Buell to be Discontinued

[Traveler]

Harley-Davidson Inc. said Thursday it will discontinue its Buell motorcycle brand and divest its recently acquired MV Agusta lineup as the company announced dismal third-quarter earnings.

 Harley said its third-quarter income fell 84% to $26.5 million, or 11 cents a share, from $166.5 million, or 71 cents a share a year ago. The company had $1.12 billion in sales in the quarter, down 21% from $1.42 billion in the third quarter of 2008.

In a news release, Harley said it would discontinue Buell, based in East Troy, and divest the Italian MV Agusta brand it acquired in 2008 . The Buell decision will result in the loss of about 80 manufacturing jobs in East Troy and about 100 salaried positions.

 "The fact is we must focus both our effort and our investment on the Harley-Davidson brand, as we believe this provides an opitmal path to sustained, meaningful long-term growth," CEO Keith Wandell said in the release.

This summer, a Buell 1125R bike beat Honda, Yamaha and Suzuki motorcycles to win the coveted American Motorcycle Association’s sport bike championship Sept. 8 in New Jersey.

It was the first pro championship for an American motorcycle manufacturer since 1986 and the first for Buell Motorcycle Co., which is owned by Harley- Davidson Inc.

The victory was especially sweet for company founder Erik Buell, given that his foreign competitors are much larger manufacturers with hundreds of people on their race teams. With a little luck, Buell said in a Sept. 20 Jourrnal Sentinel interview, the victory could fuel the company's sales, -- which are tiny compared with Harley- Davidson and its Japanese competitors.

The company, founded in a barn in Mukwonago 26 years ago, has struggled in the recession.

This summer, Harley executives dropped plans for a $10 million Buell facility in the East Troy Business Park, saying they had taken a fresh look at the plans and decided the timing was wrong.

The cancellation was a last-minute decision that caught some by surprise, including Erik Buell.

"I was surprised they waited that long, quite frankly, because I was looking at the economic conditions and wondering if we were ready for it," he said in the interview. 

[frito1]

Hear it from Erik here  http://www.buell.com/en_us/

It figures, I just bought a Uly XT.  At least I got it cheap, I'd really be sick if I had bought a new one and was under several years of payments.

[hotroadking]

too bad
Buell was a long time coming,
and helped bring younger riders in.


Wow watched the link, if you don't think "corporate" people get hit hard when things
go bad check out Erik's video man he barely held it together. 

When you put 20+ years of your life into something

That sucks, my bet is the sportbike world is in trouble anyway
can't get financing, kids can't get insurance so they can't finance new bikes.....

Market forces, maybe they'll mothball it and come back...

Maybe someone will buy it up...

maybe someday...

[ederdelyi]

Yep, it's a shame this happened. But, HD and it's mindset is running true to form. IMO they need more folks that think like Eric and fewer that think like Willie G. ... either way there's nothing in the current HD product line that interests me. The one and only HD that was in my stable is gone and I won't be replacing it. I'm sure that HD will survive, but it won't be off of my dollars.

[nidan]

Just as they were finally getting competitive , sad to see .

Hopefully Erik will be able to do something innovative in the future.

[jimrookie]

To me this is sad .always thoght that they should have let Erik have his way with the VROD engine.

[4DWUDS]

Looks like now all those extra Buell parts in my garage are worth a little more than scrap aluminum.

[1JITSU1]

Very sad what is happening in this country   
JITSU

[HarleyFranco]

The Buell decision will result in the loss of about 80 manufacturing jobs in East Troy and about 100 salaried positions.

This to me says it all.  When you have 100 managers and only 80 workers, something is wrong.

Frank

[ch308]

Yep, it's a shame this happened. But, HD and it's mindset is running true to form. IMO they need more folks that think like Eric and fewer that think like Willie G. ... either way there's nothing in the current HD product line that interests me. The one and only HD that was in my stable is gone and I won't be replacing it. I'm sure that HD will survive, but it won't be off of my dollars.

Agree 

[1JITSU1]

The Buell decision will result in the loss of about 80 manufacturing jobs in East Troy and about 100 salaried positions.

This to me says it all.  When you have 100 managers and only 80 workers, something is wrong.

Frank

Frank my friend everyone has to eat

JITSU

[Big Dan]

I hope every imported sport bike in America runs off a cliff.

[HV]

Looking at it from a Dealer side... Im surprised that the Buell lasted this long...they just do not sell......yes the 1125s are better...but what class of bike do they fit in ?? slow for a sport bike ... handle good...but still cant keep up with a 4 cyl Jap bike .... look for the V Rods to go next... if it is not selling...its gotta GO... Im also surprised that the Trikes are still around ...

[HarleyFranco]

JITSU,

I understand everyone needs to make a living, but you don't need an over abundance of managers.  

Frank

[1JITSU1]

I hope every imported sport bike in America runs off a cliff.

DIDO Big Dan and everywere in the world  F T W
JITSU

[tomcat64]

Looking at it from a Dealer side... Im surprised that the Buell lasted this long...they just do not sell......yes the 1125s are better...but what class of bike do they fit in ?? slow for a sport bike ... handle good...but still cant keep up with a 4 cyl Jap bike .... look for the V Rods to go next... if it is not selling...its gotta GO... Im also surprised that the Trikes are still around ...

i don't get the trike comment we are still sitting on a year wait for the tri-glide,,,

t-c

[CraigArizona85248]

JITSU,

I understand everyone needs to make a living, but you don't need an over abundance of managers.  

Frank

Salaried positions are not all "managers".  There is a lot of engineering that goes into building sport bikes.  Then there is sales and marketing, branding, legal, etc.  Those are all typically salaried positions.  The real problem is that there was only enough demand to support 80 manufacturing positions.  If they'd had more demand for product, they would of had more then 80 manufacturing jobs.

It was hard to watch Erik Buell's video message.  Obviously a tough day for him and the company he started.

-Craig

[02rk59]

Crap!!!!!!!!   I just finally made up my mind to buy a Uly!

[guitar sam]

the days of the Sports bikes are nearing an end just like the muscle cars of the 60s did.  young people could not get insurance.  pollution devices, limited the horsepower.  the young kids (like we once were) love the performance of the jap bikes.  i very rarely see a buell.  it was just a matter of time.

seen a story on martin guitars, they are going on 200 years now.  been thru every depression imaginable.  what they did was make a less expensive model, kept the quality, but did not have the fancy finishes and inlays, etc.  playes perfect.  but no gingerbread.

maybe hd could take note of this.  in the sixties they only had a few models, 2 models of sportsters, and electa glide and the super glide.  they also had some italian sprint bikes sitting around, but maybe making a touring model, a few softails, and one or two sportsters (lose the 883).  they could sell the bikes for less and more people would be working to make them.  but then again martin is a family owned company who treats their employees like family.

side bar= my son works for paul reed smith and he treats his workers like family too.  i am sure they pay him back.

[speed limit]

 

[Princess Butt]

Harley will stop production of Buell, but you can bet they're not going to let go of any of the intellectual property rights, such as patents, trademarks, and names. This stuff doesn't cost much to maintain. If and when the market picks up again, it's much easier to start up when you have all this stuff.

I often wondered about Buell. I don't think they caught on like they should because the first big selling bikes, the S- series, had problems with the rear suspension. They seemed to get that sorted out with a redesign, but they're the kind of motorcycle people appreciate when they get a little older and more experienced. They weren't competing against 600 cc sportbikes; they're competing against Ducati, BMW, Triumph, and the upper end Japanese sportbikes.

Expect to see the model lines trimmed with an ongoing recession. We're going to feel this one for a while, and it's going to affect consumer spending for a long time.

BnEUC

[hotroadking]

Also remember

Sport bikes are very very very very very expensive to insure

an 18 year old on a liter bike can pay more per month in insurance than payments on the bike.

With the dried up financial market, kids can't put 600 cc bikes on credit cards anymore to
get around insurance (in fl you are not required to insure your motorcycle)

Only lenders make you insure them...

No insurance no finance no sale...

I think Buell was always behind the curve in that market, ahead for HD but behind on product

They should have been focused on high powered water cooled touring and sport touring aka beemers vs
kiddo racing toys... 

JMO

[2glides]

Looks like MV agusta is gone too........



http://www.jsonline.com/business/64352232.html

2glides

[codyshop]

I absolutely hate to see the jobs lost.  On the other hand, this should be no surprise for while the Buell line was innovative (for HD), the dealerships hated them.  They hated them on the floor and they hated working on them.  When you are literally told, "you don't want that kiddie crap, buy this Road King instead" by your typical HD salesperson the line was doomed to fail.  What they should have done is simply allowed Buells to be sold in multi-lines (ie:  Joe's Suzuki / Buell, etc.) and not in HD dealerships.  There were simply too many potential customers who would have bought the bike but wouldn't be caught dead walking into an HD dealership.  Just my two (after the fact) bits.  Ray

[autoworker]

The dealers didn't help Buell's problems gaining matket share.I tried to buy one three different times starting in the latter 90's.Had to walk away each time due to their attitudes.
Sorry to see them go.

[Biscuit]

That was my first bike.  Everyone tried to make me feel better about it, by saying it was an
H-D.  The Buell Blast is what I learned on.

[bighog]

This is bad stuff. I always did  like em. Just not enough to buy one. Guess that's the problem. Another sign of the economey

[CDeucer]

  Sad situation all around. Maybe Harley-Davidson should replace Willie G. in the corporate hierarchy with Erik Buell so they can finally make a new bike that is better than my "02".

[mark61]

Keep looking and you will find HD is spending 10s of millions of dollars-some reports say $100M- to kill Buell and all contracts/patents, etc....   Must be nice to have that kind of money to flush something down the toilet just because there might be some competition in sales.......Dunder headed AMF days are here again!

I think Willie G. is less responsible than the white collar greed mongers running the company. Or should we say RUINING the company?

mark61

[PC_Hater]

It is very sad that HD are killing off Buell.
I found Buells to tall and too twitchy for my liking but I would have loved to have seen Buell technology on a Sportster, the lovely ZTL front end, oil in the swingarm, fuel in the frame. And what do HD make? That ugly heavy XR1200.

Come to think of it, that ZTL front end would be good and any HD.
The video of Erik was painful to watch.

[HV]

It is a sad day... the closing of any company is a bad sign of the economy and things to come...I was at a Buell course a few years back ..put on by one of the Buell engineers... very smart guy ....taught me a lot... hope he gets through this OK... a great loss of good people...

[truck]

 and divest its recently acquired MV Agusta lineup

What the hell does that mean?
We made a huge frigging mistake?

[Jeffd]

hey were is Tim Geithner when we need him?

[HV]

Remember that not long ago the CEO of HD Retired and a new guy took over... thats not exactly a Riding type... more of a Corp Business manager... = what happened in the AMF Days... 

[dakota224]

Without Willie G Davidson the Motor company would have folded many years ago..  

[truck]

Do you think Harley will become another Indian?
Could happen, don't you think?

[Jeffd]

Do you think Harley will become another Indian?
Could happen, don't you think?

I would say no.  Way different times.

[FLTRI]

.....what happened in the AMF Days... 

They poured huge amounts of cash into a failing, inadequately managed and antiquated business making unreliable oil-leaking motorcycles.
Had they actually taken the MOCO's management over they would have realized what they were investing in. They possibly would have made production, inventory, and worker changes that maybe would have kept the ball rolling.
JMO,
Bob

[hd06myway]

Buell never brought in that many young riders, they want REAL FAST bikes, like Yamaha R6's a 600cc bike that'll spank a Buell at almost half the price.  .  Buell was never a fast bike by sport bike standards, it had no competition or market. Don't be surprised if the V-Rod as we know it is gone too before long.  If HD wants a young market, then make a bike to compete with the YAMAH R's and Kawi Z's.... it's not rocker science.

[Jeffd]

Buell never brought in that many young riders, they want REAL FAST bikes, like Yamaha R6's a 600cc bike that'll spank a Buell at almost half the price.  .  Buell was never a fast bike by sport bike standards, it had no competition or market. Don't be surprised if the V-Rod as we know it is gone too before long.  If HD wants a young market, then make a bike to compete with the YAMAH R's and Kawi Z's.... it's not rocker science.

BMW finally saw the light and is coming out with an all out sport bike aimed at the R1 and GSXR, it makes more power, is lighter and a good price point.  I think they had to go to China to do it tho.

[RK101]

    http://www.buell.com/en_us/

[Clintster]

Sorry Mr. Buell, you should proud of what you accomplished, sad to see your motorcycle company close down.  Hopefully there will be a Uly available when I can afford another motorcycle.  In this climate and with current obligation it should be a few years.  I wish other Americans had purchased your machines, a sad day indeed...

[rocket]

Bought a Buell in 2000 after a couple Hondas still have it and still love it only reason I bought a Harley T-Sport in 2003.  Think Harley is going in the wrong direction.  Some still want a little performance rather then just looks.

[jimrookie]

  I think the factory management is full of posers who have forgot who the customer is and what we want and until they remember it will not get any better

[PaJoe]

.....what happened in the AMF Days... 

They poured huge amounts of cash into a failing, inadequately managed and antiquated business making unreliable oil-leaking motorcycles.
Had they actually taken the MOCO's management over they would have realized what they were investing in. They possibly would have made production, inventory, and worker changes that maybe would have kept the ball rolling.
JMO,
Bob

I don't know the history but remember an old time Harley rider saying AMF was responsible for the York Pa plant as well as the EVO engine, he further claimed it was the EVO engine that saved Harley because it was dependable.

[Deye76]

Concerning young riders. They can't even think of motorcycles when there are no jobs.

[CraigArizona85248]

I don't know the history but remember an old time Harley rider saying AMF was responsible for the York Pa plant as well as the EVO engine, he further claimed it was the EVO engine that saved Harley because it was dependable.

That's true.  AMF is responsible for the EVO design.  They started that project before H-D got rid of the AMF name.  I'm not sure if the EVO saved H-D, but it certainly gave them a big boost.  AMF did H-D a huge favor by floating them for 10+ years and getting them up to speed on modern manufacturing.  If AMF hadn't given them an influx of cash, H-D would have probably gone belly up in the early 1970's.  The late 1960's were terrible times for H-D financially.  They were losing money at an alarming rate.

-Craig

[Jeffd]

I don't know the history but remember an old time Harley rider saying AMF was responsible for the York Pa plant as well as the EVO engine, he further claimed it was the EVO engine that saved Harley because it was dependable.

That's true.  AMF is responsible for the EVO design.  They started that project before H-D got rid of the AMF name.  I'm not sure if the EVO saved H-D, but it certainly gave them a big boost.  AMF did H-D a huge favor by floating them for 10+ years and getting them up to speed on modern manufacturing.  If AMF hadn't given them an influx of cash, H-D would have probably gone belly up in the early 1970's.  The late 1960's were terrible times for H-D financially.  They were losing money at an alarming rate.

-Craig

I thought government intervention saved harley?  remember the tariffs on bikes over 700cc's.  maybe BO should do the same for Buell.  no imported sportbike with more than 80hp hmmmm.

[JohnCA58]

Pres. Reagan was a piece of the pie, and it helped.  but that didnt save the Co. 

[CraigArizona85248]

Good point Jeff!  I guess, my thinking was related to the early 70's.  If AMF hadn't stepped in, they would have been gone way back then.  But I think you are correct that the government tariffs helped H-D get their footing in the early/mid 80's.  The tariffs were as important a part of their their recovery as the EVO.

-Craig

[Scooterfish]

[/quote]

I don't know the history but remember an old time Harley rider saying AMF was responsible for the York Pa plant as well as the EVO engine, he further claimed it was the EVO engine that saved Harley because it was dependable.
[/quote]

The AMF days were both good & bad. There were union/ management problems which resulted in quality problems. AMF did fund the development of the EVO engine which did bring Harley back when management did the private buy out which come down to the wire on financing. I had a 1974 Sportster & a 1977 superglide although they had their "personalities" I never had any big issues.

[drs23]

Just left the dealership. 1125R, $6995, any other on the floor $5000. Guess the price plummets before the collector prices emerge.

[smokey3644]

I've been waiting for my closest dealer to get a 2010 uly xt in stock, now I don't know if I'll see one.  I think I'm still going to buy one if I can find one, they are selling a 2010 uly x at the dealership for 7,999, three K below list.  I read the minutes of Harleys third quarter meeting yesterday, they say they are going to improved and build on the brand HD and go after the 35 and under rider?  I smell a rat here, maybe Buel inspired street bikes in the near future with the Harley name on them.  

[Big Dan]

 I smell a rat here, maybe Buel inspired street bikes in the near future with the Harley name on them.  

And built outside the U. S. A. Link: http://www.jsonline.com/business/64352232.html

Perhaps in the MV plants they recently acquired?

[vern]

they should dump the v rod what a piece of crap

[mark61]

MV  over there in Italy is and always has been a money pit. The guy who designs the bike -Gustavo?- is a genius for race bikes but the company and work place is supposed to be 10 times worse than the worse "union" outfit you ever heard about here. Always been told/ read that atleast.

mark61

[CDeucer]

  I disagree with dumping the V-Rod. It is a great motor wether you like the styling or not. Put a tweaked bagger style V-Rod motor in the new Road Glide frame and get out of my way 'cause I'm coming through! Been waiting a long time tho....... The Night-Rod Special ain't too shabby either for a second bike. IMO 

[CDeucer]

  I do not know wether AMF saved Harley or not. What I do know is that I bought a brand new AMF 1974, 1200 Super Glide that was the biggest piece of crap ever made. Bad brakes, wouldn't start, caught on fire, oil pump went out on way home from the dealer, etc. I fixed it. I chopped it before the warranty was even out and added a Sportster tank, 10" over springer front end with a no brake front wheel and Z-bars and a king & queen seat and high spiked sissy bar. Really made a piece of crap out of it. Looked cool tho! Traded it in on a four door Chevy Caprice and swore off Harleys............for awhile!

[Glenn W]

JITSU,

I understand everyone needs to make a living, but you don't need an over abundance of managers.  

Frank

Salaried positions are not all "managers".  There is a lot of engineering that goes into building sport bikes.  Then there is sales and marketing, branding, legal, etc.  Those are all typically salaried positions.  The real problem is that there was only enough demand to support 80 manufacturing positions.  If they'd had more demand for product, they would of had more then 80 manufacturing jobs.
bing bing bing-we have a winner. The co. wasn't top-heavy. 100 persons is very lean for an entire corporate setup the size of Buell Mfg. The problem was that sales were so slow that they only needed 80 persons to build enough product to have some left over. People just didn't buy enough Buells, despite the Harley/American connection. Had they been made in Mexico they would have been gone a long time ago. H-D bled pretty good keeping them as a pet project;

Excerpt From the Milwaukee Business Journal in regards to the Buell brand investments by HD:

Wandell said that the company intends to reinvest capital that would have gone into the Buell brand into the Harley-Davidson brand. The corporation made a $6.6 million capital investment in Buell last year and a $4 million investment so far this year. In return, the brand lost $18 million in 2008 and $27 million so far in 2009, including the $14.2 million impairment charge, he said.

Those dollars will be better spent on the key Harley-Davidson brand, Wandell said, despite the fact that he still believes Buell is a “great product” with “passionate employees.”

Wandell said the Buell brand wasn’t put on the selling block, like MV Agusta, because it was too integrated with Harley-Davidson’s operations. MV Agusta, on the other hand, was still quite independent from Harley-Davidson.
It was hard to watch Erik Buell's video message.  Obviously a tough day for him and the company he started.

[deathwish]

these MOCO people are idiots. The MOCO needs more diverse models not less. MV Agusta is what they needed. Take the brand and get it in the showrooms. Buell I thought would be gone when the purchased MV. But think about it. How many years did it take to get a Sportster engine out of the Buell. What do they expect? They had plenty  of time to develop an engine get decent sales. You don't always have to be a race winner. Look at Triumph today. This company should be ashamed to call themselves "The Motor Company" when they develop nothing. I have several T shirts that say "the Motor Company" on them I I used a magic marker to put "The X Motor Company" . I can't be that hard to look at the best sport bike engines built today and take the best of the designs and put them together in one working package and put it into a Buell or MV. Sure you kindof copy this or that but what is really new anyway. They can't get my money either because I can build a better bike with aftermarket parts than HD can do with thier parts.

[Deye76]

  I disagree with dumping the V-Rod. It is a great motor wether you like the styling or not. Put a tweaked bagger style V-Rod motor in the new Road Glide frame and get out of my way 'cause I'm coming through! Been waiting a long time tho....... The Night-Rod Special ain't too shabby either for a second bike. IMO 

I would be right beside you.
And if I wasn't a fat azz old fart, I'd have a Buell. I still love the old design, but am open minded enough to know great innovation when I see it.  

[4DWUDS]

How about a Buell E-Glide

[PoorUB]

these MOCO people are idiots. The MOCO needs more diverse models not less. MV Agusta is what they needed.

Not sue if I agree about you take on MV Augusta.
Save the Buell line, BUT, get rid of the pumped up Sporty engine and go with something else. I really thought that HD/Buell would take the Rotax engine farther into the line up. IMO the Rotax engine was the engine that should have been in the Buell line up from the start. I never could understand dumping basically a 40 year old engine design in a modern frame. The buyers of sport bikes laughed at  the concept. I might have bought a Buell years ago if they had a decent power plant. When you have 600 CC sport bikes turning 125 HP and 1000 CC mills with 160 HP, and Buell had, what 100HP?   Your typical HD buyer did not buy Buell because they were a sport bike. Sport biker riders did not buy them because they had a 40 year old 100 HP engine in them. In other words nobody bought them, at least in the numbers required to keep them afloat.

[PoorUB]

How about a Buell E-Glide

Proof thay beauty is in the eyes ofthe beholder!

[Jeffd]

How about a Buell E-Glide

Proof thay beauty is in the eyes ofthe beholder!

who said anything about it being beautiful LOL

[4DWUDS]

Proof thay beauty is in the eyes ofthe beholder!........ and all this time I thought it was BEERholder. 

[codyshop]

How about a Buell E-Glide

As of this morning, '10 Buells are beind dumped for pennies on the dollar at the dealerships.  I may even try that!  Ray

[Ultrashovel]

Yep, it's a shame this happened. But, HD and it's mindset is running true to form. IMO they need more folks that think like Eric and fewer that think like Willie G. ... either way there's nothing in the current HD product line that interests me. The one and only HD that was in my stable is gone and I won't be replacing it. I'm sure that HD will survive, but it won't be off of my dollars.

Buell was never in sync with the regular Harley Market. Buell never sold all that well in the first place. Many dealers dropped the line years ago because the typical customer who wants a Harley doesn't want a Buell. These are hard times for HD beause of the overall economic picture as everyone knows. Ending Buell production is an understandable business decision that should have happened several years ago. It was inevitable under these circumstances.

So it's a Japanese or Italian bike for you....Enjoy!      

[Ultrashovel]

these MOCO people are idiots. The MOCO needs more diverse models not less. MV Agusta is what they needed.

Not sue if I agree about you take on MV Augusta.
Save the Buell line, BUT, get rid of the pumped up Sporty engine and go with something else. I really thought that HD/Buell would take the Rotax engine farther into the line up. IMO the Rotax engine was the engine that should have been in the Buell line up from the start. I never could understand dumping basically a 40 year old engine design in a modern frame. The buyers of sport bikes laughed at  the concept. I might have bought a Buell years ago if they had a decent power plant. When you have 600 CC sport bikes turning 125 HP and 1000 CC mills with 160 HP, and Buell had, what 100HP?   Your typical HD buyer did not buy Buell because they were a sport bike. Sport biker riders did not buy them because they had a 40 year old 100 HP engine in them. In other words nobody bought them, at least in the numbers required to keep them afloat.

All good points. Buell was taking on the sport bike market with 50-60 less horsepower. They were well-built but underpowered for the sportbike market.

[ederdelyi]

>>So it's a Japanese or Italian bike for you....Enjoy!<<

I ain't no Jay Leno, but most folks who know me from the TC forum know I have a fairly large collection of bikes, cars, and boats. It's a shame that there is no American made motorcycle in my stable any longer. The one HD I considered a "keeper" met an untimely end and since it's no longer made and I only buy/ride what truly fits my riding needs and style it won't be replaced. I truly would love to have an American made bike that is the equal of some of the other bikes I own and will keep until they spread my ashes at sea ...I ain't holding my breath :>)

[Ultrashovel]

>>So it's a Japanese or Italian bike for you....Enjoy!<<

I ain't no Jay Leno, but most folks who know me from the TC forum know I have a fairly large collection of bikes, cars, and boats. It's a shame that there is no American made motorcycle in my stable any longer. The one HD I considered a "keeper" met an untimely end and since it's no longer made and I only buy/ride what truly fits my riding needs and style it won't be replaced. I truly would love to have an American made bike that is the equal of some of the other bikes I own and will keep until they spread my ashes at sea ...I ain't holding my breath :>)

Well, that's fine. It's nice to have a lot of bikes. I only have one and it suits my needs. If a Harley doesn't suit you, then ride something else. It's just that I don't feel right on anything else. I also don't need to go 150 mph. It's not my style.

As far as Willie G, if you check, the present-day Harleys really haven't changed their basic motiff all that much in the past few years. I doubt he really has all that much influence anymore. He's a fixture as far as I can tell. He had a lot to do with the V-Rod but I'm not buying one of those either.

You should take a look at Victory. They are rather nice. It might be a good alternative for you.

[ederdelyi]

>>You should take a look at Victory. They are rather nice. It might be a good alternative for you. <<

No, thanks. My HD was an FXDX ... about the sportiest recent bike that HD made. Both it and the FXDXT were axed. Ask the folks who own either of those bikes or an FXR owner why they liked and own/keep them. I considered the 1125R and the Uly as viable additions to the stable but just never pulled the trigger as I had other irons in the fire ... oh, well. I can only ride/drive one at a time anyway.

[Jim B.]

  I disagree with dumping the V-Rod. It is a great motor wether you like the styling or not. Put a tweaked bagger style V-Rod motor in the new Road Glide frame and get out of my way 'cause I'm coming through! Been waiting a long time tho....... The Night-Rod Special ain't too shabby either for a second bike. IMO 

I'll be in line with you. Wish my 09 Road Glide had a tour tuned v-rod. Saw a V-Rod at Las Vegas Bike Fest that had a Road Glide style fairing and saddlebags. Nice looking bike. And boloney to all those people who say that putting a water cooled engine in a touring bike will result in the bike being covered in plastic like a Goldwing. The v-rod shows that a water cooled engine can be just as exposed as an air cooled engine.

[ederdelyi]

>>And boloney to all those people who say that putting a water cooled engine in a touring bike will result in the bike being covered in plastic like a Goldwing. The v-rod shows that a water cooled engine can be just as exposed as an air cooled engine.<<

The big problem for HD is that a V-rod based touring bike (even with the engine "optimized" for  touring) is that it will require a new frame to take full advantage of the motor and for it to look "right". In the early stages of V-Rod development HD tried putting the Revolution motor in an existing chassis ... it didn't cut it. IMO, if the Revolution motor had been inntroduced in a model like the FXDX and FXDXT it would have been a much better product launch. Lots of folks who feel as I do about what a bike should be feel the same. Not all of us "old farts" want a '59 Caddy ... some of us drive Vettes :>)
As for the Revolution in a Buell ... too big and heavy. The Rotax motor was the motor that the Buells should have had from the git go ... too bad it took Erik so long to convince the mothership that his creations needed something other than a warmed over Sportster engine. I feel for the entire Buell staff and for Erik ..darn shame.

[codyshop]

I think the final nail in Buell's coffin was that even after all the R&D dollars, foreign powerplant and media hype, the 1125R barely beat everyone else's 600's in AMA races.  I would have hated to be Erik Buell at that morning's board of directors' meeting.  Ray

[ederdelyi]

Probably true. Can't help but think that there was still a lot of HD influence that limited what the powerplant parameters ended up being. It's possible to make a V-Twin competitive ... others have done it. If you are not gonna do what everyone else is doing then it's gonna take some real talent, innovation, and dedication to be truly competitive in a level playing field. I just don't see HD doing that ... right, wrong, or indifferent they want it their way or they won't play.
One thing is for sure, it''ll be interesting to see how it all plays out and who gets to say "i told you so"... as if that really matters. :>)

EDIT: Kind of the same problems that haunted the VR1000 racing program ... you can't play in that arena with a half hearted approach. It's max efffort or get the Hell out of the way!

[Ultrashovel]

Probably true. Can't help but think that there was still a lot of HD influence that limited what the powerplant parameters ended up being. It's possible to make a V-Twin competitive ... others have done it. If you are not gonna do what everyone else is doing then it's gonna take some real talent, innovation, and dedication to be truly competitive in a level playing field. I just don't see HD doing that ... right, wrong, or indifferent they want it their way or they won't play.
One thing is for sure, it''ll be interesting to see how it all plays out and who gets to say "i told you so"... as if that really matters. :>)

EDIT: Kind of the same problems that haunted the VR1000 racing program ... you can't play in that arena with a half hearted approach. It's max efffort or get the Hell out of the way!

Don't mean to contradict, but if you look at the History of the VR1000, there was nothing half-hearted about the approach. It was a purpose-built machine. It just wasn't as fast and didn't handle as well and didn't have the gross horsepower of the big four contenders in that class. It was a a nice try but no cigar. Obviously I never got to ride one but I looked closely at one at Laughlin, NV about ten years ago it was evident that they were a bit on the heavy side, too. That and the other difficulties, and one can see why they never hit pay dirt.

Harley spent millions doing that program and, at the end, it got them a lot of advertising and little else.

It's ironic that in dirt track racing, the 1970's XR-1000 is still competitive. Gio figure.

[ederdelyi]

Well, if one is going to step into the arena with the likes of the Honda, Aprillia, Ducati, Yamaha, Ferrari, MacLarens , etc. of the world, you better bring more than just money. Our government has proved time and again that throwing money at things doesn't solve problems. IMO, HD never went at it with the dedication or commitment of their competition. There was a lot of politics that crippled that program just like the politics that ultimately killed Buell. Sorry, but I am not one to give blind allegience to anyone or anything. I gain respect in this world by my actions and deeds ... it should be no different for anyone or any orginization/corporation.

We obviously have different opinions ... I'm okay with agreeing to disagree.

[Ultrashovel]

Well, if one is going to step into the arena with the likes of the Honda, Aprillia, Ducati, Yamaha, Ferrari, MacLarens , etc. of the world, you better bring more than just money. Our government has proved time and again that throwing money at things doesn't solve problems. IMO, HD never went at it with the dedication or commitment of their competition. There was a lot of politics that crippled that program just like the politics that ultimately killed Buell. Sorry, but I am not one to give blind allegience to anyone or anything. I gain respect in this world by my actions and deeds ... it should be no different for anyone or any orginization/corporation.

We obviously have different opinions ... I'm okay with agreeing to disagree.

We're not really that far apart. What you call lack of dedication and commitment, I think was simply naivete on Harley's part. They went into the modern era of road racing without fully understanding it.

I agree on the politics. Take Flat Track racing for example. It's the same politics with the AMA and other related groups that crippled and has basically destroyed track racing, especially the Mile Race series. Nowadays, you could probably enter a motorized wheel chair and no one would notice since they change the rules most every year.

As to blind allegience, I understand that you don't have blind allegiance, nor do I. I have a bum leg. That's only relevant to this discussion because I like to have a sidecar around. The only company that makes one that suits me is Harley-Davidson. They fit, they match and they ride, handle and look nice. I can ride solo and I do from time to time but the sidecar makes things easy for me. Other big bikes can haul a sidecar, but they have to be cobbled together from various sources whereas mine was a turnkey operation.

No, it's far from blind allegiance. It's all of the friends I've made and places I've gone, the nice memories, the great conversations I've had...and this is one of them, by the way, that make me want to have a Harley around.

Don't forget as well, that of all of the bikes, Harley is the easiest of all to work on yourself. That's a fact. I look at the wonderful, imported modern overhead cam engines that turn 12K + rpm and then I think about what it would be like to tear into one and it makes my back ache just thinking about it. You can even get discount parts for Harleys too, and there's an incredible extended aftermarket. Virtually all of the imports have very high parts prices and much less aftermarket than HD does.

So. if you no longer like what HD does, it's fine. Don't give up on them when they're down, though. Someday, they may make one that you like. LOL.

[FLTRI]

As to blind allegiance, I understand that you don't have blind allegiance, nor do I. I have a bum leg. That's only relevant to this discussion because I like to have a sidecar around. The only company that makes one that suits me is Harley-Davidson. They fit, they match and they ride, handle and look nice. I can ride solo and I do from time to time but the sidecar makes things easy for me. Other big bikes can haul a sidecar, but they have to be cobbled together from various sources whereas mine was a turnkey operation.

No, it's far from blind allegiance. It's all of the friends I've made and places I've gone, the nice memories, the great conversations I've had...and this is one of them, by the way, that make me want to have a Harley around.

Don't forget as well, that of all of the bikes, Harley is the easiest of all to work on yourself. That's a fact. I look at the wonderful, imported modern overhead cam engines that turn 12K + rpm and then I think about what it would be like to tear into one and it makes my back ache just thinking about it. You can even get discount parts for Harleys too, and there's an incredible extended aftermarket. Virtually all of the imports have very high parts prices and much less aftermarket than HD does.

So. if you no longer like what HD does, it's fine. Don't give up on them when they're down, though. Someday, they may make one that you like. LOL.

All I can say to what you've just expressed is: 
I believe this has been key to the allegiance, blind or open eyed, to the HD v-twin, not its performance compared to its competition. That is prolly changing now due to younger, more aggressive attitudes out on the streets thinking about what bike they want to buy.
I also believe a retro 59 caddy with a 502 big block is fun to drive, especially with updated Corvette suspension mods. .
Bob

[ederdelyi]

>> also believe a retro 59 caddy with a 502 big block is fun to drive, especially with updated Corvette suspension mods<<

Yep, and some think that a Ferrari motor in a garbage truck is cool too :>)

It's all about choice and what each of us percieves as what is "good" or "bad". I don't expect others to agree with my choices and I don't try to make others conform to my likes and dislikes ... all I expect is the same in return. Stuff like this,  there is no "right" or "wrong", but what works for you, whatever the reason(s) may be. If you want to worship Mr. Potato Head while howling at the moon in your underwear that's O.K. with me! Just don't expect me to join in or agree with your choice :>)

While I think it is more than sad that HD pulled the plug on Buell, considering the mindset of past and present HD management it was likely the right move as they were never going to dedicate the resources or freedom to develop the bikes to what they could have been ... In My Opinion.

[FLTRI]

Yep, and some think that a Ferrari motor in a garbage truck is cool too :>)

Yea but what do they know? They should know a Ferrari motor doesn't produce enough torque to move a garbage truck. LOL! OK, maybe after a specially developed tranny/diff.
There's a reason there are high performance Caddy's, MBZ's, BMW's, etc....even pick-ups.
Not everyone can get their family and tent in a Vette.
Bob

[Ultrashovel]

>> also believe a retro 59 caddy with a 502 big block is fun to drive, especially with updated Corvette suspension mods<<

Yep, and some think that a Ferrari motor in a garbage truck is cool too :>)

It's all about choice and what each of us percieves as what is "good" or "bad". I don't expect others to agree with my choices and I don't try to make others conform to my likes and dislikes ... all I expect is the same in return. Stuff like this,  there is no "right" or "wrong", but what works for you, whatever the reason(s) may be. If you want to worship Mr. Potato Head while howling at the moon in your underwear that's O.K. with me! Just don't expect me to join in or agree with your choice :>)

While I think it is more than sad that HD pulled the plug on Buell, considering the mindset of past and present HD management it was likely the right move as they were never going to dedicate the resources or freedom to develop the bikes to what they could have been ... In My Opinion.

Removing Buell is just a business decision in a difficult time. They never sold very well, nice as they were. The dealers didn't like them and never went out of their way to understand them.

As far as changing Buells, well, there's always the V-Rod. That is rather like a highly-modified Buell. They didn't sell very well, either and resale on them is not good at all. Harley, God love 'em, just doesn't understand the sport bike market so it's pretty clear that they should stay clear of it.

Since you have used the term mindset, Harley's mindset right now is to stay in business and avoid the difficulties of the 1980's when they very nearly went out of business.

[ederdelyi]

Last post here, I promise :>)

>>Removing Buell is just a business decision in a difficult time. They never sold very well, nice as they were. The dealers didn't like them and never went out of their way to understand them.<<

Well, since they failed to understand the market in the first place (as you point out) and completely mis-understood how the dealer network should have been approached ... what did they expect? If you want to change the game you better have the product and tools in place to do it ... they didn't.

>>As far as changing Buells, well, there's always the V-Rod. That is rather like a highly-modified Buell. They didn't sell very well, either and resale on them is not good at all.<<

Not even close to a Buell or any other MC "type". Good motor in a chassis that doesn't do much of anything well. As I always told my product engineers ... "It doesn't matter if we think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, if it is not marketable it's worse than worthless". Resale? Vehicles are not investments, IMO. I don't expect to get much for a used toaster ... use it til it can't be fixed anymore and dump it or bronze the sucker and admire it as a keepsake. It's a purpose built machine, nothing more.

>>Harley, God love 'em, just doesn't understand the sport bike market so it's pretty clear that they should stay clear of it.>>

Well, that's kind of the point, isn't it? This is not the first time that HD has ventured into a market they clearly had not done their homework on.

>>Since you have used the term mindset, Harley's mindset right now is to stay in business and avoid the difficulties of the 1980's when they very nearly went out of business. <<

Yep. The only question I have in my mind is if the tactics are the right ones. Time will tell. If they survive and build something that interests me I'll certainly take a close look at it.

Y'all nave a great day, I've had my say.

[Jim B.]

[/quote]
... it's all of the friends I've made and places I've gone, the nice memories, the great conversations I've had...and this is one of them, by the way, that make me want to have a Harley around.
[/quote]

This sentence got me thinking. I've made a lot more friends and had a lot more great conversations about riding and motorcyles since I got my 09 Road Glide than I ever made or had with my 05 Goldwing. I love a lot of things about my Goldwing but if I had to choose between the two, I would pick the Harley.

[Ultrashovel]

... it's all of the friends I've made and places I've gone, the nice memories, the great conversations I've had...and this is one of them, by the way, that make me want to have a Harley around.
[/quote]

This sentence got me thinking. I've made a lot more friends and had a lot more great conversations about riding and motorcyles since I got my 09 Road Glide than I ever made or had with my 05 Goldwing. I love a lot of things about my Goldwing but if I had to choose between the two, I would pick the Harley.
[/quote]

Oh, the Goldwing folks are OK, too. They're just a little bit different. But I certianly agree, the Harley group lkes to make good conversation. I owned a Goldwing for 6 years so I got a sample of their crowd.

[tomcat-flstf]

100 salaries   80 workers=micro managment    

[Clintster]

I would like to see a couple of those Buell models in the HD line-up to replace some of the too much of the same.   A little diversity would be good. 

[tomcat64]

100 salaries   80 workers=micro managment    

one tomcat to another,,, LOL... they could have had 800 hourly employees and probably still had 100 salaried people, it takes a certain number of managment and salaried people no matter what.

t-c

[mark61]

If you want to worship Mr. Potato Head while howling at the moon in your underwear that's O.K. with me! Just don't expect me to join in or agree with your choice :>)

When did you move into my neighborhood? Quit spying on me!



mark61

[CraigArizona85248]

100 salaries   80 workers=micro managment    

one tomcat to another,,, LOL... they could have had 800 hourly employees and probably still had 100 salaried people, it takes a certain number of managment and salaried people no matter what.

t-c

Exactly!  Most of those salaried workers were probably engineering, sales, and marketing.  The word "salaried" does not mean manager.  As you say... there is a certain amount of "overhead" no matter how many hourly workers you have building bikes.

-Craig

[76shuvlinoff]

Good point Jeff!  I guess, my thinking was related to the early 70's.  If AMF hadn't stepped in, they would have been gone way back then.  But I think you are correct that the government tariffs helped H-D get their footing in the early/mid 80's.  The tariffs were as important a part of their their recovery as the EVO.

-Craig

a few more important parts of their recovery that came from AMF financially backed engineering.... belt drives, alternators, mag rims.....   

[deathwish]

the reason I thought MV could be a good thing is because it gave them an oppertunity to use Italian styling, a different engine package, and yes it would be offshore but possibly a lower cost of maunufacturing. What HD did with the company is up to them to make it work. It seems they had no idea where they were headed from the beginning. Next year they will probably re-release a restyled 45 flathead and call it new.

[Ultrashovel]

the reason I thought MV could be a good thing is because it gave them an oppertunity to use Italian styling, a different engine package, and yes it would be offshore but possibly a lower cost of maunufacturing. What HD did with the company is up to them to make it work. It seems they had no idea where they were headed from the beginning. Next year they will probably re-release a restyled 45 flathead and call it new.

If they bring out a redo of the Harley 45", I'll buy one. Possibly the most dependable, most reliable model I ever owned. I had theee of them at various times. They aren't competitive anymore but you just have to love anything that simple and reliable.

[PC_Hater]

In most if not all of Europe a reasonably large proportion of motorcycle riders are limited to a machine of 33hp.
The bureuacrats decided that if you were under 19 or had less than 2 years experience driving a motor vehicle then you were limited to 33hp for 2 years. (there's more but I shan't bore you with it)
So, there is quite a nice market for 33hp bikes in Europe.
The Buell Blast was 35hp or something, how hard would it have been to do a Europe only version at 33hp?
My girlfriend has a 1200 Nightster electronically limited to 33hp until January 6th 2010.
A 33hp Hyabusa is possible but I do hope nobody has been mad enough to do it!

If you can get 33hp out of a 45 without major mechanical modifications being needed, I 'll buy the bolt-on kit for mine now!
Direct fuel injection into the cylinders on a flathead might be a fun 33hp project for the MoCo.
And keep the kickstart.

[Ultrashovel]

In most if not all of Europe a reasonably large proportion of motorcycle riders are limited to a machine of 33hp.
The bureuacrats decided that if you were under 19 or had less than 2 years experience driving a motor vehicle then you were limited to 33hp for 2 years. (there's more but I shan't bore you with it)
So, there is quite a nice market for 33hp bikes in Europe.
The Buell Blast was 35hp or something, how hard would it have been to do a Europe only version at 33hp?
My girlfriend has a 1200 Nightster electronically limited to 33hp until January 6th 2010.
A 33hp Hyabusa is possible but I do hope nobody has been mad enough to do it!

If you can get 33hp out of a 45 without major mechanical modifications being needed, I 'll buy the bolt-on kit for mine now!
Direct fuel injection into the cylinders on a flathead might be a fun 33hp project for the MoCo.
And keep the kickstart.

You're right. The 33 hp rule is strange and also Harley's failure to recognize a potential market with the Blast is equally odd.

[hotroadking]

We shall see how wise the new mgt is.

First buggaboo decisions

Not to show up at Daytona for Biketoberfest

NO Demo bikes.
Just gave out pins...

And there was a line for the event pins..

How do you continue to support sales and keep your
new bikes at home....

Heck even Boss Hoss had demos...

what did they save $40, $50, maybe a little more?

What will they loose with people simply questioning mgt

Cutting marketing in a downturn is the first thing poor managers do...

[springer-]

http://www.topspeed.com/motorcycles/motorcycle-news/chances-to-save-buell-motorcycles-emerge-ar80525.html

It will be interesting to see if that pans out any.  I wish them the best as I would like to see the Buell continue.

[ederdelyi]

I've been following this, thus far, HD had been "less than receptive" to any and all proposals to sell or allow the continuation of Buell motorcyles under any banner but HD. It would be great to see the brand continue under an unfettered, passionate  ownership ... which is what it takes to produce a competitive product in the target market for those bikes. Imagine where Ducati and a few others would be today without the passion and commitment ... nuff said.

[choseneasy]

 "nuff said" but well said.  Keep us up to date on any developments.