Tmax and backfiring

[sprocket99]

Hoping someone here has an idea why my 07 Street Bob backfires on decel. Also has decel pop. I run a Tmax, V&H slip-ons with BCT QQ baffles, Big Sucker on a stock motor. The folks at Zippers have sent me several new maps since last fall and had me out to their shop in June. Did some retuning which got my mpg from 30 to close to 40 (if I’m kind to the throttle), but still backfires. It happens mostly on closed throttle after higher rpms, sometimes between shifts and is intermittent.
The last setting they had me change was to increase the high rpm fuel cutoff by 50 rpm at a shot, which now is at around 3100. I’ve checked for intake and exhaust leaks, even had my indy confirm, he could find no leaks.
Been riding off and on for 40 years, I do a lot of the work myself having worked in a couple of bike shops back in the day, but this is my first EFI. I’ve been told everything from “it’s just tuning” to “that’s the nature of the exhaust setup and live with it”.  I will live with it if I have to, but it still bugs me and I think that someone might have some ideas.

[Admiral Akbar]

Plug the left side muffler up some.. advance timing from 0 to 14 deg TPS all RPM ranges the pop occurs. Max

[FLTRI]

Plug the left side muffler up some..

Now there's some "sound" advice

[mayor]

.. advance timing from 0 to 14 deg TPS all RPM ranges the pop occurs. Max

here's a video that shows you a slightly different way of increasing timing for the T-max:
Tuning T-max: 1. Zippers Thundermax timing adjustments to limit popping and coughing at lower RPM's

[sprocket99]

Thanks, I'll give it a try tomorrow.  That video looks good, too.
Max, forgive my ignorance, but what do you mean when you say "plug up the left side"?

I have another question for now- when I link up there is a message to synchronize with the module because I guess the map on my laptop is not the one Zippers installed on the module. Is it necessary for me to save the module map on the computer, and if so, how is it done, just hit "save" when I exit the program? Just want to make sure I still have it in case I screw things up.

[05RKClass]

sprocket, I've been messing with my TMax more lately.  From what I understand, when you "sync" the module it reads all the learned offsets from the autotune process and stores them to your PC.  You should do a "save as" and create a subfolder where all the other maps are to keep this "new" map seperate from the originals.  I changed the date at the end of the file name to help keep things strainght for myself.  If you just do a "save", it will overwrite the original map.... whoops?!

[sprocket99]

05, that's kind of what I thought. All I've done with the TMax is make setting changes, never tweaked the timing, so this could be challenging. It doesn't help that I don't have a tach, but I guess I'm not alone.
I wonder why the techs at Zippers don't do these things that lots of you seem to take for granted.

[Admiral Akbar]

Plug the left side muffler up some..

Now there's some "sound" advice

Max

[sprocket99]

Plug the left side muffler up some..

Now there's some "sound" advice

Max

OK, I give up. I searched the forum and found nothing about how to plug a muffler, so please give me a little more info.
I did increase the timing as suggested, that video was a great help since I am aged. After one ride it seemed like the decel pop was greatly reduced but still got some backfire, so I guess it needs a little more tweaking. Any ideas? Unless it has to go through a couple more learning sessions.
I'm pretty sure I took the right steps to load the changed map and tried to follow the tuning manual but I get confused with the terms, not sure when or whether to save, write, clear, etc.  I realize it's routine for many of you, but sometimes I need to see the step by step process to initiate the changes. I don't mean to be a pain but I'm a novice at EFI tuning and would greatly appreciate if someone could walk me through it. BTW, thanks for everything so far.

[nc-renegade]

Have you enabled the Decel Fuel Cutoff setting under Basic settings?

[sprocket99]

Yes, it is enabled.

[mayor]

can you do a write learned offset, then "save as" onto your computer, then attach that file so we can see what you have so far?

[sprocket99]

I'll give that a try

[sprocket99]

Here goes. Hope this is what you want. If not, let me know.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[mayor]

looks like the early rpm timing is plenty enough (maybe a little too much).  what did you change on that map, and what was there already (from Zippers)? 

looks like the afr was adjusted as well, did you do that or was that done by Zippers? and have you it on a dyno to compare afr yet?

where is your tps at idle?   

[sprocket99]

First of all, I didn't run the IAC auto correctly, I just redid that, if it makes a difference on what you see I can redo the file and resend.
I changed the advance several degrees to make a smoother curve and in each timing vs. TPS area advanced it another degree. Zippers had timing retarded at idle.
The AFRs were from Zippers.
And I'm afraid I don't understand your last question- TPS at idle. Obviously, this is new to me and I'm just starting to be able to wrap my head around the terms and procedures.
Let me know what you think.

[mayor]

sorry, what I was asking is where does your throttle position rest at idle?  when you are hooked up to the bike, open up the timing v. tps @1024, after you hit link and monitor.....you will see a vertical red line indicating throttle plate position.   

[sprocket99]

looks like it's around 13

[mayor]

ok, 13 sounds about right.  in what gear and at what speeds are you experiencing popping?  since you don't have a tach- pick one gear and check what speed the popping starts and when it ends. 

The AFRs were from Zippers.

was the afr adjusted when they had you to their shop in June?  the afr from 2k-4k looks funky.  they have the WOT adjusted around 12.1:1, yet they have the light tps afr around 13.8:1.  did they adjust this on a dyno?  I'm just trying to figure why they have the afr so rich at WOT.  If they needed to run it that rich to account for the wide bands not being accurate to a sniffer (dyno afr), then the light tps may be leaner than you might want as well.   

[sprocket99]

One instance of popping will occur in 3rd gear, from 45-50 mph.
I don't know if the AFR was changed in June, the tech spent about 2 hours on it and needed to move on to something else. He didn't mention it, but I didn't want to look over his shoulder while he was working.
No dyno.

[sprocket99]

Come to think of it, he did lean it out a bit so maybe he did adjust the AFRs.

[Admiral Akbar]

OK, I give up. I searched the forum and found nothing about how to plug a muffler, so please give me a little more info.

Without looking at the muffler itself it would be hard to say exactly what to do... I've heard of some adding a freeze plug inside the cross over pipe and plugging it off completely. I'd probably figure our a way to add some more restriction to the baffle..  Maybe a big washer welded to the baffle or a washer on a bolt so that you can turn it.. One of the first thing both mayor and I did was to convert the exhaust system from the crossover to a true duals.. While this may not make the best HP compared to a 2 into 1, keeps air from making it's way back into the left pipe..

I'd figure out some temporary way to plug the pipe so if it don't work it's easy to return back to original..

Max

[sprocket99]

Max
I'm using V&H slip-ons with BCT QQ baffles. I installed a short portion of the original baffle behind the BCT just to quiet it down a bit, this was a tip from the tech at BCT. What I might try is to fasten a perforated crumb cup, about 1.75" dia., which is a small sink strainer inside the end baffle. That should slow down the flow and I already have it, sounds easier than going into the crossover or fabricating a lollipop (there is already one large and one small one in the BCT). I'll see how that works for now.

[mayor]

One of the first thing both mayor and I did was to convert the exhaust system from the crossover to a true duals.. While this may not make the best HP compared to a 2 into 1, keeps air from making it's way back into the left pipe..

yep, I'm glad I listened to you too.  I think it would be hard for the autotune to tell what air readings are real and what readings are reverb.   did you look at the map sprocket attached?   I wonder if Zippers intentionally adjusted afr to account for the troubled area?

[sprocket99]

When I changed my baffles the tech at Zippers told me to clear the learned fuel offsets. Is this something I should do when I make any adjustments to the muffler?

[mayor]

sprocket,
I'm not running a tach on my T-max bike either, so just to give you a reference to RPM on your bike  in 5th gear - 48mph is around 2k, 60mph is around 2.5k and 70mph is around 3k.  

When I changed my baffles the tech at Zippers told me to clear the learned fuel offsets. Is this something I should do when I make any adjustments to the muffler?

they're telling you that in case the changes make drastic differences in air flow (fuel requirements).  my guess is the t-max will be able to account for most changes well enough not to worry about your learned offsets, besides it didn't look like the base fuel maps were altered that much on the map you attached.  

I played with your map a little, I attached one with the changes I made.  It was easier than trying to explain what to try.  I readjusted the timing a little, and I changed your afr to richen up slightly at decel.  try this and report back on how it works.  

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[sprocket99]

sprocket,
I'm not running a tach on my T-max bike either, so just to give you a reference to RPM on your bike  in 5th gear - 48mph is around 2k, 60mph is around 2.5k and 70mph is around 3k.  

When I changed my baffles the tech at Zippers told me to clear the learned fuel offsets. Is this something I should do when I make any adjustments to the muffler?

they're telling you that in case the changes make drastic differences in air flow (fuel requirements).  my guess is the t-max will be able to account for most changes well enough not to worry about your learned offsets, besides it didn't look like the base fuel maps were altered that much on the map you attached.  

I played with your map a little, I attached one with the changes I made.  It was easier than trying to explain what to try.  I readjusted the timing a little, and I changed your afr to richen up slightly at decel.  try this and report back on how it works.  

Thanks! I'll try that tomorrow. Hope it doesn't rain. I don't make any changes to the muffler, just one variable at a time,  unless you think otherwise.

[mayor]

one variable at a time is probably best.  I'm not a tuner and I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn last night, so we'll see how that works.      btw....I stayed in a Comfort Inn last night, so hopefully that doesn't affect the outcome.   

[sprocket99]

one variable at a time is probably best.  I'm not a tuner and I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn last night, so we'll see how that works.      btw....I stayed in a Comfort Inn last night, so hopefully that doesn't affect the outcome.   

What might affect the outcome is not where you stayed, but what you were doing while you were there.

[7hogs]

Bob always has something good to say

[sprocket99]

sprocket,
I'm not running a tach on my T-max bike either, so just to give you a reference to RPM on your bike  in 5th gear - 48mph is around 2k, 60mph is around 2.5k and 70mph is around 3k.  

When I changed my baffles the tech at Zippers told me to clear the learned fuel offsets. Is this something I should do when I make any adjustments to the muffler?

they're telling you that in case the changes make drastic differences in air flow (fuel requirements).  my guess is the t-max will be able to account for most changes well enough not to worry about your learned offsets, besides it didn't look like the base fuel maps were altered that much on the map you attached.  


I played with your map a little, I attached one with the changes I made.  It was easier than trying to explain what to try.  I readjusted the timing a little, and I changed your afr to richen up slightly at decel.  try this and report back on how it works.  

I loaded the map you sent. Now, I wasn't clear about the process so I loaded it as TMax instructs to do with a new map. Nothing I could find in the manual described installing a modified map, so I hope I didn't destroy anything of value.
Anyway, got in about a 40 mile ride and 90% of the decel pop was gone, but the backfire persisted. I could replicate it in 2nd gear at about 30-35 mph when rolling off the throttle. I can ride some more to see if auto tune will compensate, or I can try to plug that left muffler, or make some more changes, whatever you think.

[FLTRI]

.... or I can try to plug that left muffler, or make some more changes, whatever you think.

I would use the plugged left side for the lasr resort. You may get rid of the decel pops but at the cost of power. Contrary to popular opinions, the "Y" pipe system works well for mild builds.
Bob

[mayor]

I loaded the map you sent. Now, I wasn't clear about the process so I loaded it as TMax instructs to do with a new map. Nothing I could find in the manual described installing a modified map, so I hope I didn't destroy anything of value.

no worries...I modified the map that you posted, so it was the same as what you had.  


I'm at a loss on the back firing.    

is it any worse with the adjusted map?

does it only happen at heavy decel?  

it may be an issue with the connected pipes adding afr "noise" and confusing the autotune.  You may need to get a base line dyno run to see what is going on.  

[Admiral Akbar]

I played with your map a little, I attached one with the changes I made.  It was easier than trying to explain what to try.  I readjusted the timing a little, and I changed your afr to richen up slightly at decel.  try this and report back on how it works. 

Man what a fugly map... Good thing no one wakes the throttle wide open at 1000 RPM..  Max

[sprocket99]

The backfire is worse, much louder sometimes and more frequent. It's at heavy and moderate decel. I easily can make it happen at 30-35 mph in 2nd, for example.
The dyno is an option but from asking around the only decent one is about an hour and a half from me so I wasn't ready to make the leap. Have to think about that.

[mayor]

where are you located? 

[sprocket99]

between Philly and Wilmington

[mayor]

max, what rpm range is 30-35 mph in 2nd? (I'm 400 miles from my bikes right now )

[7hogs]

Just a thought but I would re initialize the unit by turning your power switch that is explained in the documentation and also disable the fuel cut on decel.

Once you have done this ride the bike and let it make some adjustments and once the fuel offsets get balanced out and you still are issues re run your Auto IAC.

Also very basic but make sure your muffler clamps are tight.

[7hogs]

PS....................... the TMAX will take some time to balance out

[sprocket99]

Thanks for the idea. I should be able to do that today. Actually, I replaced my clamps a couple of weeks ago and sealed them with hi temp copper silicone just to make sure.

[sprocket99]

Great news! OK, I reinitialized and disabled the decel pop setting. Maybe I should have just gone with the initializing first, to avoid 2 variables. Anyway, it is MUCH better! The noise I get is more subdued, more like a loud fart than a .38, and much less frequent.
I was able to narrow it down to where I can duplicate the range:
In 2nd gear, if I let off at 40 mph, it will pop at about 34 mph.
In 3rd, letting off at 50, will pop at about 43.
So if we can determine what RPM this translates to, that would help, right?

[sprocket99]

I have these:

1. The attachment is an Excel spreadsheet and should work to narrow the rpm range.  After that, I need your help.
Mine is an '07 6 sp.

2. This is also good- http://www.bigboyzheadporting.com/Gearratio.htm




[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[mayor]

based on the information you posted, looks like 2.7-2.8k is your problem area.  so what are you experiencing now- a back fire or a pop?


if it's popping, try adjusting the 2816 rpm timing map a little more in the light tps area (match your map to the red circled area below):



if you think it's backfiring, try cutting some fuel away from the light tps ranges of the 2560, 2816, and 3072 afr maps (match your map to the red circled area below):

[sprocket99]

based on the information you posted, looks like 2.7-2.8k is your problem area.  so what are you experiencing now- a back fire or a pop?


if it's popping, try adjusting the 2816 rpm timing map a little more in the light tps area (match your map to the red circled area below):



if you think it's backfiring, try cutting some fuel away from the light tps ranges of the 2560, 2816, and 3072 afr maps (match your map to the red circled area below):

It's hard to tell whether it's a pop or backfire, but I'll adjust for pop first. Since I disabled the decel pop setting it might be that. If not, I'll cut fuel in those areas.
mayor, thanks for your work on this. I will report back.

[mayor]

Just a thought but I would re initialize the unit by turning your power switch that is explained in the documentation and also disable the fuel cut on decel.

good catch on disabling the fuel cut function 7hogs.  I never gave that a thought.    I prefer not to use that function, since most of the time timing adjustments can limit the need to use it. 

[sprocket99]

Tried the decel pop adjustment, didn't seem to make much difference, so I adjusted the map for backfire. (I didn't leave in the adjustments for the pop.) It didn't go away, but is less consistent. Shows up at 2900-3000 rpm according to the chart. I was only able to ride about 30 miles, so I don't know if it will improve with more riding. Or, if you think more adjustments are in order, I'm good with that also.
Since my setting for decel fuel cut rpm high was set at 2784, I put it back to the default of 2400 rpm, and the backfire was occurring at a lower range, about 2600-2800 rpm. Especially in 2nd gear. Don't know if it's significant, just saying.
Regardless, with your help we've made more progress in the last 2 days than in the last year, so I am real happy with the results so far.

[7hogs]

Great news! OK, I reinitialized and disabled the decel pop setting. Maybe I should have just gone with the initializing first, to avoid 2 variables. Anyway, it is MUCH better! The noise I get is more subdued, more like a loud fart than a .38, and much less frequent.
I was able to narrow it down to where I can duplicate the range:
In 2nd gear, if I let off at 40 mph, it will pop at about 34 mph.
In 3rd, letting off at 50, will pop at about 43.
So if we can determine what RPM this translates to, that would help, right?

If that worked leave it and let it adjust itself......... now if you apply your learned offsets it will adjust thing you need plus things you do not like the pop and it will go away as it re adjust the stuff it took away................... ride it and leave it alone for awhile and see what happens........ I have been working with the TMAX since 2006 and there are more things to understand and I learn more every day

?? Doe the bike pop while it is warming up when you ride it? If know I know what you need to do.

[7hogs]

Looked at your MAP and one thing I would do is go to

Air Fuel Ratios Curves,

AFR Correction vs Engine Temp, Go to  226 degrees AFR correction 3.515 hit the L key, go to 401 degrees change it to 3.515 and hit the L key and it should draw a straight line across and if it get better or goes away you know you are on the right track.

Let me know if that helps but looking at your curve there seems to be to lean for my taste.

[sprocket99]

Great news! OK, I reinitialized and disabled the decel pop setting. Maybe I should have just gone with the initializing first, to avoid 2 variables. Anyway, it is MUCH better! The noise I get is more subdued, more like a loud fart than a .38, and much less frequent.
I was able to narrow it down to where I can duplicate the range:
In 2nd gear, if I let off at 40 mph, it will pop at about 34 mph.
In 3rd, letting off at 50, will pop at about 43.
So if we can determine what RPM this translates to, that would help, right?

If that worked leave it and let it adjust itself......... now if you apply your learned offsets it will adjust thing you need plus things you do not like the pop and it will go away as it re adjust the stuff it took away................... ride it and leave it alone for awhile and see what happens........ I have been working with the TMAX since 2006 and there are more things to understand and I learn more every day

?? Doe the bike pop while it is warming up when you ride it? If know I know what you need to do.

It does pop while warming, gets better after awhile. I will look at the AFR correction and try what you say.

[sprocket99]

Looked at your MAP and one thing I would do is go to

Air Fuel Ratios Curves,

AFR Correction vs Engine Temp, Go to  226 degrees AFR correction 3.515 hit the L key, go to 401 degrees change it to 3.515 and hit the L key and it should draw a straight line across and if it get better or goes away you know you are on the right track.

Let me know if that helps but looking at your curve there seems to be to lean for my taste.

I think I made that correction, but just guessing where where 3.515 is, unless there is a better way.

[7hogs]

When you are in the MAP area to make changes hit the space bar and the info will appear.

You can also add to the lower temps to fix this also. I had to increase the correction across the board.

Print of the manual and put it in the shitter and pick it up and ready during the long ones

[sprocket99]

When you are in the MAP area to make changes hit the space bar and the info will appear.

You can also add to the lower temps to fix this also. I had to increase the correction across the board.

Print of the manual and put it in the shitter and pick it up and ready during the long ones

Duh. Thanks. I better read all of it.
On adding lower temps- how much at a time to add? Is there a limit? (I assume using the AFR correction vs engine temp). And is this something I should do right away? Sorry about all the questions.

[7hogs]

Go to the AFR correction vs temp, make sure you are linked to the bike, click on monitor and look at your AFR front and rear corrections and if you see a bunch on fuel being added (above 12%) look at the monitor line to see where you need to add. Once you hit 200 the auto tune kicks in.

Where are you at?

Read up on the monitor log and what and where the file is stored. During a cold warm up run the monitor log all the way up to 275 and if you could send it to me I can look at it call you back and step you through the changes and explain what you are doing.

Cool?

Send me a PM and your info and I can explain a lot more over the phone than typing it out.

[7hogs]

OK I looked your map over and Mayors Map over and he is on the right track but I put my twist on it being a stock bike except intake and exhaust.


Look at the changes I made in the AFR correction vs eng temp, timing and AFR.


If you load this and that is totally up to you. Load it, run the initialization and ride it and keep a eye out on your learned offsets.............

If you want just change the AFR correction vs Eng Temp and see if that helps

Looking over your Map it seems to me that you AFR is way off plus your timing.



[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[7hogs]

I forgot.

Always clear your learned offsets when loading a new MAP.

[mayor]

not trying to take anything away from what you posted 7....but wow, you sure like timing.    

[sprocket99]

OK I looked your map over and Mayors Map over and he is on the right track but I put my twist on it being a stock bike except intake and exhaust.


Look at the changes I made in the AFR correction vs eng temp, timing and AFR.


If you load this and that is totally up to you. Load it, run the initialization and ride it and keep a eye out on your learned offsets.............

If you want just change the AFR correction vs Eng Temp and see if that helps

Looking over your Map it seems to me that you AFR is way off plus your timing.

I appreciate the map and will give it a try. Since I already made the AFR correction I'll got for a ride and see what it's like.
I want to see how your map works, so that will be next. If you still want a monitor log I could do that tomorrow. Tonight is not gonna work. Let  me know and I will PM you.

[7hogs]

not trying to take anything away from what you posted 7....but wow, you sure like timing.    

I usually put more than that on a stock bike so I was conservative on his but every bike is different. My 107" is not to far off of that and bike runs smooth and my oil temps never get above 200 unless I am traveling long distances and the temp is pushing over 95.

If the timing is to much for his bike he can reduce it if needed.

If you compare the two I took out some timing in the some of his areas. What I thought was way out of line was his AFR on his original MAP.  More timing will need less fuel.

[7hogs]

sprokett99

Send me the monitor log when you can. I am heading to the Nebraska game and will not be back until late tonight. We need to hook up on the phone and I can explain a few things a lot easier to help you through this.........

To me your AFR's look like they are a little rich.

Remember what you do will need sometime to adjust and it does not happen right away.

Do you ride 2 up and if so what is the lb's?

If you are riding 1 up most of the time and around 225 lb's that timing should be ok but you will need time to adjust your bike to the fuel curve to the changes.

[sprocket99]

sprokett99

Send me the monitor log when you can. I am heading to the Nebraska game and will not be back until late tonight. We need to hook up on the phone and I can explain a few things a lot easier to help you through this.........

To me your AFR's look like they are a little rich.

Remember what you do will need sometime to adjust and it does not happen right away.

Do you ride 2 up and if so what is the lb's?

If you are riding 1 up most of the time and around 225 lb's that timing should be ok but you will need time to adjust your bike to the fuel curve to the changes.

You should have the log sometime today. When I took the bike to Zippers I told them my mpg was around 30, so they must have leaned it out. I'm not too concerned about fuel economy, the priority is how it runs.
I ride solo, and my weight has ballooned up to 165.
Enjoy the game.

[7hogs]

What I saw was too much fuel and you should be getting 40+ per gallon. I am getting around 39 in town on a FLHXI, 107" and I am 230.


We will get her straight. More power, run smoother, cooler temps and better MPG!

[genedjr]

I am having the same issues, but with this:

2003 Road King
88" stock notor
SE A/C
SE Exhaust

I watched the videos for dealing with pop and backfire on deceleration and added the 1* to the throttle off timing.  But this had little effect.

I have the AFR set to 14 moving down to 13 from 28.6 throttle to 42.9 Throttle.

I am also getting a light surging under light loads (30 MPH in 3rd gear).

I will gladly start another post, but I was curious about the massive timing change to light throttle positions.
And ohhhh yes, I hear all this talk about detonation, but I do not know how to tell.
I have attached my current map.
...gene

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[sprocket99]

Well, I think if you have detonation you should be able to hear it ping. Someone tell me if that's incorrect. As for your other question, you'll have to wait for the experts.

[mayor]

I watched the videos for dealing with pop and backfire on deceleration and added the 1* to the throttle off timing.  But this had little effect.

you missed the most important part, advancing timing on the base timing map from 1024 to 1536 rpm's (or advancing in the light tps ranges). 

try the map I attached. Clear your learned offsets, and run the auto IAC after you initialize the map.   I adjusted the timing some and the afr.  You may want to check to see if you have the most recent firmware version on your module as well .  Your fuel offsets look kinda jerky.  I think the newest firmware makes the offsets much smoother (although I'm not positive of that). 

I have the AFR set to 14 moving down to 13 from 28.6 throttle to 42.9 Throttle.

I am also getting a light surging under light loads (30 MPH in 3rd gear).

the light surging could be from being too lean.  A couple of the fellows on this site pointed out that their T-max is reading about .6:1 afr leaner than the settings on their map.  I adjusted the afr slightly on the map I attached, but you may want to try richening your light cruise up to around 13.8:1.  Might want to wait to adjust that until after you see what the timing changes do.....

let us know how that works,
mayor

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[genedjr]

Mayor, first thanks.  I was remiss in explaining exactly what I had done.  To much scotch 

I followed the example video exactly moving the timing vs engine speed to match what I saw on the video.  The narrator said he also had a 88" engine so I figured it was a good place to start.  Then I went for a ride.  It seemed to me to be the same or worse for poping and much worse for backfiring.  So all day yesterday I tried different settings, to no avail.  All of them had significant poping and backfiring under moderate to hard decel.

I will try your map now.  It seems I do have the latest firmware as it said it was checking the internet then nothing.  I will make sure its actually loaded into the module   

Now my real question is how far can I go with timing before I go to far?  And how will I know?

I am going to go for a short ride now and see what we will see.
Thanks again Mayor!
...gene

[genedjr]

OK, here is what I did.

I checked and confirmed that I have the latest firmware and its loaded into the module.
I cleared learned fuel offsets.
I cleared learned IAC.
I loaded the map provided by Mayor.
I ran Auto IAC.
I went for a ride.

The surging and pop was the same - bad.  But I did notice alot more noise at idle and low RPM.  This may be pinging, but I am unsure as I really don't know what pinping sounds like.

Any suggestions?
...gene

[FLTRI]

.... I really don't know what pinping sounds like.

Any suggestions?
...gene

TINK-A-TINK-CA-TINK-TINK-CA-TINK!!! Sometimes loud and for long durations if the throttle is kept twisted and sometimes just a TINK-TINK then dissappears after 1/2-1 second if the throttle is kept twisted.
There ya have it......an internet text desription of detonation,
Bob

[mayor]

The surging and pop was the same - bad.  But I did notice alot more noise at idle and low RPM.  This may be pinging, but I am unsure as I really don't know what pinging sounds like.

Any suggestions?
...gene

what rpm's was surging and popping at, and around what tps?  try richening up the afr in those areas, first.  There's a few fellows on this site who have said that the T-max afr settings are generally richer than they see when compared to a dyno sniffer.  Your light tps settings at cruise is set to 14:1, so it may be over 14.6:1 and over if the widebands read .6:1 off like some suggest.


I agree with Bob's desciption of ping, furthermore pinging generally sounds like bb's hitting your front fender. The bike shouldn't be pinging at idle, since there is no load on the engine. 
You may need to let the autotune correct the fuel for the new timing.  I'll compare the map I did last night for you, to one I've been running in my 88" and see if there's anything that seems out of the norm.  My guess is you just need to ride it a little more to make sure you allowed the needed fuel adjustments to be made, but we may have to pull a little timing out of problem areas.   

Now my real question is how far can I go with timing before I go to far?  And how will I know?

that's a good question that I'm not smart enough to know, in fact I was just asking Max the same thing yesterday.  I noticed that 7hogs uses much more timing than I'm comfortable with, but that doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's doing...could be just the opposite, since I'm new to alot of this stuff myself. 


I'm running am 88" as well.  I attached my one of my most recent maps for you to compare to yours (I made some more adjustements yesterday that I wasn't able to try yet).  My build is:
'02 RK 88" w/stock heads, stock TB, Cobra true duals, se ac, and supertrapp 3" internal disc mufflers (21 discs each muffler).

this map has a little less timing than the one I did for you last night, and it doesn't surge or pop with my build (although my mufflers do muffle the sound at lower rpm's probably more than others).


so, was your firmware on your module up to date?

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[genedjr]

FLTRI and Mayor, thanks again.
I decided to work on the surging issues first.  And I think I have that solved.  At least to the point I can let autotune autotune it  

Here is that map.
The only adjustments I made were to timing vs engine speed.
...gene



[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[genedjr]

Mayor - yes the firmware is up to date.

Now the harder part.  I don't get a slight poping on decel, I get a 21 gun salute.  Its very loud, very frequent.

I am trying to add timing to the closed throttle position and lower.  For me that is 12.669 degrees.  I have made about 6 runs adding 1* of timing after each run.  There is litteraly no change.  It is really backfiring badly.

Here is the map of where I stopped.  I am going to revert back to the '6' map for now.

...gene

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[genedjr]

 
OK, I screwed up the backfire adjustments.  After re-reading this post, I am reloading the '6' map and adjusting the AFR to take fuel away (increase AFR) at the positions left of closed throttle.

...gene

[7hogs]

My popping and surges were not fixed by adding timing but by adjusting the AFR Correction vs Engine temp. No more popping or surges.


Anyone interested

[mayor]

My popping and surges were not fixed by adding timing but by adjusting the AFR Correction vs Engine temp. No more popping or surges.


Anyone interested

sure, tell us what you did, and what we should be looking for...

[7hogs]

What I have found is the relationship in the AFR Correction vs Engine Temp.

See the MAP below and I changed the timing in the lower RPM ranges.

Now if you are getting Popping and surges what I did was add fuel corrections in those ranges without touching timing and I no longer have surges or popping.

This will not happen right away and the bike needs to be rode quiet a bite. Fuel curve also needs to be in a normal operating range and you can see that using your Auto tune point analyzer.

Another thing that I have found was when you apply your learned offsets the popping and surging will come back until the auto tune has corrected it back in this areas. Why this happens I have not idea.

Once your fuel curve is good no need to apply your learned offsets and you can check that in the Auto tune Point Analyzer. If the fuel increased and decreased are under 250 you are good. Mine stays in the 100-150 range and I also set my closed loop adjustments from 20 to 25.

Now without riding each bike I cannot tell you this will completely work and you may have to add more or take away.

Also you should only run you IAC-Auto if you cannot get your idle correct. Double check the IAC offsets and if they are maxed out move that area up or down one or two steps at a time until you see that they are not maxed out anymore.

This worked for me and may not work for you but I am pretty sure that it will help.

Jim

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[7hogs]

Also guys the bike changes will take time to take affect so ride it and give it sometime.


Remember AFR Correction vs Eng Temp, AFR and IAC stop vs eng temp are all tied together and if one is off it will throw them off also.

[genedjr]

7hogs, thanks.
I am off for a couple hour ride and I will try your updates to my map.  The experiment in rasing the AFR left of the closed throttle did not seem to do anything interesting, it was a little better under mild decel, but not that much.  Hard decel still produces huge backfires.

Thanks to all of you for helping, its a bunch better now.  Hopefully with your help I can gain a better understanding of the T-Max and be able to adjust it properly when I start making real changes to the bike.
...gene

[mayor]

What I have found is the relationship in the AFR Correction vs Engine Temp.

See the MAP below and I changed the timing in the lower RPM ranges.

Now if you are getting Popping and surges what I did was add fuel corrections in those ranges without touching timing and I no longer have surges or popping.

This will not happen right away and the bike needs to be rode quiet a bite. Fuel curve also needs to be in a normal operating range and you can see that using your Auto tune point analyzer.

this is good stuff Jim.  I haven't played in this area yet, so I'm finding this very interesting.  I think I'm following what your doing, but how are you gauging how much to add?  and when would you adjust this map, over allowing the autotune correct the fuel on it's own?

here's the area we're talking about for those following along:

Gene's base map:


7hogs corrections:

[sprocket99]

I made another AFR correction, upgraded the firmware, regapped the plugs,and an hour later the rain stopped and the sun came out. (I think it was a coincidence, Jim). So I got on the bike and the first thing I noticed was there was almost no pop with the cold motor, a big change. Only got about 20 miles before the rain came back and it felt smoother. The backfire was still there at the same rpm, not as frequent, and not in 2nd gear anymore, but towards the end of the ride it seemed to go away for the most part.
One new thing, I was going downhill around 20 mph in 2nd with a slightly open throttle and there was a lot of pop. There was no time to try it again. I realize that it takes time for the system to settle in but there were some definite improvements right away.

[mayor]

sprokett99

Send me the monitor log when you can.

You should have the log sometime today.

sprocket, could you send the log to me as well?  I'm trying to follow along with what Jim is doing. if you don't mind, please send the log to me4mayor at yahoo.com

thanks,
mayor

[genedjr]

I need 30 min to let the laptop battery recharge, but I will run a log on the hour I plan to ride.

Thanks again.

BTW: How long do you normally ride before saving learned fuel settings?  I have been riding abotu 30 min between saving learned fuel settings.
...gene

[sprocket99]

sprokett99

Send me the monitor log when you can.

You should have the log sometime today.

sprocket, could you send the log to me as well?  I'm trying to follow along with what Jim is doing. if you don't mind, please send the log to me4mayor at yahoo.com

thanks,
mayor

Sent. Let me know if you didn't get it.

[mayor]

I got it.  Which map was you running when you ran the log? 

[7hogs]

I love helping people as long as it works out.

[sprocket99]

I got it.  Which map was you running when you ran the log? 

this one

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[genedjr]

Jim,
You updates to my map helped quite a bit.  At cruise the bike has never been this quite    I still have some minor poping/surging in 2nd at about 20mph (~2500 rpm).  I did not try any hard decel, just went for a ride.  BTW: I live in Colorado Springs so most of my riding is above 5K ft elevation.  So, I like this so far.  I am going to run it a week or so to see how it adjusts.

Now - the autotune point analyser is fubar.  It lists about 3 tables that it says are corrupt.  I said I needed to reload the map (which I did), but it still shows errors and all the values are zero except the top engine points.  What do I need to do?
...gene

[sprocket99]

I can't answer that question, but for info like that you can call Zippers for product support at 410-579-2100, ext. 120. Usually it's Randy. I'm not saying Jim doesn't know, but until you hear from him...

[genedjr]

Sproket, thanks - I will call in the morning.

I had the chance to get out tonight and go for a little ride.  It's amazing what you can hear at night that is just part of the white noise background during the day.

I noted before that I had what I thought was the normal harley clatter from around 1700rpm to about 2700rpm.  (I bought an autometer speedo/tach - but it broke cruise and signal canceling).  So I believe I am pretty accurate with these rpm values.

Today I also had the timing advanced enough that I would get a real ping, it was inconsistant but dramatic.  The best description I can give is a cross between a rock hitting the fender really hard and a cymbal crash. 

The reason I bring this up is that what I thought was normal harley clatter, really does sound like pinging - just not as loud or dramatic.  And the noise moved to a much more narrow rpm range, say (I have the stock speedo back on) between 2200 and 2500.  It is definately over a narrower rpm range and is quiter than before today.

So what if this is pinging?  What can I do to make sure and then how do I adjust it out?
...gene

[mayor]

So what if this is pinging?  What can I do to make sure and then how do I adjust it out?
...gene

determine where you are getting the ping and remove some timing.  Use tape on your throttle to indicate what tps your running at when it pings and determine what rpm range that it's happening, then go to your individual timing map and pull some timing out of that area.  Here's an example of marking your throttle for tps:

Hook the T-max up to your computer and mark where 14.8, 29.6, 44.3, and 59.1 deg of tps are, then take the bike for a ride and determine where your problem areas are in relation to tps.  I also use this to to set my afr per rpm map as well.   


can you post the map you're running now?

[7hogs]

Jim,
You updates to my map helped quite a bit.  At cruise the bike has never been this quite    I still have some minor poping/surging in 2nd at about 20mph (~2500 rpm).  I did not try any hard decel, just went for a ride.  BTW: I live in Colorado Springs so most of my riding is above 5K ft elevation.  So, I like this so far.  I am going to run it a week or so to see how it adjusts.

Now - the autotune point analyser is fubar.  It lists about 3 tables that it says are corrupt.  I said I needed to reload the map (which I did), but it still shows errors and all the values are zero except the top engine points.  What do I need to do?
...gene

I have never seen the situation that you are telling us about in the autotune point analyzer............... ride the bike some more and then download your learned offsets and see if you adjustments are maxed out or not and if they are give me your MAP and I will take a look at it.

[7hogs]

So what if this is pinging?  What can I do to make sure and then how do I adjust it out?
...gene


Gene,

What I saw in your MAP was too much timing at lower RPM ranges and I lowered them and if you are getting what sound like ball bearings rolling against metal and it happens all of the time you need to drop the timing at least 2-5 degrees until it goes away if you AFR is good. Too much fuel and too much timing will cause detonation. If your fuel curve is not where it needs to be it will cause issues. Lower the timing and ride the bike for a least two tanks of gas at different riding conditions including two up then send me the MAP.

Jim

7hogs@cox.net

[sprocket99]

Gene-
Just want to make sure you're using premium gas only.

[genedjr]

Thanks everyone.
I will be playing with this over the next couple of weeks.  Hopefully the weather will cooperate. 
In colorado premium gas is 91 octane and yes I always run premium.
I am running the map that Jim provided - unaltered.  It's the best so far.
I will try and narrow down exactly where I am hearing the noise and report back later.

Thanks again.
...gene

[7hogs]

Gene,

If you are getting detonation we need to get it taken care of so if you do not have a tach let me know what gear and MPH you are running and that will help.

[genedjr]

Jim, thanks.  I have the pointer for big boyz.  I will get out sometime to day to get a more accurate data.
...gene

[genedjr]

OK, so I went for a short ride to get the general information.  But most places here are very busy during the day so I plan a short ride this evening to verify my findings.

I hear the noise start at about 2100 rpm (32mph in 3rd gear) at about 16 TPS and it gets loudest at about 2350 rpm (35mph in 3rd gear) at about 20 TPS and is gone about 2500 rpm (38 mph in 3rd gear) at about 25 TPS.  After which I do hear valves and pistons sliding but the noise is gone.

Sooo - If I look at the timing, over this TPS over this RPM range,
@ 2048 RPM - timing is 34* from 16 to 22 TPS, dropping to 33* at 24 TPS to 31* at 25 TPS.
@ 2304 RPM - timing is 35* from 16 to 25 TPS
@ 2560 RPM - timing is 37* from 16 to 22 TPS, dropping to 35* at 23 TPS to 34* at 25 TPS

As you know with just tape marks to go by the TPS numbers are subject to error one way or another.  I used the big boys chart to guestimate the RPM vs speed.

So now if I understand correctly, dropping ignition by 2* across these RPM ranges and TPS positions would be the next step.  Correct?

...gene

[mayor]

So now if I understand correctly, dropping ignition by 2* across these RPM ranges and TPS positions would be the next step.  Correct?

...gene

yes, although my guess is you may end up pulling out a little more.     for you, the easiest thing to do is just drop the main timing map down, since the wot timing will probably need adjusted as well.  Here's the map you have now:


I would suggest pulling 2 degrees out at 2048 rpm, 3 degrees out at 2304 rpm, and 1 degrees out at 2584 like this:


in addition to the main timing map changes, I would pull an additional degree out of the light TPS on the individual map for 2584 from 11.261 tps to 30.968 tps (which drops that a total of two degrees in those areas)


not to take anything away from Jim's map, but I just added more timing to my 88" map, and I'm questioning if my timing is too much..... with much lower timing than your current map.  here's a reference to what I'm running in the same engine currently:

@2048 rpm timing is 31* from 14 to 19.7 tps
@2304 rpm timing is 31* from 15.4 to 21 tps
@2560 rpm timing is 33* from 16.8 to 21.1 tps

[notlost_nc]

"AFR Correction vs Engine Temp"     can someone explain what this part of the map really does ?   What does raising or lowering the settings do for me ?    Excellent thread.

[7hogs]

"AFR Correction vs Engine Temp"     can someone explain what this part of the map really does ?   What does raising or lowering the settings do for me ?    Excellent thread.

Cross between pulling out the chock when warming up and when it is warm it is like turning your idle air screw in and out.


That is my opinion only.

[7hogs]

OK, so I went for a short ride to get the general information.  But most places here are very busy during the day so I plan a short ride this evening to verify my findings.

I hear the noise start at about 2100 rpm (32mph in 3rd gear) at about 16 TPS and it gets loudest at about 2350 rpm (35mph in 3rd gear) at about 20 TPS and is gone about 2500 rpm (38 mph in 3rd gear) at about 25 TPS.  After which I do hear valves and pistons sliding but the noise is gone.

Sooo - If I look at the timing, over this TPS over this RPM range,
@ 2048 RPM - timing is 34* from 16 to 22 TPS, dropping to 33* at 24 TPS to 31* at 25 TPS.
@ 2304 RPM - timing is 35* from 16 to 25 TPS
@ 2560 RPM - timing is 37* from 16 to 22 TPS, dropping to 35* at 23 TPS to 34* at 25 TPS

As you know with just tape marks to go by the TPS numbers are subject to error one way or another.  I used the big boys chart to guestimate the RPM vs speed.

So now if I understand correctly, dropping ignition by 2* across these RPM ranges and TPS positions would be the next step.  Correct?

...gene

Drop the timing 2-3 degrees in those areas and ride it for a while and see how it is but give it a chance to adjust your AFR's this is very very important.

[7hogs]

OK, so I went for a short ride to get the general information.  But most places here are very busy during the day so I plan a short ride this evening to verify my findings.

I hear the noise start at about 2100 rpm (32mph in 3rd gear) at about 16 TPS and it gets loudest at about 2350 rpm (35mph in 3rd gear) at about 20 TPS and is gone about 2500 rpm (38 mph in 3rd gear) at about 25 TPS.  After which I do hear valves and pistons sliding but the noise is gone.

Sooo - If I look at the timing, over this TPS over this RPM range,
@ 2048 RPM - timing is 34* from 16 to 22 TPS, dropping to 33* at 24 TPS to 31* at 25 TPS.
@ 2304 RPM - timing is 35* from 16 to 25 TPS
@ 2560 RPM - timing is 37* from 16 to 22 TPS, dropping to 35* at 23 TPS to 34* at 25 TPS

As you know with just tape marks to go by the TPS numbers are subject to error one way or another.  I used the big boys chart to guestimate the RPM vs speed.

So now if I understand correctly, dropping ignition by 2* across these RPM ranges and TPS positions would be the next step.  Correct?

...gene

See revised MAP. Load it in your bike, re initialize and let me know if it is better if so make sure you ride it for a least 1-2 tanks of gas read the learned offsets and send me the MAP so I can see where it is adjusting.

[mayor]

See revised MAP.

can you attach the revised map?

[7hogs]

Crap................... It is on my laptop at home and it will have to be later today.................

Sorry 

[genedjr]

 
Well, can you tell me what you did?
While I may not understand what all the adjustments do, I do know how ot make them  

Here is what I did this morning.  I dropped the timing vs engine speed and dropped 1* across the 2048, 2306, and 2560 from one position right of 14 TPS to about 22 TPS.

...gene

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[7hogs]

Gene,

I am my office and I do not have the software on this computer but I am going home for lunch and I will get it to you then.

[genedjr]

OK - I applied this map and it helped, but did not cure the ping.  It was VERY quite until it warmed up then the noise was back.

Also it appeared that I am pretty close in the 14 TPS to 20 TPS range, but not so good over that.  So, you guys were right, there is too much timing in the map at this point.

I look forward to trying Jim's version.  Its 80 out here today, so I plan at least a 150 mile ride this afternoon.
...gene

[mayor]

Gene, have you tried anything past 59.1 tps yet on map 11?

[7hogs]

Here it is guys..............

compare and let me know I have to jet to a doctor's appointment.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[genedjr]

Gene, have you tried anything past 59.1 tps yet on map 11?

Only under excelleration.  I have done WOT from start, from 30mph, from 50mph and from 70mph.  If feels real strong.
I have not really done any testing under hard decel.  But the couple I did showed huge backfire but only at certain speeds.  I need to do more data gathering here.

I am off to try Jim's map. 
...gene

[7hogs]

Gene,

Maybe we should start a new thread since we got off of the original posters problem.

Just a thought.

[genedjr]

Good idea Jim.  Sproket99 - I hope you get yours sorted out.
...gene

[sprocket99]

Good idea Jim.  Sproket99 - I hope you get yours sorted out.
...gene

Hey, thanks for the concern. I have no problem with whatever works for you. I didn't feel hijacked, these things sometimes take on a life of their own and it turns into a learning experience for all. It was interesting for me to follow what was happening in your situation, so now I'll track your new thread. It looks like we both are getting advice that's working and that is the point.

[mgmmgm]

I have had my TMAX for 2 years. I bought the dang thing since it was supposed to ( auto tune ) . I'd rather be able to have a system that can be tuned on a dyno and be dialed in,  than to have to mess around to get things dialed in. With that said, I can appreciate the the technical skill that tmax users have, I am not a tech person. I got 1200 miles on my 103 build, and i runs worse after riding and writing learned offsets not once but twice, in 400 miles. I was thinking that it learns in a 20% margin and narrows down from there with each learned read write of offsets.

i am getting 34 mpg, changed plugs to solve sputtering sensation. No good. I would have no problem if, IF there was a tuner that was local that could dial in my Tmax - there is no one in my area that does that. I have talked to Pete at Zippers and their crew at times for help, they are helpful but after my 103 build, they suggested running the map that did not accommodate my Baisley heads, what's that about? I give up.

Hmmm, can't say that I like the pops, crackles of my D&D's and slight missing and surging in the 1-2-3rd gears 20-40 mph range.

I am heading to a TTS master tune to give that a go, it can't be worse than my tmax i have now.

Cheers

[sprocket99]

I have had my TMAX for 2 years. I bought the dang thing since it was supposed to ( auto tune ) . I'd rather be able to have a system that can be tuned on a dyno and be dialed in,  than to have to mess around to get things dialed in. With that said, I can appreciate the the technical skill that tmax users have, I am not a tech person. I got 1200 miles on my 103 build, and i runs worse after riding and writing learned offsets not once but twice, in 400 miles. I was thinking that it learns in a 20% margin and narrows down from there with each learned read write of offsets.

i am getting 34 mpg, changed plugs to solve sputtering sensation. No good. I would have no problem if, IF there was a tuner that was local that could dial in my Tmax - there is no one in my area that does that. I have talked to Pete at Zippers and their crew at times for help, they are helpful but after my 103 build, they suggested running the map that did not accommodate my Baisley heads, what's that about? I give up.

Hmmm, can't say that I like the pops, crackles of my D&D's and slight missing and surging in the 1-2-3rd gears 20-40 mph range.

I am heading to a TTS master tune to give that a go, it can't be worse than my tmax i have now.

Cheers

Granted, I am a newbie at this EFI tuning, but from what I understand both units can do pretty much the same thing. I know people who have the TMax and with the same bike setup as mine, just plugged and played. Tolerances can make a difference from bike to bike. If the person who puts your bike on a dyno isn't a top notch tuner, you'll get crap results. Won't matter what system you have. I have been working with someone at Zippers for a year now and they haven't been able to come close to the results I have now. Maybe it's their training or maybe they are restricted from making certain changes, I don't know. It's puzzling since they appear to be concerned about these issues.
If I'm wrong, please somebody set me straight. It would be a shame to waste your time and money, but that's your call.

[mayor]

I am heading to a TTS master tune to give that a go, it can't be worse than my tmax i have now.

Cheers

Granted, I am a newbie at this EFI tuning, but from what I understand both units can do pretty much the same thing. I know people who have the TMax and with the same bike setup as mine, just plugged and played. Tolerances can make a difference from bike to bike. If the person who puts your bike on a dyno isn't a top notch tuner, you'll get crap results. Won't matter what system you have. I have been working with someone at Zippers for a year now and they haven't been able to come close to the results I have now. Maybe it's their training or maybe they are restricted from making certain changes, I don't know. It's puzzling since they appear to be concerned about these issues.
If I'm wrong, please somebody set me straight. It would be a shame to waste your time and money, but that's your call.

  I agree.  I'm new to the T-max myself, but I think that it's a pretty good set up for "tweakers" to work with.  If one's goal is to have a pro-tuner tune their bike and forget it....then the TTS is probably hands down the best way to go, but I believe there is real potential of reaching a good tune using the T-max with just a basic amount of knowledge, help from fellow members of this forum, and a little bit of patience. 

I haven't spoke with Zippers tech people myself, but I've talked to a few people who have.  My guess is that they (Zippers) are inundated with calls  from people who have very little knowledge about tuning and probably most of those people didn't read the manual thoroughly enough past the install section to familarize themselves with map adjustments...so they take the easy way out by telling someone to just switch maps.  I found the last part of my statement to be true with my brother.  He had the T-max a full year before me, spoke regularly to Zippers, yet he only knew how to switch maps when I first started using the T-max. 

[7hogs]

I have had my TMAX for 2 years. I bought the dang thing since it was supposed to ( auto tune ) . I'd rather be able to have a system that can be tuned on a dyno and be dialed in,  than to have to mess around to get things dialed in. With that said, I can appreciate the the technical skill that tmax users have, I am not a tech person. I got 1200 miles on my 103 build, and i runs worse after riding and writing learned offsets not once but twice, in 400 miles. I was thinking that it learns in a 20% margin and narrows down from there with each learned read write of offsets.

i am getting 34 mpg, changed plugs to solve sputtering sensation. No good. I would have no problem if, IF there was a tuner that was local that could dial in my Tmax - there is no one in my area that does that. I have talked to Pete at Zippers and their crew at times for help, they are helpful but after my 103 build, they suggested running the map that did not accommodate my Baisley heads, what's that about? I give up.

Hmmm, can't say that I like the pops, crackles of my D&D's and slight missing and surging in the 1-2-3rd gears 20-40 mph range.

I am heading to a TTS master tune to give that a go, it can't be worse than my tmax i have now.

Cheers

Couple of questions.

Is it taking away fuel in the curves or adding.

To double check you have 1200 miles on the build and the TMAX?

Where do you live?

I just got done tuning a HAMC drag bike that would not even run off throttle and I got it up in running with in an hour the guy came to pick it up did a 30ft burn and came bike smiling from ear to ear and said it never ran like that before. Zippers said it was the TPS sensor??

I have a 107" and it get 39+ in town and 45+ on the highway and runs smmmooooooooootthh (quote from Max) and cool.

Run a monitor log to full warm up and send it to me with the MAP.

If you do not want to give it a shot that is cool and do what is best for you. That is the most important thing but it can be fixed.

[7hogs]

mmgmmgm,

Make sure your firmware and software is up to date. That makes a huge difference.

[7hogs]

Posted my MAP on a new thread

[sprocket99]

It looks like I now have a map that is making my bike run the way I would expect. I know I still have to put on some miles to see the true benefit, and there might be some adjustments in the future. Still, in the space of a few days I've gone farther than in the last 12 months and feel like I have a new machine.
gene- No problem, I'm glad your "hijacking" of my thread is working out for you  .
And much thanks to 7hog and mayor for all the help. Like the young people say, you guys rock.

[genedjr]

Sproket99 --- DUDE! great days - glad the guys could fix you up. 
...gene

[mayor]

And much thanks to 7hog and mayor for all the help. Like the young people say, you guys rock.

no need to thank me, I think Jim did most of the heavy lifting.   

It looks like I now have a map that is making my bike run the way I would expect.

can you attach a copy of your current map? 

[sprocket99]

here it is, Jim added more timing and AFT correction than the previous map and I could tell the difference right away

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]