Buell to be Discontinued

[ederdelyi]

Probably true. Can't help but think that there was still a lot of HD influence that limited what the powerplant parameters ended up being. It's possible to make a V-Twin competitive ... others have done it. If you are not gonna do what everyone else is doing then it's gonna take some real talent, innovation, and dedication to be truly competitive in a level playing field. I just don't see HD doing that ... right, wrong, or indifferent they want it their way or they won't play.
One thing is for sure, it''ll be interesting to see how it all plays out and who gets to say "i told you so"... as if that really matters. :>)

EDIT: Kind of the same problems that haunted the VR1000 racing program ... you can't play in that arena with a half hearted approach. It's max efffort or get the Hell out of the way!

[Ultrashovel]

Probably true. Can't help but think that there was still a lot of HD influence that limited what the powerplant parameters ended up being. It's possible to make a V-Twin competitive ... others have done it. If you are not gonna do what everyone else is doing then it's gonna take some real talent, innovation, and dedication to be truly competitive in a level playing field. I just don't see HD doing that ... right, wrong, or indifferent they want it their way or they won't play.
One thing is for sure, it''ll be interesting to see how it all plays out and who gets to say "i told you so"... as if that really matters. :>)

EDIT: Kind of the same problems that haunted the VR1000 racing program ... you can't play in that arena with a half hearted approach. It's max efffort or get the Hell out of the way!

Don't mean to contradict, but if you look at the History of the VR1000, there was nothing half-hearted about the approach. It was a purpose-built machine. It just wasn't as fast and didn't handle as well and didn't have the gross horsepower of the big four contenders in that class. It was a a nice try but no cigar. Obviously I never got to ride one but I looked closely at one at Laughlin, NV about ten years ago it was evident that they were a bit on the heavy side, too. That and the other difficulties, and one can see why they never hit pay dirt.

Harley spent millions doing that program and, at the end, it got them a lot of advertising and little else.

It's ironic that in dirt track racing, the 1970's XR-1000 is still competitive. Gio figure.

[ederdelyi]

Well, if one is going to step into the arena with the likes of the Honda, Aprillia, Ducati, Yamaha, Ferrari, MacLarens , etc. of the world, you better bring more than just money. Our government has proved time and again that throwing money at things doesn't solve problems. IMO, HD never went at it with the dedication or commitment of their competition. There was a lot of politics that crippled that program just like the politics that ultimately killed Buell. Sorry, but I am not one to give blind allegience to anyone or anything. I gain respect in this world by my actions and deeds ... it should be no different for anyone or any orginization/corporation.

We obviously have different opinions ... I'm okay with agreeing to disagree.

[Ultrashovel]

Well, if one is going to step into the arena with the likes of the Honda, Aprillia, Ducati, Yamaha, Ferrari, MacLarens , etc. of the world, you better bring more than just money. Our government has proved time and again that throwing money at things doesn't solve problems. IMO, HD never went at it with the dedication or commitment of their competition. There was a lot of politics that crippled that program just like the politics that ultimately killed Buell. Sorry, but I am not one to give blind allegience to anyone or anything. I gain respect in this world by my actions and deeds ... it should be no different for anyone or any orginization/corporation.

We obviously have different opinions ... I'm okay with agreeing to disagree.

We're not really that far apart. What you call lack of dedication and commitment, I think was simply naivete on Harley's part. They went into the modern era of road racing without fully understanding it.

I agree on the politics. Take Flat Track racing for example. It's the same politics with the AMA and other related groups that crippled and has basically destroyed track racing, especially the Mile Race series. Nowadays, you could probably enter a motorized wheel chair and no one would notice since they change the rules most every year.

As to blind allegience, I understand that you don't have blind allegiance, nor do I. I have a bum leg. That's only relevant to this discussion because I like to have a sidecar around. The only company that makes one that suits me is Harley-Davidson. They fit, they match and they ride, handle and look nice. I can ride solo and I do from time to time but the sidecar makes things easy for me. Other big bikes can haul a sidecar, but they have to be cobbled together from various sources whereas mine was a turnkey operation.

No, it's far from blind allegiance. It's all of the friends I've made and places I've gone, the nice memories, the great conversations I've had...and this is one of them, by the way, that make me want to have a Harley around.

Don't forget as well, that of all of the bikes, Harley is the easiest of all to work on yourself. That's a fact. I look at the wonderful, imported modern overhead cam engines that turn 12K + rpm and then I think about what it would be like to tear into one and it makes my back ache just thinking about it. You can even get discount parts for Harleys too, and there's an incredible extended aftermarket. Virtually all of the imports have very high parts prices and much less aftermarket than HD does.

So. if you no longer like what HD does, it's fine. Don't give up on them when they're down, though. Someday, they may make one that you like. LOL.

[FLTRI]

As to blind allegiance, I understand that you don't have blind allegiance, nor do I. I have a bum leg. That's only relevant to this discussion because I like to have a sidecar around. The only company that makes one that suits me is Harley-Davidson. They fit, they match and they ride, handle and look nice. I can ride solo and I do from time to time but the sidecar makes things easy for me. Other big bikes can haul a sidecar, but they have to be cobbled together from various sources whereas mine was a turnkey operation.

No, it's far from blind allegiance. It's all of the friends I've made and places I've gone, the nice memories, the great conversations I've had...and this is one of them, by the way, that make me want to have a Harley around.

Don't forget as well, that of all of the bikes, Harley is the easiest of all to work on yourself. That's a fact. I look at the wonderful, imported modern overhead cam engines that turn 12K + rpm and then I think about what it would be like to tear into one and it makes my back ache just thinking about it. You can even get discount parts for Harleys too, and there's an incredible extended aftermarket. Virtually all of the imports have very high parts prices and much less aftermarket than HD does.

So. if you no longer like what HD does, it's fine. Don't give up on them when they're down, though. Someday, they may make one that you like. LOL.

All I can say to what you've just expressed is: 
I believe this has been key to the allegiance, blind or open eyed, to the HD v-twin, not its performance compared to its competition. That is prolly changing now due to younger, more aggressive attitudes out on the streets thinking about what bike they want to buy.
I also believe a retro 59 caddy with a 502 big block is fun to drive, especially with updated Corvette suspension mods. .
Bob

[ederdelyi]

>> also believe a retro 59 caddy with a 502 big block is fun to drive, especially with updated Corvette suspension mods<<

Yep, and some think that a Ferrari motor in a garbage truck is cool too :>)

It's all about choice and what each of us percieves as what is "good" or "bad". I don't expect others to agree with my choices and I don't try to make others conform to my likes and dislikes ... all I expect is the same in return. Stuff like this,  there is no "right" or "wrong", but what works for you, whatever the reason(s) may be. If you want to worship Mr. Potato Head while howling at the moon in your underwear that's O.K. with me! Just don't expect me to join in or agree with your choice :>)

While I think it is more than sad that HD pulled the plug on Buell, considering the mindset of past and present HD management it was likely the right move as they were never going to dedicate the resources or freedom to develop the bikes to what they could have been ... In My Opinion.

[FLTRI]

Yep, and some think that a Ferrari motor in a garbage truck is cool too :>)

Yea but what do they know? They should know a Ferrari motor doesn't produce enough torque to move a garbage truck. LOL! OK, maybe after a specially developed tranny/diff.
There's a reason there are high performance Caddy's, MBZ's, BMW's, etc....even pick-ups.
Not everyone can get their family and tent in a Vette.
Bob

[Ultrashovel]

>> also believe a retro 59 caddy with a 502 big block is fun to drive, especially with updated Corvette suspension mods<<

Yep, and some think that a Ferrari motor in a garbage truck is cool too :>)

It's all about choice and what each of us percieves as what is "good" or "bad". I don't expect others to agree with my choices and I don't try to make others conform to my likes and dislikes ... all I expect is the same in return. Stuff like this,  there is no "right" or "wrong", but what works for you, whatever the reason(s) may be. If you want to worship Mr. Potato Head while howling at the moon in your underwear that's O.K. with me! Just don't expect me to join in or agree with your choice :>)

While I think it is more than sad that HD pulled the plug on Buell, considering the mindset of past and present HD management it was likely the right move as they were never going to dedicate the resources or freedom to develop the bikes to what they could have been ... In My Opinion.

Removing Buell is just a business decision in a difficult time. They never sold very well, nice as they were. The dealers didn't like them and never went out of their way to understand them.

As far as changing Buells, well, there's always the V-Rod. That is rather like a highly-modified Buell. They didn't sell very well, either and resale on them is not good at all. Harley, God love 'em, just doesn't understand the sport bike market so it's pretty clear that they should stay clear of it.

Since you have used the term mindset, Harley's mindset right now is to stay in business and avoid the difficulties of the 1980's when they very nearly went out of business.

[ederdelyi]

Last post here, I promise :>)

>>Removing Buell is just a business decision in a difficult time. They never sold very well, nice as they were. The dealers didn't like them and never went out of their way to understand them.<<

Well, since they failed to understand the market in the first place (as you point out) and completely mis-understood how the dealer network should have been approached ... what did they expect? If you want to change the game you better have the product and tools in place to do it ... they didn't.

>>As far as changing Buells, well, there's always the V-Rod. That is rather like a highly-modified Buell. They didn't sell very well, either and resale on them is not good at all.<<

Not even close to a Buell or any other MC "type". Good motor in a chassis that doesn't do much of anything well. As I always told my product engineers ... "It doesn't matter if we think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, if it is not marketable it's worse than worthless". Resale? Vehicles are not investments, IMO. I don't expect to get much for a used toaster ... use it til it can't be fixed anymore and dump it or bronze the sucker and admire it as a keepsake. It's a purpose built machine, nothing more.

>>Harley, God love 'em, just doesn't understand the sport bike market so it's pretty clear that they should stay clear of it.>>

Well, that's kind of the point, isn't it? This is not the first time that HD has ventured into a market they clearly had not done their homework on.

>>Since you have used the term mindset, Harley's mindset right now is to stay in business and avoid the difficulties of the 1980's when they very nearly went out of business. <<

Yep. The only question I have in my mind is if the tactics are the right ones. Time will tell. If they survive and build something that interests me I'll certainly take a close look at it.

Y'all nave a great day, I've had my say.

[Jim B.]

[/quote]
... it's all of the friends I've made and places I've gone, the nice memories, the great conversations I've had...and this is one of them, by the way, that make me want to have a Harley around.
[/quote]

This sentence got me thinking. I've made a lot more friends and had a lot more great conversations about riding and motorcyles since I got my 09 Road Glide than I ever made or had with my 05 Goldwing. I love a lot of things about my Goldwing but if I had to choose between the two, I would pick the Harley.

[Ultrashovel]

... it's all of the friends I've made and places I've gone, the nice memories, the great conversations I've had...and this is one of them, by the way, that make me want to have a Harley around.
[/quote]

This sentence got me thinking. I've made a lot more friends and had a lot more great conversations about riding and motorcyles since I got my 09 Road Glide than I ever made or had with my 05 Goldwing. I love a lot of things about my Goldwing but if I had to choose between the two, I would pick the Harley.
[/quote]

Oh, the Goldwing folks are OK, too. They're just a little bit different. But I certianly agree, the Harley group lkes to make good conversation. I owned a Goldwing for 6 years so I got a sample of their crowd.

[tomcat-flstf]

100 salaries   80 workers=micro managment    

[Clintster]

I would like to see a couple of those Buell models in the HD line-up to replace some of the too much of the same.   A little diversity would be good. 

[tomcat64]

100 salaries   80 workers=micro managment    

one tomcat to another,,, LOL... they could have had 800 hourly employees and probably still had 100 salaried people, it takes a certain number of managment and salaried people no matter what.

t-c

[mark61]

If you want to worship Mr. Potato Head while howling at the moon in your underwear that's O.K. with me! Just don't expect me to join in or agree with your choice :>)

When did you move into my neighborhood? Quit spying on me!



mark61

[CraigArizona85248]

100 salaries   80 workers=micro managment    

one tomcat to another,,, LOL... they could have had 800 hourly employees and probably still had 100 salaried people, it takes a certain number of managment and salaried people no matter what.

t-c

Exactly!  Most of those salaried workers were probably engineering, sales, and marketing.  The word "salaried" does not mean manager.  As you say... there is a certain amount of "overhead" no matter how many hourly workers you have building bikes.

-Craig

[76shuvlinoff]

Good point Jeff!  I guess, my thinking was related to the early 70's.  If AMF hadn't stepped in, they would have been gone way back then.  But I think you are correct that the government tariffs helped H-D get their footing in the early/mid 80's.  The tariffs were as important a part of their their recovery as the EVO.

-Craig

a few more important parts of their recovery that came from AMF financially backed engineering.... belt drives, alternators, mag rims.....   

[deathwish]

the reason I thought MV could be a good thing is because it gave them an oppertunity to use Italian styling, a different engine package, and yes it would be offshore but possibly a lower cost of maunufacturing. What HD did with the company is up to them to make it work. It seems they had no idea where they were headed from the beginning. Next year they will probably re-release a restyled 45 flathead and call it new.

[Ultrashovel]

the reason I thought MV could be a good thing is because it gave them an oppertunity to use Italian styling, a different engine package, and yes it would be offshore but possibly a lower cost of maunufacturing. What HD did with the company is up to them to make it work. It seems they had no idea where they were headed from the beginning. Next year they will probably re-release a restyled 45 flathead and call it new.

If they bring out a redo of the Harley 45", I'll buy one. Possibly the most dependable, most reliable model I ever owned. I had theee of them at various times. They aren't competitive anymore but you just have to love anything that simple and reliable.

[PC_Hater]

In most if not all of Europe a reasonably large proportion of motorcycle riders are limited to a machine of 33hp.
The bureuacrats decided that if you were under 19 or had less than 2 years experience driving a motor vehicle then you were limited to 33hp for 2 years. (there's more but I shan't bore you with it)
So, there is quite a nice market for 33hp bikes in Europe.
The Buell Blast was 35hp or something, how hard would it have been to do a Europe only version at 33hp?
My girlfriend has a 1200 Nightster electronically limited to 33hp until January 6th 2010.
A 33hp Hyabusa is possible but I do hope nobody has been mad enough to do it!

If you can get 33hp out of a 45 without major mechanical modifications being needed, I 'll buy the bolt-on kit for mine now!
Direct fuel injection into the cylinders on a flathead might be a fun 33hp project for the MoCo.
And keep the kickstart.

[Ultrashovel]

In most if not all of Europe a reasonably large proportion of motorcycle riders are limited to a machine of 33hp.
The bureuacrats decided that if you were under 19 or had less than 2 years experience driving a motor vehicle then you were limited to 33hp for 2 years. (there's more but I shan't bore you with it)
So, there is quite a nice market for 33hp bikes in Europe.
The Buell Blast was 35hp or something, how hard would it have been to do a Europe only version at 33hp?
My girlfriend has a 1200 Nightster electronically limited to 33hp until January 6th 2010.
A 33hp Hyabusa is possible but I do hope nobody has been mad enough to do it!

If you can get 33hp out of a 45 without major mechanical modifications being needed, I 'll buy the bolt-on kit for mine now!
Direct fuel injection into the cylinders on a flathead might be a fun 33hp project for the MoCo.
And keep the kickstart.

You're right. The 33 hp rule is strange and also Harley's failure to recognize a potential market with the Blast is equally odd.

[hotroadking]

We shall see how wise the new mgt is.

First buggaboo decisions

Not to show up at Daytona for Biketoberfest

NO Demo bikes.
Just gave out pins...

And there was a line for the event pins..

How do you continue to support sales and keep your
new bikes at home....

Heck even Boss Hoss had demos...

what did they save $40, $50, maybe a little more?

What will they loose with people simply questioning mgt

Cutting marketing in a downturn is the first thing poor managers do...

[springer-]

http://www.topspeed.com/motorcycles/motorcycle-news/chances-to-save-buell-motorcycles-emerge-ar80525.html

It will be interesting to see if that pans out any.  I wish them the best as I would like to see the Buell continue.

[ederdelyi]

I've been following this, thus far, HD had been "less than receptive" to any and all proposals to sell or allow the continuation of Buell motorcyles under any banner but HD. It would be great to see the brand continue under an unfettered, passionate  ownership ... which is what it takes to produce a competitive product in the target market for those bikes. Imagine where Ducati and a few others would be today without the passion and commitment ... nuff said.

[choseneasy]

 "nuff said" but well said.  Keep us up to date on any developments.