OIL BUD

[HDDOC]

I have no reason to believe that the oil bud system will not cool the oil at the advertised temps on hot days, As he takes the temps right were the oil returns from the cooler at the filter adaptor. I would love to see the temps at the oil pan. In my own tests with differant coolers oil pan temps drop very little with larger coolers or multiable coolers vs. a single cooler. Reason IMO is that the coolers create pressure at the camplate relief valve and that oil does not get cooled as the relief valve is by passing the coolers over a certain oil pressure and dumping it back in the oil pan uncool ed, not all the oil in the system gets to go thru the cooler. Increasing the spring size on the relief valve or adding a shim on 07 up motors will shorten the life of the hydraulic tensioners by adding more pressure to the tensioners making them tighter and ware faster. JM2Ct's.    Doc.

[Admiral Akbar]

that oil does not get cooled as the relief valve is by passing the coolers over a certain oil pressure and dumping it back in the oil pan uncool ed, not all the oil in the system gets to go thru the cooler.

I'm not sure why you are saying this.. All oil that goes to the motor from the feed side passage has to go through the cooler. Pressure relieved oil only goes back to the feed side of the pump.. Dry sump systems need to do this to control the amount of oil that enters the motor. Also you don't want unfiltered oil entering the motor (though I think so early HDs, pre evo, might have dumped to the cases). On a wet sump system, you can relieve to the crank case..  Max

[Blackbaggr]

Forgive my ignorance or ability to articulate how and why things happen...BUT....I recall reading an article that compared Jagg to HD Premium oil coolers (I have the HD). In the article I believe that it stated that the Jagg had a better influence on the systems oil pressure than the HD so the author prefered the Jagg over the HD. If this is accurate, my concern would then be what effect does this product have on the oil pressure and was it even engineered with this in mind.

[SoonerSoftail]

I'm going to be adding an oil cooler when it starts getting hot around here next spring/summer. But there is no way I'm paying $600 for one when this and other forums are full of posts saying that the Jagg and HD do just fine for half the price. I do like the idea of the Oil Bud being under the motor and pretty much hidden, but not to the tune of an extra $300.

[HDDOC]

that oil does not get cooled as the relief valve is by passing the coolers over a certain oil pressure and dumping it back in the oil pan uncool ed, not all the oil in the system gets to go thru the cooler.

I'm not sure why you are saying this.. All oil that goes to the motor from the feed side passage has to go through the cooler. Pressure relieved oil only goes back to the feed side of the pump.. Dry sump systems need to do this to control the amount of oil that enters the motor. Also you don't want unfiltered oil entering the motor (though I think so early HDs, pre evo, might have dumped to the cases). On a wet sump system, you can relieve to the crank case..  Max

Agreed Bruce, the relieved oil gets dumped in the cam chest and is scavenged back to the feed side, plus the fact there is no longer an oring at the camplate to the pump which passes more oil back to the scavenger, I am seeing as much as 10 oz of oil in the case and  in the camchest not as much but there maybe 4 oz. on a stock one cooler motor, now add an extra cooler and that amount goes up, enough IMO to create sumping. at least I can feel the difference. There are a lot of people in the business trying to lower the restriction in the cooler and adaptors to get better cooling with less restriction, Jagg IMO has it right, 1/3 more flow with less restriction, another is the baker +1qt oil pan with no restriction. Also the longer the oil sits in the engine the hotter it will get adding to higher oil temps at the tank. Hope I got this right I know what I see and hope I have explained it clear enough.  Doc

[HDDOC]

The majority of the big twins will be fine with one cooler and in some cases do not even need one. Doc

[HDDOC]

 by- passing the coolers over a certain oil pressure and dumping it back in the oil pan uncool ed, not all the oil in the system gets to go thru the cooler.


I see my mistake here, sorry.  Doc

[madjack]

 HDDOC, so , if you take away the radiator styje cooler. Replace it with a free flow system, witch has a much larger surface area and volume. Wouldn't that help to relief, your therory of increase sumping, by decreasing the bypass pressure

[HDDOC]

I have tried the engine gaurd cooler only to find the same condition.   Doc    My own thought on this will not work, with an external oil pump with a pick up at the tank and thru a cooler and back to the tank. But IMO would be great, but I would not use it

[RiskyBidness]

by- passing the coolers over a certain oil pressure and dumping it back in the oil pan uncool ed, not all the oil in the system gets to go thru the cooler.


I see my mistake here, sorry.  Doc

Doc:

Manufacturers and their distributors whether in the HD universe or elsewhere will do what ever they can to increase sales.

If the customer is 'inadvertently' misinformed then it's really a pitcher's issue - not the catcher's. This is about communications and ethics.

If you can find honest performance data without double-speak from the manufacturer / distributor data on any item (an oil cooler in this example), then you may make an informed decision about both the product AND the intent of the supplier. Good luck with that. 

Opinions and experience here in HTT is the best guide based on what I have seen most times.

ok ... ok ... ok - down off my soap box.

Going back into hibernation again - it's -8 deg. here.

LMK when it's Spring again.


RiskyB
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Admiral Akbar]

that oil does not get cooled as the relief valve is by passing the coolers over a certain oil pressure and dumping it back in the oil pan uncool ed, not all the oil in the system gets to go thru the cooler.

I'm not sure why you are saying this.. All oil that goes to the motor from the feed side passage has to go through the cooler. Pressure relieved oil only goes back to the feed side of the pump.. Dry sump systems need to do this to control the amount of oil that enters the motor. Also you don't want unfiltered oil entering the motor (though I think so early HDs, pre evo, might have dumped to the cases). On a wet sump system, you can relieve to the crank case..  Max

Agreed Bruce, the relieved oil does not get dumped in the cam chest but is fed back to the feed side, plus the fact there is no longer an oring at the camplate to the pump which don't make any difference, I am seeing as much as 10 oz of oil in the case and  in the camchest not as much but there maybe 4 oz. on a stock one cooler motor, now add an extra cooler and that amount goes up, enough IMO to create sumping. at least I can feel the difference. (not sure what is going on here I only have one bike with a 1 cooler on the return side)There are a lot of people in the business trying to lower the restriction in the cooler and adaptors to get better cooling with less restriction, Jagg IMO has it right, 1/3 more flow with less restriction, another is the baker +1qt oil pan with no restriction. Also the longer the oil sits in the engine the hotter it will get adding to higher oil temps at the tank. (I would agree with this, one of the reasons for B lifters) Hope I got this right I know what I see and hope I have explained it clear enough.  Doc

Fixed,

If you were talking about an evo then some of this would make sense.. Oil cooler on the return, not the feed.. Maybe your sumping is coming from the fact that the oil runs cooler and any aeration of the oil would hold the bubbles in with cooler oil?  You are talking about 07 ups I assume..

Not sure how a lower restriction oil cooler prevents sumping unless it's on the return side. TC have pretty much had em on the feed side except for my bike and a few other setups.

As long as the 2 machined surface are flat between the pump and the surface finish is good, the joint will not gush oil. You might see a drop or 2 every couple minutes when hot but not significant amount. Since the joint is not external it is not necessary. All the feed side holes on the bagger are not o ringed either.. What difference does it make?

Bruce

[HDDOC]

07 up bike, HD premium cooler is designed to slow the oil down for better cooling with there 8 row cooler, add a thermostat and it slows down more. Jagg without the thermostat and 10 row cooler has 1/3 more flow with less restriction. As an example..   Doc

[HDDOC]

Maybe your sumping is coming from the fact that the oil runs cooler and any aeration of the oil would hold the bubbles in with cooler oil? You are talking about 07 ups I assume..
  Bingo you nailed it. Bruce   Thanks Doc   Never even gave that theory a thought.

[HDDOC]

I like your set up with the cooler on the return side.  Doc

[jack5hd]

those flow tests were done with a stock oil pump..not the new hi-flo one h.d. has now...i have feuling pump and low mount h.d. cooler ,both work well.........j.k

[FLTRI]

....Maybe your sumping is coming from the fact that the oil runs cooler and any aeration of the oil would hold the bubbles in with cooler oil?  Bruce

This is the first I've heard of sumping being affected/caused by oil temperature. Even if oil holds a few more bubbles, for whatever reason(s) how would that cause oil to be left in the crankcase (sump)? Most all dry sump systems scavenge air along with residual from the crankcase to be returned to the tank.
Well it's a shot, albeit IMO, in the dark.
Bob

[Admiral Akbar]

Maybe your sumping is coming from the fact that the oil runs cooler and any aeration of the oil would hold the bubbles in with cooler oil? You are talking about 07 ups I assume..
  Bingo you nailed it. Bruce   Thanks Doc   Never even gave that theory a thought.

It may be possible for just enough bubbles to upset the system, flywheels start whipping stuff (oil)  up and now you are in trouble.. It does seem interesting that adding the oil cooler does not make a big difference in temperature and if it is causing sumping that would explain the anomaly.

Still I agree with Bob ob this one.. It's a shot in the dark..     

Bruce

[RoadKingTrooper]

Not an engineer, but............wouldn't the size of the oil passages in the engine be more restrictive than the cooler tubes?

[Dan89flstc]

Not an engineer, but............wouldn't the size of the oil passages in the engine be more restrictive than the cooler tubes?

Yes, but the restriction of the oil cooler is in addition to the restriction of the oil passages in the engine.

[RiskyBidness]

Dan:

Check out this link:  http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,19588.20.html    .... posting #21


RiskyB

[HDDOC]

Let me repeat, I do not have this loss of power with only one cooler in the system. Now add the second cooler in series with the first one and I get what I think is sumping, for sure, power loss that I can feel while riding. Now I have tried this duel cooler set up in parallel and did not notice the power loss, but also very little temp drop for a two cooler set up about 2-3 degrees at the oil pan. Risky B has come up with what I think is happening here, also Bruce has come up with another idea that may be going on here. I have no way to test either one. I have had the pump out and have checked everything and replaced all the o-rings and lined up the pump, pressure relief valve is working. By the way with 7000 miles on this bike everything looked new in there and the pinion runout was at .0035" not great but within limits. Also the parent bearing surfaces showed very little wear as did the pinion shaft bushing. Also the SE Tapped push rods are clear thru, I blew them out. I am waiting on a leak down tester to arrive to do a leak down just to see what I have. Warm engine compression test is 216 frt. 215 rear. this is on a 09 SERG 110". I have used 20-50 and 20-60 redline oil with the same results. I have tried the engine guard cooler by itself and in parallel with the HD premium cooler with no lose of power in parallel but with only a 5 degree temp drop at the oil pan over the single hd cooler. Oil temps stay in the 240s upper end close to 250s while cruising two up at 70to80 mphwith outside temps in the 80s. I want to see temps in the 220to 230 range and have not seen it yet. Tuning is as good as this tuner can get it, setting Afr in the 13.8 range. lower Afr ranges only burning more fuel and little if any temp changes, timing is another thing we played with and made little changes. Motor is very quiet and runs good. But add a second cooler and it loses some power that can be felt riding. That's my story. Thanks To all Doc

[FLTRI]

Doc,
Just curious. Have you eliminated the oil temp guage from the variables? If not maybe it's reading high. My 117 ran hot (230-250) until I reduced timing about 5-10% depending on the area. The bike ran fine with more timing and very little ping in the hot weather, but after the reduction in timing it shed about 15-20 degs oil temp, which brought it down to 215-230 on 80-85deg days.
Bob

[HDDOC]

Bob I have an indash HD gauge on backorder, been using the digital dipstick and digital meat probe for temps, the two sticks read real close with in 2 degrees.   Also have been tuning with the PCV, may switch over to the master tune.and try another tuner. Thanks Doc

[HDDOC]

My hot oil pressure has remained the same 36 psi with using one or two coolers in series or in parale. I was under the impression that all the oil on the feed side would go thru the coolers or cooler and into the filter , what I believe is happening, is that the oil comes into the filter adaptor with the thermostat open and is getting relieved into the filter and not all the oil is going thru the coolers. On the single cooler this may happen but more oil is going to the cooler because of less back pressure created by the two cooler set up in series. I may be all wrong here but it makes since to me. I wonder if there is a way to cool all the oil on the pressure feed side without putting a tax on the oil pump?  Thanks Doc

[madjack]

 Doc, thats basiclly what I hope to achive with the Oil Bod. The open chambers of the extruded aluminin will allow more volume, with less restriction of flow. By taking off the old radiator style cooler, and only useing the Oil Bud. Guess I was destined to be a test dummy, I know know better. Gene