TTS Tuner w/TSII/Wego

[ToBeFrank]

Sure, but bear in mind that I'm not near done w/em yet. Here ya go:

Vic, your graphs illustrate why I was unhappy with the TS software. The VE surface plot should not be all spiky like that. It indicates the algorithm he used to generate new VEs is purely cell based rather than interpolation along with a smoothing algorithm. The only thing you can do is smooth it by hand, or write you own VE generating software and just use the TS data logs, which is what I did. Unfortunately, I didn't save my spikey maps that I got from the TS, but here are the graphs using my software. The first two are when I was in the process of tuning. You can see that I had got through 30% throttle. The second two are the final VE graphs, which are nice and smooth. The only places I did any hand editing of the VE tables were the outliers where you can't collect data, i.e. low RPM/high TPS and high RPM/low TPS.




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[ToBeFrank]

Scramjet, your graphs didn't come out right. Here's what they look like on my computer:

They look ok when I open them.

[Arrowsmit]

Wonder why Scramjets graph looks funky on my PC?

Interesting TBF. Could you tell a SOP difference after smoothing your self tune? Would you post the VE graphs after you had it dyno tuned? Did you smooth those VE's too? If so, any felt improvement there?


VicW.

[Scramjet]

VicW,

You are not seeing things.  They look like sh** when printed to PDF.  I can't seem to get the same JPG's that you are getting.

What is the secret?

B

[Arrowsmit]

What is the secret?

No secret. Just save the jpg to a picture hosting site (I use Photobucket, but there are several), then right click on the picture there, copy the address for the img file, & then paste that address in your post here. There are other ways to post pictures but this way uses a minimum of this sites server capacity.

VicW.

[Herko]

Another method:

When graph is up in Tune Mode  Click Alt-Print Screen, Paste in to PowerPoint, Right click, Save Picture As... Select Jpeg, save to wherever...Desktop, My VE ScreenShots folder etc.

[Arrowsmit]

Ooops! I left out how to save the screen shot. Ya gotta do that before uploading to the host site. Thanks Herko!

VicW.

[FLTRI]

Another method:

When graph is up in Tune Mode  Click Alt-Print Screen, Paste in to PowerPoint, Right click, Save Picture As... Select Jpeg, save to wherever...Desktop, My VE ScreenShots folder etc.

John,
Just curious as to what build that VE map was developed for.
Bob

[Arrowsmit]

Hahahahaha

[Scramjet]

Thanks for the suggestions but...

I don't know why it will not work.  I cut and paste into PowerPoint, Word and other documents at work all the time.  The TTS graph and the print screen function just do not want to cooperate.  Works with other software on this computer but not with the MasterTune/show graph window.

The only thing that seems to work is to print to PDF from the graph window.

B

[FLTRI]

Thanks for the suggestions but...

I don't know why it will not work.  I cut and paste into PowerPoint, Word and other documents at work all the time.  The TTS graph and the print screen function just do not want to cooperate.  Works with other software on this computer but not with the MasterTune/show graph window.

The only thing that seems to work is to print to PDF from the graph window.

B

Gotta be something with your computer. You are the first I've heard of that has that problem. A call to Steve Cole may clear it up cause maybe he's run across it.

[Arrowsmit]

Try Ctrl/Prnt Scrn, then open up Paint & use the drop-down menu to paste it there. Save as jpg.

VicW.

[Scramjet]

OK, I think the Rainman has figured it out:

B

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[Arrowsmit]

Yeah!! Nice looking graphs too...but mine's got bigger tits.

VicW.

[Herko]

John,
Just curious as to what build that VE map was developed for.

Just a little horseplay for the screen shot demo.

[Steve Cole]

Sure, but bear in mind that I'm not near done w/em yet. Here ya go:

Vic, your graphs illustrate why I was unhappy with the TS software. The VE surface plot should not be all spiky like that. It indicates the algorithm he used to generate new VEs is purely cell based rather than interpolation along with a smoothing algorithm. The only thing you can do is smooth it by hand, or write you own VE generating software and just use the TS data logs, which is what I did. Unfortunately, I didn't save my spikey maps that I got from the TS, but here are the graphs using my software. The first two are when I was in the process of tuning. You can see that I had got through 30% throttle. The second two are the final VE graphs, which are nice and smooth. The only places I did any hand editing of the VE tables were the outliers where you can't collect data, i.e. low RPM/high TPS and high RPM/low TPS.


I am unsure what your doing but your graphs look nothing like what we get when using V-tune. If anyone would like to see what we get go to calibration AE176-000 and graph the VE tables. That calibration was done completely on the street with V-tune. It was our final test case prior to release of the product. It would appear to me from looking at what's been done that not enough data was gathered to finish a good VE table. Our alogrithms that are used are nothing simple at all and seem to work very well when following the instructions. We recommend that you run the V-tune process more than once and that you do not stop until the corrections shown in V-tune are less than 5 %. This typically takes 2 - 3 runs when using a dyno and 4 - 5 when using it on the street. Just remember that when tuning on the street or a closed coarse you only gather data for the area you rode in and those are the only areas that corrections are made in. If there is no data we make no changes to those areas. Just going in and adding smoothing over the missed areas isn't going to make it a right VE selection, so we chose not to do that.

[Herko]

Hi Steve, not sure you caught this an earlier post...but Vic's bike is a 2002, pre-Closed Loop era bike.

But, for a Close Loop V-Tunable bike, just to clarify, blending  in the VE tables is not recommended per the following from above?
"If there is no data we make no changes to those areas. Just going in and adding smoothing over the missed areas isn't going to make it a right VE selection, so we chose not to do that."

[Herko]

Steve, welcome to the new HTT BTW. Thanks for joining.

[Blackbaggr]

Welcome Steve... I'm new here too but I am on several other forums as well. I recently bought your product. I'm studying the material and will hopefully be installing and tuning soon. Thanks for making a good product (SERT) great (TTS). BTW..mines a 07 FLHTC so I'll be able to take full advantage of all of the features.

[Arrowsmit]

Steve, Welcome to HTT. I'm afraid there has been some misinterpretation here. I started this thread for us guys w/older bikes who are using TSII/Wego to collect AFR data for use w/your TTS tuner; so that we might compare results, swap advice, tips, etc. If it wasn't made clear that V-Tune was not being used or if TTS has in any way been shown in a bad light then I must apologize. That was surely never the intention.  


VicW.

[ToBeFrank]

Sure, but bear in mind that I'm not near done w/em yet. Here ya go:

Vic, your graphs illustrate why I was unhappy with the TS software. The VE surface plot should not be all spiky like that. It indicates the algorithm he used to generate new VEs is purely cell based rather than interpolation along with a smoothing algorithm. The only thing you can do is smooth it by hand, or write you own VE generating software and just use the TS data logs, which is what I did. Unfortunately, I didn't save my spikey maps that I got from the TS, but here are the graphs using my software. The first two are when I was in the process of tuning. You can see that I had got through 30% throttle. The second two are the final VE graphs, which are nice and smooth. The only places I did any hand editing of the VE tables were the outliers where you can't collect data, i.e. low RPM/high TPS and high RPM/low TPS.

I am unsure what your doing but your graphs look nothing like what we get when using V-tune. If anyone would like to see what we get go to calibration AE176-000 and graph the VE tables. That calibration was done completely on the street with V-tune. It was our final test case prior to release of the product. It would appear to me from looking at what's been done that not enough data was gathered to finish a good VE table.

Well since you included my post in your reply I'm assuming you're talking to me. I have no idea how you can infer "that not enough data was gathered to finish a good VE table" from comparing my graph to the AE176 graph. Of course they're going to look different. I have different heads, different cams, different volume, and different exhaust... and none of those are stock. Frankly, I'm amazed you'd even try to make that comparison. Attached is my dyno tuned front cylinder graph. Notice how the shape of the graph is almost the same as my wideband street tuning graph?

Our alogrithms that are used are nothing simple at all and seem to work very well when following the instructions.

I realize you're trying to sell your product, and yes, your software does a good job, but give me a break. What you're doing is simple statistics, it isn't anything new. Heck, the MegaSquirt community was doing this way before you released V-Tune. You don't even have to do the calculating of the new VEs or any smoothing on them because the ECM does it for you (VE New). Let me guess... you fit the data to the cells and then do a weighted average. That's dumbing it down a lot, but that's pretty much all there is to it.

If there is no data we make no changes to those areas. Just going in and adding smoothing over the missed areas isn't going to make it a right VE selection, so we chose not to do that.

That might work if you're starting with a map that's pretty close to the configuration on your bike, but I highly doubt a huge difference in VEs between two adjacent cells would be considered ok. For those of us with builds, that's not unusual when you can't collect data in the outliers.

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[ToBeFrank]

If it wasn't made clear that V-Tune was not being used or if TTS has in any way been shown in a bad light then I must apologize.

No, he was saying my software couldn't possibly be as good as his V-Tune.

[FLTRI]

"I realize you're trying to sell your product, and yes, your software does a good job, but give me a break. What you're doing is simple statistics, it isn't anything new. Heck, the MegaSquirt community was doing this way before you released V-Tune. You don't even have to do the calculating of the new VEs or any smoothing on them because the ECM does it for you (VE New). Let me guess... you fit the data to the cells and then do a weighted average. That's dumbing it down a lot, but that's pretty much all there is to it."

Nothing like making Steve feel welcome. GEEZ!

Steve,
No matter anyone says, you are the man because you have singlehandedly made my job a pleasure to come to each day.

Welcome Steve!!!

[Steve Cole]

Well it seems some of you think that it an easy task and that's all well and good but why is it that no one else could do it prior to our product hitting the market? If it was really that simple everyone would have done it long ago. We've been doing this since 1988 so it's nothing new at all but it's not been in this market before. Now as far as exactly how we do it I'm not going there. If someone else wants to write there own software great go do it but do not come here and say ours doesn't work properly when it does. What I tried to point out is that the AE176-000 file was created by using the V-tune data only with proper data collection done on the street. Look at the shape of the VE tables to see how they come out. Some are saying that the V-tune program doesn't work properly and I beg to differ. If your graph of the VE table doesn't smoothed in then it points to not enough data was gathered to fill in the table completely. I do not care if the motor has been changed or not the program will bring a nicely shaped VE table for what your combination needs without the spikes that are being shown in some of your previous post. I've done 110 cu in motors with 258 cams, ported heads, 10.5 : 1 compression ratio and RB racing pipes in a 2008 FL and the graphs of the VE tables look the same as the AE176-000, nice and smooth. This was all done on the street without the dyno. I am currently working on a 131 cu in motor and it too is coming around just as all the other I've worked with have. I can use the dyno here and make it really easy on myself but in order to continue to test our products we still do some the same way you the customer has to do it. This allows us to see what we can improve and that our product works as advertised.

[Blackbaggr]

Thanks again Steve. I trust my 07 will run better than it ever has before. I believe in the product.