. why don't you look at the Woods W-6, should do what you want. all the cam in the world won't do anything if you don't have the heads to support it and the compression ratio matched to the cam................

[otis]

You got it all wrong.  Andrews lists their specs at 0.053" lift.  Leineweber lists their specs at 0.020" lift.  They do also list the 0.053" spec, which is 241 on the L3S.  Their ramps are ALOT steeper than the Andrews. 

Trust me, the L3S will be a real stumpuller and have alot more power than on the bottom end.  The Andrews A or B have NO chance in comparison.  I'm not guessing here...I've run the A, B and L31...The L31 performs the best....BY FAR!  The L3S is about the same.

Good luck,
Pat

[monty101]

I'm going to call them Otis. I've read so many praises of them that I have to give Leineweber the benefit of the doubt.  I just don't understand how that cam with those specs can have that duration. Maybe the LSA is a factor. I don't understand and they cost enough that I want to do my homework before I commit.  Like I said I have a C cam already.  To double check the specs, I punched the open/close specs for Andrews b cam and it cam out 256 and l31 came out 277, It appears Leineweber has flip flopped the .053 and 020 duration headings on his website.
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/camshaft.html
Then I looked at the specs and they look like the Andrews C cam specs. Its duration is 272. Somethings appears wrong with the specs on that Leineweber spec page on his website.

I'm going to call woods too, that w6 cam looks about right for me too.

[monty101]

Otis I guess I understand it's the steep ramps causing the weird stats. That should tell the tale. If you you start measuring the valve opening when its .02 open instead of .053 open because the ramps are steeper then I see how the duration can be longer.  That makes sense. That calc done on the  http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/camshaft.html website does not use anything but valve closing and opening to determine overlap.  I guess since Leineweber does reflect the 053 stats for duration then they had to calc it off the open and closing at .053 lift of the valve and since those are numbers that when punched into the calc produce the 241 duration it should show a overlap in the range of 30-40 degress. I'll call them and find out what the overlap is and what open and close numbers they used to calc it at .053.  Overlap is what determines the bottom end power from what I understand. I guess these cams with the steep ramps are kinda hard on the rollers. I also wonder about miles per gallon if the intake valve is open longer. what kinda gas mileage does you scooter get Otis.

[otis]

I get between 40 and 43 mpg depending on time of the year. 

Call Leineweber; they will send you all the specs based on 0.053" lift and the accelerator program will work normal.  My software shows 10 more HP and TQ between 2500 and 5000 rpm than the Andrews B grind.  At 5K they are approx the same....

Good Luck...
Pat

[v10ole]

Not to change the subject here but monty101 what gearing do you have in that scooter that turns 3200 at 85 wow I run a rivera primo speed with stock rear belt pully 98 inch with a c grind and shes turning 3500 at 75 and she goes like hell from about 1800 all the way to the rev limiter set at 6500 and the mileage with the CV worked by Ron Trock is 43 mpg so just wondering what gearing you got. Thanks Ole

[monty101]

I run a 25t front spocket, 36t clutch basket, 23t tranny and 49t rear sprocket. big thing is i run a 6 speed ultima tranny that has a overdrive (.85) 6th gear ratio. I was running a 46t sprocket and i just put a 49t on and I have 100 miles on it so far.  I can run her like she is but I just think it needs more power around 85-95,Its a 96 incher with torquemonster flywheels. I guess I'm spoiled because I'm used to my other scooter that is a 89 inch torquemonster, 4 spd. with a b cam too. It's got a 24t tranny sprocket and a 46t rear sprocket. Its got a 2.95 final drive ratio and runs like a bear between 80 and 90 at about 3200 rpms.  On the other bike the 6th gear seems to create a flat spot between 85 and 95. Kinda weird if you start up a hell it seems to have a hard time maintaining the speed and the 4 spd scooter doesn't have that problem. I guess I could put the 46t rear sprocket back on it and just use 5th gear but I do know the final drive ratio is 2.6 which is close to stock evos but they have cams in their 6 speeds that have overlap more in line with a 240 duration cam. I believe every 10 degrees of duration is equivalent to about 500 rpms in the power range. so, I figure a cam will put everything right. I may be wrong it may just need a 51t sprocket

[76shuvlinoff]

Not to change the subject again (I'm learning a bunch here) V10ole what size cv are you running?  I have a 1996 cv (40mm?) on my 93" heavy bike. No tach. My gearing is 24 23 49  5 inna 4 tranny and it's a slow crawl from 80 up, pretty much topped out at 105.  I'm not sweatin it much just looking for a point of reference.

You guys must live where the land is flat, there just no room (or tolerance) around here to play at those speeds for very long.

[monty101]

I'm running a s&s e carb. It is flat here. I live in Texas.

[monty101]

wow. I called leineweber today and he gave me the open close numbers at .053. The overlap on the L3S is only 28. No wonder its a stump puller. He said the power range is 1800 to 4900 or 5000. He said the ramps are steeper than a andrews b cam but probably not as steep as a woods cams that have a lot higher lift. He said Leineweber does make some race cams that are hard on the valve train but this one is a street cam and shouldn't be hard on the rollers and valves. guess i will find out because  I ordered one today.

[v10ole]

Ya I live in northern minnesota and next to north dakota, believe me its so freaking flat you can see as far as your eyes will allow. In my older years I have slowed down a bit but you can run hard for alot of miles the main reason I went with the 6 speed is I wanted to be able to run with the twinkie riders and not have the old girls toung hanging out when I did not sure on the cv size it was a stocker off an 06 and my buddy Ron reworked it so not sure he wont give up his secrets and even files off the jets so not sure what they are the carb after he got through with it was a bolt on and ride deal. I did have to put a .22 washer on the needle but that was it. The bottom end is Truett and Osborn 98 inch 10-5-1 compression andrews C grind cam daytona twin tech ing. 2 inch drags with chrome works baffles cut in half. I did run those ss carbs for a long time but never could get it just right but man let me tell you that cv is the best dam carb I have had on that shovel and believe me I have tried them all over the years great power and best of all 43 miles per gallon with a 98 inch turning 3500 rpms cant complain at all.........Ole

[monty101]

Yeah my 96 incher gets 43 too. My 89 incher gets 53. Its the same scooter except it has a 4 speed and 7 less cubic inches. both run ss e carbs. I've got a cv off a 1200 sportster that i have though about sending out and having it reworked. i couldn't get it to work with the stock needless in it. I don't know what was wrong with it. It did come on the sportster and did work at one time. I gave up and had to sell the sportster so i put a ss e carb on it to get rid of it.

I love those shovels I remember a couple years ago I was going out into west texas to "cruise nite" in vernon texas. they shut the town down and 1500 hotrods cruise up and down the main drag til 12 each nite and the people set outside the businesses in downtown under awnings eating barbq and drinking beer. then they have a drag race at the race track in wfalls and a car show the next day that is always bad assed . anyway, two of those bad assed honda goldwings passed me like i was setting still. I was running 75. then a late model harley  passed me and I could tell he was really pushing that evo to its limits to keep up with those gold wings. My old 1970 89 inch shovel is a rigid fat bob 7 inch stretch in front legs and 10 over tubes. I just cracked the throttle a little and ran her up to 95 and caught up with the lead honda and eased her down to 90 an took the lead. we ran along that way about 20 miles and I had to turn off to picl up some beer . Never forget the look on the guys face that was riding the harley as I passed him. that shovel wasn't even breathing hard. Its top end with that b cam is about 130  plus those heavy truett osborn torquemonster flywheels make it run like a harley not a sportster. I don't figure those goldwing guys even knew what passed them.  I have to admit those goldwings weren't breathing hard either. when I first got that shovel I would have cars honk at me to speed up. those scooters were built in the day the speed limit was 55. sad thing is a shovel isn't worth much anymore. I spent 10k building my 96 incher and I did all the work including the motor and seat and frame myself. Nobody builds their bike today. back in the 70's everybody did. go figure......

[v10ole]

Ya gotta love these old girls mine started out life as an 83 low rider FXSB dual belt that I bought new off the floor but has been change and reworked several times over the years. I remember when the evos first came out and had to have one because of all the hype they were given but it didnt take long to realize the difference when it left me stranded on the raod a long ways from home if I would have been on the shovel I would have been able to fix her right there it did make a little more power than the shovel but not enough to make me keep it and sold it soon after. Then came along the twin cam A and they had there problems also then came the twin cam B that was updated to fix the problem so I had to get one and sure is was a great ride and more reliable with that EFI it was a 2002 FLSTSI and with stock pipes it just didnt sound right to me so I spent alot of ching tring different pipes and never was happy and at thet time harley had only what they called their screaming eagle map for the fule injection for if I remember right was 250.00 to install and it was so far off that it would back fire out the pipes like crazy fuel mileage was terriable and wouldnt run right. Then I came across the power commander from dynojet but they didnt have a specific map for the FLSTSI because it was different than the rest of the softails so I was screwed and had to have it dyno tuned which the power commander was adjustable and on the 3rd run it broke the cage on a rod bearing so I had to take the sob into the dealer because for me to fix it myself just the tools that I would have had to buy the expense was out to lunch. Anyway the warrenty was off because I changed that "Potty mouth" out and had to pay out of pocket so that was it sold it and never looked back. So I guess that I must love that old shovel even though she has let me down more that once at least I could wrench it myself anywhere and get it on the road again. Not to mention nothing sounds like an old shovel but I am kinda biased what the hell........Ole

[monty101]

I guess I may have  to clear up the rpm issue. at 85 my 96 incher turns about 3400 rpm in 5th gear and in 6th it turns about 2900 rpm when its running 85. My 89 incher at 85 in 4th gear turns about 3200 rpms.

[v10ole]

Ya with that gearing a C gring wouldnt work at all and not sure if a cam will cure your problem. If I were you I would play with gearing to bring them RPMS up a tick and that would give you more power down low at the same time but what the hell do I know good luck.........Ole

[monty101]

yeah, I could go to a 51 tooth and run 3100 rpm in 6th but I'm close  with a 2.6 final drive ratio now to a stock final drive ratio for 6th gear that stock evos run 2.7. big diff as stated is they have a lot less overlap than what a b cam give me. that cam isn't turning on til 3200 or so and that don't help at 2900 rpm. Its great in the 4 spd at 85 when its turning 3200 rpm. It great in 5th on the 96 incher when its turning 3400 but sucks in 6th at 2900 rpms. i figure the cam's will make every thing fine. Heck I may be able to put the 46t sprocket back on. then 5th gear would be the exact gearing as 4th gear in my 89 incher and 6 would be 500 rpm less.  I ran that with the 96 incher about 5000 miles before i went to the 49t sprocket. and that's still what I want to do. we'll see....

[monty101]

there's some honest people out there. i called up dave mackey and he wouldn't sell me a cam because he said I had too much compression 200 lbs and he was worried I'd have detonation or have a problem starting the scooter. He told me to call up Jim Leineweber and tell him about the compression and he would agree that the l3s with 28 degrees of overlap might not be appropriate and the the l3 with 46 degrees of overlap and 260 degrees of duration would be more appropriate. Not only was he not selling me his cam he was telling me which Leineweber cam he thought would be best. he used to work for Jim. He told me he started selling cams and copied some of the leineweber features.

I called up Jim and he steered me to a l51 with 42 degrees of overlap and the same intake open and close stats as the b cam I'm running and a 508 lift. I believe he still thought the l3s with 28 degrees of overlap would work but he went along with the Mackey recommendation and decided to go along with a 42 degee instead of a 28 degree overlap.  i told him I just wanted to move the power range down 500 rpms so my scooter would pull ok in 6th at 2900 rpm. He said he thought the l51 would do that plus++++++. We'll see... I did plot the cam out on a 0-720 degree chart and I don't really understand why mackey felt his dm500 wouldn't work. I thought it would but he didn't for whatever reason. He's only got two to sell and leineweber has 15. so, I figure he figured somewhere in that 15 was one better than either of the ones he was selling. I guess he's just honest. I asked him about it and he said that's just the way he is.