leineweber l3s cam

[Hillside Motorcycle]

What otis said.
Have used a metric ton of "Uncle Jims" cams, and that L3S is a KILLER cam, set up correctly.
Folks used to howl about the springs/lifters years ago, but much better technology since then.
My brother runs an L6 in his 103", ridgid. Wicked sound, and 100 hp, 111 ft/lbs. Spanks(embarasses) T/C's and Evo's at will.
Scott

[otis]

Monty,

Awesome.....please let us know how much you like that cam.  Mark my words, you going to scream "holy "Potty mouth"" the first time you grab a hand full.  Then you'll do it again.....yeeehaaa

I disagree with the other comment....some of us still build our motors...maybe not as many, but we're still here.

Pat

[HotRodShovel]

What a wealth of knowledge going on here. I don't want to hijack this thread but I will gladly take some opinions about my set up. I will have on the primary belt 47 teeth at the motor pulley and 76 at the clutch basket. My final chain drive is a 23 tooth sprocket at the trans with 49 teeth at the rear wheel. I will be installing a Baker 6 in 4 and my motor is a stock (.040 over) HD Shovelhead. My cam is an Andrews A grind. I am concerned at to end performance. I just want to keep up with the twinkies and evos and not blow my top end again.
What cam will give me the optimum performance out of my set up. Remember, I'm all about the highway, not drag.
Thanks in advance.

[monty101]

If your motor is stock I'd try a l3s. Can't beat the 28 degrees of overlap to produce low and mid range power. The lift is about 485 or so and the steep ramp causes the valves to open quicker and stay open longer and that lift may work with a stock motor. You will have to call Leineweber to verify the the valve lift is ok with your setup. The steep lift I think makes that cam comparable to a cam probably .2 inches taller. You'll need that power at the lower end to pull that 6th gear. Its about 500 rpm slower than your old 4 speed and if you have a cam that doesn't have a overlap in the lower 40's or lower you won't probably have the power at the lower rpm. I suspect the other cams with low overlap will have too tall a lift to work in a stock head. I'm running a Andrews b cam and I switching to a leineweber cam to get the lower overlap because the b cam power range is in the range of 3300 to 5500 and my scooter is only running 2900 rpms at 85 which causes it to have a flat spot in 6th gear until you get up to around 3300 rpms which is 95 mph or so. I could just put a taller rear sprocket on it but I like the smooth ride I get at 2900 rpms.

[v10ole]

Keep us posted after ya ran that cam for awhile that can be an learning experience to remember..........Ole

[monty101]

Guess I should have listened to dave Mackey. This l51 cam is going to make this stroker hard to start even with my all balls starter. It has 42 degrees of overlap. Mackey told me to go with a L3 that has 47 degrees of duration and I let Jim steer me to the l51. I'll let my battery get good and charged and give it a whirl tomorrow. If it is a problem I can put my old ignition back on and run some compression releases I have. That should make it possible to start it without running the battery down and then I'll be able to see if it pings. if it doesn't ping I'll run it like that. The rings haven't seated yet and the compression is only 180 pounds. God if I'd got a l3s with 28 degrees of overlap that Jim wanted me to get I would really have some problems. It started great with that B cam that had 52 degrees of overlap. We'll see what happens tomorrow.

[monty101]

checked my battery and it was fully charged. that was probably the reason I couldn't get it to start yesterday. I have the releases in it and wow it cranked right up and it sounds bad.......This afternoon maybe I can take it for a run down the road.....It cranks without the compressions release pushed on so I guess it was the battery.

[monty101]

Put about about 10 miles on her this morning down the freeway. Wow she isn't under powered in 6th now. finally got it right I guess. I can cruise at 75 and it is so smooth you'd think it was a goldwing and twist the throttle and she hits 95 with no flat spot. Looks like the power range starts about 2500 and goes up to god knows what. Probably 6k. Its running 2600 rpm at 75 in 6th.

I couldn't get it to start and ran the battery down to 12.5 last nite and put the compression releases back in and this morning with the trickle charger it showed 14 on the voltmeter. It cranked right up and then I killed it and tried it without the releases and she started as soon as I hit the button. I guess I can pull the releases and put the dual plugs back in if I want.

I had to grind a little off the cases to keep the intake lobe from hitting other than that it went right in. Now I got a andrews b&c cam to get rid of I guess. I can't believe the difference. I guess the higher lobe helps. I compared it to the C cam. The slope appears to be the same but it's got more of a blunt nose on the cone to I guess keep the valve open longer. Jim Leineweber said if I keep the pushrods tight and made sure they weren't set up with any slope I shouldn't have any problem with the valve train. i guess we'll see. I looked at that blunt area of the cam nose and I guess it probably keeps the valve at 100% open a lot longer and that probably makes it comparable to a cam that has a higher lift. If that blunt area was shaved off and stacked on top the nose it would be .2 higher. I figure it's got a 508 lift and that's comparable to the 530 dme cam because of the nose being blunt. the intake duration is longer than the dme500 too( its the same as the b cam) and that I guess would make the l51s pull in more fuel on intake. so, I figure its about the most power i could probably get out of that old shovel coupled with the fact its running 190-200 lbs of compression.  guess I finally got a road bike. I thought I was going to have to get a honda.

[HotRodShovel]

Monty, you recommended the l3s in my stock shovel. remember I'm installing a 6 into 4 trans.  I read your last post and man, that's what I'm looking for. A smooth wide open ride with plenty of life left to run steady at higher speeds 85+

Is this a bolt in cam or does it require any head modifications?

[monty101]

You know its got a 508 lift which means it may not work in stock heads. A lot of old shovelhead heads have had the valves beating the seats so long that the seats are sunk into the heads so much the valve stems stick out the top of the heads so far that you can run a high lift cam. I got a 89 incher that with stock heads I ran a Andrews c cam for a while that had a 525 lift.  It just depends on the seats if the stock heads. If the stock heads have been rebuilt and have new seats then it probably won't handle a high lift cam.

I figure you could probably get the ls3 cam to work. Its got a lift of about 485 or so. It'll be harder to start than a stock but I think I'd try it especially if you have a kicker. If you don't I figure a all balls starter will start it. I'd go with the l3s if lieneweber thinks it will work with your heads. I don't see the point in a higher lift cam because you have pretty much a stock motor. I got a bigger cam but it can handle it ok because its got 96-97 cubic inches and 200 lbs of compression. If you go through the changes to build it bigger then you can get a cam like I bought because I know it will do what you want.

I think the l3s probably will if its possible get you what you want. You know evos run 6 speeds and with that cam I believe you'll have something equivalent to the evos that run 6 speeds. Evos don't experience the flat spot problem i had because they have cams with 240 or so duration and a low overlap. You'll have a lot better cam than that with the l3s cam. Its steep ramps and 28 degrees of overlap make it pull a lot harder than any stock evo.

[HotRodShovel]

Actually my heads are older. I just had my top end done (i don't do the machine work, just assembly) and my machinist kept the old seats, replaced guides, springs and valves but said that the next rebuild will probably call for new seats. If I put this cam in now and down the road have new seats put in, well it sounds like there will be some trouble.

I am also installing an electric start with a 1.4kw starter. Will that be enough juice to crank over this cam? I would think so since I'm not running a stroker or big bore but I am under the impression that 1.4kw is good for even for smaller strokers and up to 96".

What do you think? I appreciate your time bro.

[monty101]

yeah,  the l3s would probably work with the heads. talk to the dude who did the work. If he needs the work he will probably want you to let him pull the heads off and check them out. I don't trust most shops. Hell, I don't trust anybody. Many will tell you they need to do "brain surgery" so they can generate billable time when they may already know the ans. to your problem. I'd also talk to Jim Leineweber.  He knows about as much as anyone. He's 74 years old. He's made a lot of cams for Harleys. The only guy that sells 12 diff shovelhead cams. He's a one man show according to Dave mackey.

I'd put some Hi lift andrews springs and andrew high lift upper collars and low profile lower collars on it when you have the heads redone. Those set ups are good if you want to set up the head to handle cams that have up to .6" lift. If necessary, you will have to file off the valve guides to get add'l valve spring travel . I vaguely remember now that I did have to file a little off the front head on my other shovelhead that I ran a 525 lift c cam on. I believe it would handle a 1/2 and I needed .525.

If it was me I'd pull the rocker box cover off the front cylinder and measure the height of the top of the valve stem above the keepers down to the top of the valve guides and check to make sure there is enough up and down room for the valve to open 1/2 inch or so which would be more than enough to open the amt needed by the l3s. Its about 485 lift or so. Course I can pull the front rocker box cover off without even taking the front tank of because my front legs are stretched 7 inches.

The all Balls start I have works great. I'm sure the one you have will be fine.  I think the 350 cca big boar battery is one the best things you can put on a hi performance Harley. You'll have a good setup and you probably won't have to run premium gas.
I will be a good running highway bike. much like some of the evos out there that run 6 gears except yours will pull harder. Just my 2c...Good luck....

[HotRodShovel]

Monty,
Hey man, thanks very much for taking the time to answer me on this. I have a 2" stretch on my down tubes it'll be OK. I can get it off. I will also call Jim Leineweber to get his advice. My guy did put high lift S&S springs in so hopefully this will work without re-doing my heads.

Thanks again.

[monty101]

rudy if you put in andrews high lift upper collars then you should be ok with that cam. Most mfg of springs and collars make collars that give you evough spring travel to run a andrew b cam and they have 485 lift. find out about the collars you installed. If they are mid or hi lift andrews you should be fine. I don't know about s&s collars. I'm sure they got collars too that give you more spring travel just like the andrews collars.

[HotRodShovel]

Thats more good news, man. Thanks. I will let you know when I get them off and the cam installed. Much obliged Monty.

[otis]

O.K. Monty.....did you...scream "holy "Potty mouth"" the first time you grab a hand full.....or what....

Jim is the best..

[monty101]

yeh that leineweber cam is all good. perfect combo with those 4 5/8 torquemonster flywheels and 200 lbs of compression. Life is now sweet..... motor kinda barks at you now when its idling....I'll let my kid ride it this week end so I can hear how it sounds.  Once let my brother in law ride it around the block with the b cam and once he got it in the power band in 2nd it sounded like a double a fueler coming down the steet. I can't imagine what it will sound like now.

[HotRodShovel]

I had this comment posted elsewhere but I think it may be of some value here.

Monty,
I just spoke to Jim Leineweber. You were right, he is a great guy and he told me how to measure the travel at the lifter/pushrod end rather than take off the rocker box. I spoke to someone at Andrews to get the cam lift of my A grind so I could compare it with that of the l3s and he was dead against what Jim told me. He said it all had to do with compression and if I had low compression pistons, a more aggressive cam would not work. Jim did not even mention compression.
Hmmm now I'm confused.

[monty101]

Interesting but not surprising.

I suspect some of these other guys don't have high compression pistons and run 200 lbs compression like I do. The evos don't either and they run 6 gears but they have a low amt of overlap. I suspect they have about the same hp as you but they got that hp in the rpm range that is necessary to pull a 6th gear. I think Otis has had his scooter on a dyno with a b cam and a l3s gets him 10 add'l hp across the entire rpm range. You need to talk to him because he may have a stock motor. I don't

I'd be curious how much compression you are running. The cam puts whatever hp you have in the lower rpm range . I suspect it will help no matter how much compression you are running.

The cam eliminates the overlap problem that prevemts the intake stroke from sucking gas into the combustion chamber. Therefore you will suck in more gas and on the compression stroke the more gas you have in the combustion chamber the more compression you have and the bigger the bang. Its true after you are in the power band the piston is moving so fast that it will run the same with or without any change in the amt of time both intake and exh are open. Obviously the faster the pistons move hence the higher the rpm and eventually when they move fast enough the overlap won't matter and you get max hp.  But at the rpms you'll be running a 6th gear you will need hp to be in that power band then or you won't have the hp to pull the gearing. All that cam does is get you to have power at that lower rpm. It doesnt make the scooter a drag bike. Some of these bikes have .7 lift which results in cams with high duration and high overlap. Once they get the pistons moving fast enough and the overlap problem becomes a non problem. the high lift allows them to pull in tremendous amt of gas and that creates a lot more hp at the higher rpms than a cam like the l3s or the l51 I put in. But those motors probably couldn't pull a 6th gear at 2500 rpms either. Their max hp is at 6000 rpm. Mine does pull at the lower range and I think that's what you probably want too. Mine  sounds bad assed. runs stronger now but the big thing is  it has power at the lower rpms.  I'm sure it probably does have more hp because of the higher lift too. I am breaking in the rings and I haven't ran her over 3500 rpms yet.  If Otis is right about the 10 hp and I'm sure he is because of the steep cam slopes at the lower rpm range the max hp you get now will be 10 hp higher and that should make your motor equivalent to or stronger than a evo and they run 6 speed trannys.

If you want more compression then go with the l3s and have the heads shaved and put .03 in head gaskets on instead of .4 and put .2 base gaskets instead of .3. That should get you more hp. cometic makes the gaskets. jpcycles sells them.

I think If I was you and I thought your valve train could handle the lift I would just get the cam. install it. I'd probably just leave the cam bearing alone unless it really needed to be replaced and see how it did. I'd also check the compression . If it was low ,later on when you have the heads off I would have them shaved and see what the compression was then. I think nightrider has something that tells you the max amt you can shave heads and what add'l compression that produces. I believe its significant. I had the base of my cylinders shaved by truett and osborn. they aren't .2 higher anymore. I don't think you should want compression over 180. My other scooter runs 170 and it has to run premium too.

You got to remember mackey told me I had too much compression for a l3s cam. He said that cam with the short overlap would increase compression and might cause my motor to ping or be hard to start. I believe he's probably right. I think Andrews is telling you the truth and would be important if you wanted a lot of hp and was building a race bike. You'll get what ever compression the cam allows based on how much gas the lift of the cam allows to get sucked into the chamber to be compressed. the more the compression ratio the bigger the bang. You don't need that much hp you just need it at the lower rpms. Just my 2c.

[monty101]

looked up the andrews A cam. its already got the short duration 244 you need. Your shovel may pull a 6 gear now. If not you will need more hp. the l3s will get you 10 add'l hp because of their  steep ramps and if you want more you'll need thinner head gaskets and base gaskets or as I have said you can always shave the heads.

Like I said the cam puts whatever hp you can produce at whatever rpm the overlap allows. As I've said, I'd run it like it is since the over lap is ok and then get a l3s and then I'd shave the heads if the thinner head and base gaskets didn't help enough.

If you decide you want more hp . get some $169 revtech big bore jugs off ebay and 9 1/2 wiesco pistons and have Truett and Osborn sell you some of their 4 5/8 inch torquemonster flywheels. they;'ll dynamically balance it for you. I think it cost me $1500 to build my other scooter. My other 89 inch shovel is set up like that. It's a beast and it runs a andrew b cam. Yeah Leineweber is trying to get me to buy his l3s for it too. Its not a 6 speed and the b cam is fine for it.

[HotRodShovel]

Well, brother, you are a wealth of info and I do appreciate your time helping me figure out whats what.  I will check my compression tomorrow and let you know. I will also measure the clearance as Leineweber suggested.  The cam lift for the Andrews A is .315 so I only need an additional .025 (l3s is .337 but he asks for .340) travel and I am pretty sure I got that with the S&S springs. If so I will bolt in the l3s and if the cam bearing is OK, I will leave it as you said. I will run it like that until the weather turns in a few months.  If I install the big bore jugs then I will have to have my cases cut as well, right? That might be a good project for the winter. Pull the motor and do a stroke/big bore rebuild.

Thank you Monty.

[monty101]

yeah, you will have to have the spigot bored.

I would stroke it with anything other than truett and osborn torquemonster flywheels. i'v done it with s&s and they are too light IMHO. I thought I'd ruined my panhead when I put s&s flywheels in it because I couldn't putt anymore. When you slowed down you'd have to down shift like a sportster. The heavier t/o flywheels don't loose the centrifical force and allow you to slow down and take off just like a shovel is supposed to do. Truett and Osborn dual plugged my heads for 100 bucks. they balance them for about 165 or so. They are reasonable. the sell after market jugs too if you don't want to pay the tab for s&s. I would have got their jugs if I had it to do over. My mach shop told me it doesn't make any diff if they are set up right for the pistons. They are wrong in that some chinese stuff isn't up to snuff but I'm sure the stuff t/o sells is. i know my revtech jugs are just as good as the s&s but a heck of a lot cheaper. If you get them to install the inner temkin bearing and send you the rest of the kit which has the space and outside bearing all you have to do is plug fit the pinion roller bearing and buckle the case halfs back together. That's pretty much it.

of course if you stroke it you will have to set it up and spin the pistons up and down and measure the clearance the flywheels have to the pistons. You may have to shave some off the piston skirts if they are weiscos. You also have to drill into the cases to route the oil drain hole to the middle of the lip on the cases because it has to be lower to allow for the piston to come down lower in the cylinder. Oh well, t/o will do all that for you if you send them the cases too. They have a website and their rates are published and reasonable.

I think  finding out what the comp is is the best thing you  can do right now. I can't remember but i think you can increase the comp ratio of 8 1/2 to 1 pistons to equal 9 1/2 to 1 just by shaving the heads a little. Like I said there's info on that I think in the nightrider.com website. If it isn't there then a mach shop that does harley work will know. In fact I am sure T/O will know. If they don't they know who will know. Don't hold me to it but I think it's 10 thousands of an inch. But I could be wrong but I think that's what it is. A 80 incher running 9 1/2 to one with a l3s and a 6 speed would be a good scooter. That extra lift related to keeping the valves open longer will make those 485 lift l3s seem like you have a half inch lift and that would give you like Otis said an add'l 10 hp.  a stock harley head don't get better than that unless you "D" the intake floors.

[HotRodShovel]

I'm gonna check out the T & O website and see what I can afford right now. Between the 6 speed trans, the electric start and the l3s, I'm about done for this year. I do think the option of just shaving down the heads and using the thinner gaskets would really be all I need. Like you said, 10 extra HP is alot out of a Shovel and it will stay well in the pack of Evo's & TC's.
I will post my compression for sure hopefully tomorrow. Thanks again brother.

[monty101]

here's the nightrider link on shaving the heads to increase your hp

http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/hdhead_compression.htm

[monty101]

that link also give you a summary of performance expectations related to compression. More than you need to know.....