Head Gasket Leaking -NOW

[Roadking97]

I got a 97 FLHRI  45k miles
In June, I did a top end overall, installed all new gaskets, and a haydens oil fit, continued to have some seepage at the base rear base gasket when cold.  Now,  at start-up the head gasket leak. (40F ambient) , Once warmed upped and the cylinder grow the leak stops,   

What gives?  Has any one else had this happen to them,  Could I have missed on the head bolt torque?
I used the procedure from the factory manual.   Is there a possibility I lost torque? or are my stud pulling out of the cases?

I am curious to try to re-torque the bolt and see if it stop the leak. 

[ClassicRider2002]

I got a 97 FLHRI  45k miles
In June, I did a top end overall, installed all new gaskets, and a haydens oil fit, continued to have some seepage at the base rear base gasket when cold.  Now,  at start-up the head gasket leak. (40F ambient) , Once warmed upped and the cylinder grow the leak stops,   What gives?  Has any one else had this happen to them,  Could I have missed on the head bolt torque?
I used the procedure from the factory manual.   Is there a possibility I lost torque? or are my stud pulling out of the cases?

I am curious to try to re-torque the bolt and see if it stop the leak. 



Roadking97~~~

What gives?  Has any one else had this happen to them,  Could I have missed on the head bolt torque?

Many have attempted to fix "base gasket" leaks only to have them leak again, some talk about smoothing them or perhaps that they could always be slightly "warped" but at the end of the day.....if you will take the time to carefully read what is within the attached "THREAD" below PERHAPS you might discover from previous HTT what they did to stop such issues from happening in the future, so the answer to your above question, ie: "....Has anyone else had this happen to them...." YES!.   You possibly could have missed torquing the bolts incorrectly, that is always a possiblity indeed, but after reading the attached "THREAD" below perhaps you will arrive at some other possiblities.......

And yes, I am sorry to hear you are having some issues.....but there are some solutions.....first of all I would never attempt to simply try to "retorque" the bolt(s) to see if that would stop anything.....at the end of the day you could end up with much larger problems than you started with.....so that would not be the "conservative" approach I would ever take, especially since that engine has gone through several ie: many heat cycles and is tighted the way you finished your procedure at the time it was done so to manipulate the bolt could cause a major problem.

I am going to provide you a link which really speaks about this issue, the "link" will take you to a FXR type of discussion BUT remember we are talking about a 1997 EVO engine here with your 1997 Road King, so the concepts are totally appropriate for your use......perhaps this "link" might express or show or discuss some things you didn't do or could do to keep the problem from occuring again.....

Let me as well as others know what you decide to do and what the results are, that's how we all truly benefit from participation here, reading of other's problems and then reading about the "positive" results, so here is the "link" I am referring to, simply move your curser on to the "http:// address / link" below, then click your curser, view and read at your pleasure, as I said hopefully you will find some value within the attached "THREAD".

By the way I am FXR2evo99 within this THREAD:

Topic: Rocker box gaskets-FXR
http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=1049.0;all

Be aware that there are a total of 43 posts "REPLYS" into this THREAD, and basically starting at "REPLY" #23 begins where you will find the most interest.  "REPLYS" #23 - 31 are the most informative for your 1997 Road King.  Some of the information within this "THREAD" will relate to working within the "frame" of the FXR butttttttttt  "REPLYS" #23 - 31 will be "UNIVERSAL" to the application of your 1997 Road King.  This "THREAD" will also show photos of the actual gaskets that I have used on my EVO engine which I have found successful in use, the photos will also show you part numbers as well.

Regards,

"Classic"

[wfolarry]

That can happen with the silicone beaded gaskets. What you describe was pretty common on Sportsters. I always true up the bases in the lathe before putting them back on. Gasket sealers can help. Check the torque on the headbolts before you tear it apart. This will give you a clue as to what went wrong.

[ClassicRider2002]

"....I always true up the bases in the lathe before putting them back on. Gasket sealers can help...."

wfolarry~~~

Your reflection above was one Samuel addressed way way back in 2001 when people were really complaining about the EVO engine suffering from the problems that Roadking97 mentions above....."squaring" or "truing" up the bases....Samuel found that he knew of many that had spent many a $ trying to "cure" the issue the way you provided.......his solution if you were to go up and read the "THREAD" above was quite basic and rather "SAMUEL" like (humorusly stated) he was quite the amazing person when it comes to these HD's.....he is truly missed....anyway....the bottom line is you are right, one has to do what one has to do to get one's bike to function appropriately.....at the end of the day I suppose there are various options always available to us but to read Samuel's position he felt it basically came down to a pretty simple solution......"AVATION GASKET CEMENT".  I for one have found his recommendation of that product alone to be worth my entire experience here at HTT as extremely helpful.

Regards,

"Classic"

[Buddy WMC]

Roadking97,

Did you install new headbolts or, perhaps reuse the same headbolts? If so, next time install new ones as that and the issues already discussed could be part of your problem.

[Old Crow]

Hey Classic!  Are we talking good ol' fashion Permatex, brown, smelly stuff here?

I love it!!!!

[ClassicRider2002]

OLD Crow....
Yep WE IS!!!!!   

Regards,

"Classic"

[rednectum]

yamabond4 works great and is lots easier to clean up.

[Flat Dog]

Did you heat cycle/re torque after the rebuild? I've seen a shovel blow the head gasket if the heat cycle procedure is not followed.

As said for the base gasket...a combo of cylinder base lapping plus permatex gasket sealer aka yamabond aka many other names will form the best non leaking evo seal I have ever seen.

[Roadking97]

Photo John,

No I did not do a heat cycle re torque. I am not familiar with that procedure for an Evo, What do you have to do? 

[bigtone]

Heat cycling is recommended by S&S, you can find a reference to it in the instructions on their site. Retorquing is not done on an evo, you cannot access the 2 headbolts under the rocker cover. The most common reason I have seen for Head gasket failures is not warming the engine enough before whacking the throttle. The head gasket is held in place by a clamp load of the cylinders between the head and the cases. It doesn't really tighten up until the cylinders expand. The studs expand too, but not as much as the aluminum cylinders do.  Once a path is created for the combustion gas to escape, it just continually gets worse. First you can hear it whistling when you first start the engine, eventually it blows altogether.

[dave_9113]

RK97,

Lots of good information given to you so far.  Here's my 2 cents, because i just recently fixed by base gasket leak. 

1)  You have to find out why the leak started again.  Wrong torque and warp cylinder base are top of the list.  I'm guessing a combination of torque and crappy base gasket.  Hayden oil fix should have fixed your leak, but it's best not to use the paper gasket that is supplied with the kit. 
2)  If you can't stand the leak/weepage, you'll have to take her down to re-do the gaskets.  Since you just did the top end, a honing and maybe new rings, but that's all. 
3)  I used James gaskets for cylinder base and heads.  Cometic is another equivalent brand. The head gasket is MSL (multi-steel-layered).  The James base gasket has the silicone bead, and I put both gaskets on dry.  I did debate on whether to use Hylomar or Permatex Aviation gasket cement.  I think it's your call on that, but with these new type of gaskets, you don't need it.  Having said that, I would highly recommend checking cylinder base for straightness. 
4)  You have the newest factory cylinder studs, so those are good.  New head bolts are recommended also.  I'm assuming your bike is stock, so re-using the head bolts shouldn't pose a problem either.  They do stretch.  Your call.
5)  Torque sequence.  I use the James recommended sequence. Check the torque 3 times before I buttoned up the rocker covers.  You can't retorque like you do on Shovels. 
6)  Again, once fixed.  Proper warm up is key on these Evos.  I inherited my leak, but now it's fixed right. 

If you take your time to inspect, clean, and properly prepare the surfaces, you will not have any problems.  I recommend you do it yourself and then it's done right.  Last thing, BuddyWMC sent me some good notes, I can forward those to you if you like. 

BTW....I'm having good success with my base gasket fix thus far.  Good luck with yours.

dave 

[Buddy WMC]

Ditto on what Dave has stated.

When I replaced my top end the Revolution Performance big bore cylinders were new and square. I also used the James beaded base gaskets, installed the Hayden oil fix jets and used no sealant. I also found that the oil holes in the supplied Cometic base gaskets did not line up properly with the oil drain holes. Those gaskets were sent to Revolution to be shipped to Cometic for an explanation.

I used the Cometic steel sandwiched composite head head gaskets as supplied with my kit to keep the static CR at 10.5 to 1. They were also installed dry and torqued three times per the Cometic instructions. I also installed Diamond Engineering polished stainless steel headbolts. The engine was heat cycled while still on the lift four times although per the Revolution Performance instructions only three cycles were required.

After running over 500 miles and installing a Baker DD6 and new extra plate Energy One clutch it was dyno time. After a  a four quart oil and filter change, transmission oil change and primary oil change, nine dyno pulls were performed. The engine has not leaked a drop of oil since the rebuild now over 1000 miles. The engine did burn about a half quart during the preliminary break in, but has since sealed up.

Follow the advice given here, really important is a proper engine warm up. Make sure that your cylinder bases are square. If they are good, your cylinder studs and headbolts need to be good as well. No one likes to do a major teardown only to have to do it again for a part that only costs a few dollars.

[ClassicRider2002]

2)  If you can't stand the leak/weepage, you'll have to take her down to re-do the gaskets.  Since you just did the top end, a honing and maybe new rings, but that's all.  

Alright, now I must admit I haven't been this far "down" before on my 1999 FXR2 EVO bike, however the idea that you have to "rehone and provide new rings" assumes that one would have to remove the "pistons" correct? 

So when I did a "piston and up exchange" between two of my TWIN CAM motors exchanging all of the parts taking one engine that was "OEM" stock while the other engine was a mild 95" build "exchanging these two "piston and up" parts of two TWIN CAM motors between two bikes, thus having different pistons/heads/cams, I simply had 3 other guys help me (ie 6 pair of hands) in which I simply removed the "wrist pin" and "circlip" from each of the 4 pistons while keeping the "pistons' within the "jugs" therefore keeping from having to "rehone" or rering either set of pistons from both bikes.....THUS I would "think" one could avoid having to rehone or rering if such a procedure was done here as well....yes it does take some additional hands, and some patience.....but I was VERY VERY successful getting this done and then engine that I took from stock to the 95" mild build has run flawlessly for nearly two years...... So when I saw the "rehoning/reringing" I thought I would throw this .20 cents in (with inflation of course, lol).

And what did it accomplish......it simply accomplished a bit of savings and a bit more time down with the bike, and allowed me to do the entire "exchange" myself without "professional" outside help......you might ask how is the other bike doing.....well it was sold but it started flawlessly right after the exchange was completed.....

Regards,

"Classic"

[dave_9113]

Classic,

"would have to remove the "pistons" correct?"  No, you don't.

You could pull off the cylinder and just break the glaze on the cylinder and reuse the rings if they are still serviceable.     

If you have a few hands to help (which you did), you can definitely take the cylinder off with the piston still in them and not have to worry about rehone, etc..  You'll need two people to do this right.  And it does save some $$ and time.  I did the work by myself, so I couldn't do this properly.  Because of the mileage on my bike, it only needed a light hone and new rings.   

Both good options, your call.

dave



   

[lionsm13]

Good tech article;http://www.nrhsperformance.com/tech_cylinderassembly.shtml

[Hillside Motorcycle]

"....I always true up the bases in the lathe before putting them back on. Gasket sealers can help...."

wfolarry~~~

Your reflection above was one Samuel addressed way way back in 2001 when people were really complaining about the EVO engine suffering from the problems that Roadking97 mentions above....."squaring" or "truing" up the bases....Samuel found that he knew of many that had spent many a $ trying to "cure" the issue the way you provided.......his solution if you were to go up and read the "THREAD" above was quite basic and rather "SAMUEL" like (humorusly stated) he was quite the amazing person when it comes to these HD's.....he is truly missed....anyway....the bottom line is you are right, one has to do what one has to do to get one's bike to function appropriately.....at the end of the day I suppose there are various options always available to us but to read Samuel's position he felt it basically came down to a pretty simple solution......"AVATION GASKET CEMENT".  I for one have found his recommendation of that product alone to be worth my entire experience here at HTT as extremely helpful.

Regards,

"Classic"

WFO Larry's method is one of the ways, we too, address that issue here as well.
Along with a Cometic base gasket, and if in doubt, an application of Copper-Coat spray.
No leaks. Same scenario with the head gaskets, using Cometic gasks, 10/20/, then 1/4 turn. (just about 42 ft/lbs).
No leaks. Works for us.

[bigtone]

I might have missed something in one of the above postings, but you do not have to hone and re-ring if you are just pulling  the cylinders off for a base gasket problem. Many people don't realize that the rings move around some, the whole idea of staggering the ring gaps is to minimize the chance of them lining up. I've been pulling cylinders and reinstalling without honing or new rings for 20 years, never had a problem. This of course, depends on the condition of the engine. If it had 80k miles or so on it, I would definately think about a ring job.

[wfolarry]

I remember back when silicone became popular & everybody was putting silicone all over ther Shovelheads to stop oil leaks. Worked good too. So good in fact that it also plugged up the oil passages inside the motor as well. Lots of rebuilds credited to silicone. If you want to smear glue all over your motor to stop leaks go ahead. I've seen Aviation Gasket Cement used for over 30 years by backyard mechanics.

[Roadking97]

Guys,  once again thanks for all the information.

bigtone,
I found your post most interesting, because I was thinking the exact thing.   I have about 3,000 mile on the rings and hone job. I really don't want to spend the money to have the cylinder re-honed. But I also don't want to cause more problems. I thought of removing the piston in the cylinder but the extra set of hands will be a problem.  I would assume that the cylinders should be in good condition, but you know when you assume.

I will probably start tearing down the engine after the Holiday,

Merry Christmas To You All   

[dave_9113]

RK97,

It does suck having to replace gasket after you just recently did it.  If your cylinder still has the cross-hatch, you won't even need to de-glaze them.  Just clean them up nice with soap and water, air dry and you're good to go.  Have fun.
dave 

[bobrk1]

Got a 97RK with 118k on it, did the top end at 100k never a problem, make sure the surfaces are clean and torque to 42 ftlbs.

[Roadking97]

Gentlemen,

As a follow up.  I started to tear down the rear cylinder.

And what I found was the torque on the rear LH bolt (number 1 in torque sequence) was about 40 ft-lbs and all the rest were about 20. I was hard with a click type torque wrench to find the actual botled torque. But any way,  the bolt torque was not there.  Also , the base gasket (James) looked brand new as if it was not compressed.  What I could figure is the Hayden Oil fix prevented the cylinder to full seating against the engine block. I noticed a burr on the ID of the oil return hole which matched up with the Oil Fix OD.  I don't remember any fitment issues when I assembled it in June. All I can guess that the alignment was effected and prevented the cylinder to fully seat.

As of now, I going to have the cylinder honed and reinstall the rings (2,500 miles on them) and piston, with a Cometic base gasket (same thickness).   
 

[Roadking97]

FYI

Here are a couple of pictures of the damage to the cylinder oil port and the Hayden Oil Fix. You can't tell by these picture by it is a perfect fit.  Somehow the Oil fix became misaligned  causing a incorrect head bolt torque and head gasket failure.  FYI, the base gasket was still leaking.   

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[BKACHE]

When you had the heads off did you put oil in the stud caps and run them on and off a few times to make sure their was no binding?
If they had some crud in them (well only 1 w/ crud would do it) the torque spec / 90 degree turn would be off. 

[Roadking97]

BKACHE

I was pretty sure to have everything cleaned and well oiled.  I got new head bolts and will make sure the run them up and down a few time.