REPRINT FROM OLD HTT: BASE GASKET WEEPING

[ClassicRider2002]

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS A REPRINT TOPIC FROM "OLD" HTT

I have saved many great topical discussions as "links" over the years and would hate to see these lost, so I am reprinting this TOPIC here, which may "perhaps" help some.

TOPIC:  BASE GASEKT WEEPING  04-20-08

From: dweave3  (Original Message) Sent: 4/20/2008 12:48 PM    Message 1 of 30 in Discussion
I have a 95 heritage with around 35000 miles and the base gasket on the rear cylinder is weeping. How much should I worry about this? I am planning a ride from Indiana to Florida, should I change it before I go? How much should I expect to spend at a shop to get it repaired? Thanks

[ClassicRider2002]

From: JohnS_Rosamond_CA Sent: 4/20/2008 1:35 PM   Message 2 of 30 in Discussion
A bike can actually weep for quite a while, but once it turns into as real "leak" it can get messy fast.  If I was planning on going that far, I would get it fixed before hand.  With so few miles on the engine, you should not need anything done to the rings or cylinders, just replace the gasket.  Also, for your year, Harley used a crappy paper gasket; I suggest that you use the metal aftermarket gaskets.  How much will a shop charge?  Can't say.  You may want to have both base gaskets replaced at the same time. 


From: d-dog Sent: 4/20/2008 2:39 PM   Message 3 of 30 in Discussion
My 92 "weeped" for about 30,000 miles before I fixed it.  I waited till something else forced me to tear into it.  I blew a headgasket at around 40K, so I did a full top end then.  Mine never really did drip much, just got some oil around the area.
Dog

From: norton8502 Sent: 4/20/2008 4:41 PM   Message 4 of 30 in Discussion
My '90 FLHS base gasket as been weeping for 54,000 miles.


From: Justpassingas Sent: 4/20/2008 5:22 PM   Message 5 of 30 in Discussion
my 98RK has been weeping 50K plus on the rear and I've notice the front has started to weep a little too.....Save your money...if it was mine I wouldn't worry or fix it unless it was a real bad leak and making a mess or the top end needs to come off for some other reason....
 

From: HD_Wrench Sent: 4/20/2008 7:49 PM   Message 6 of 30 in Discussion
Dealer
6-7 hundred
Our shop charges 250.00 plus HD parts
but were in PA

Weeps can turn to full fledged leaks at any given time
I would fix it .  Rick
 

From: Jiggyfingers Sent: 4/21/2008 5:04 AM   Message 7 of 30 in Discussion
my base gaskets weep as well but then again my bike is 21 years old. I will will do a top end by next year. Once I am in there I may do some performance mods, nothing too extreme but I figure once its apart then and there is the time to do everything at once.


From: pappyfreebird Sent: 4/21/2008 7:13 AM   Message 8 of 30 in Discussion 
im wid hd wrench they kin turn bad in a hurry n they kin last longtime   bout 400 at n indy


From: Willymax4 Sent: 4/21/2008 11:03 AM   Message 9 of 30 in Discussion
my sporty weeps at the rear base every spring after being lais up all winter, however after a hundred miles or so it dries up and all is well.  i clean it up real good during the first wash of the season and it stays dry all summer.
 

From: Mickster998 Sent: 4/22/2008 10:00 AM   Message 10 of 30 in Discussion
I aggree with John S...
For peace of mind on a long trip I would fix it..
I would be worrying and watching it and about the time I quit watching it would pump out oil all over.
And it would go in the middle of nowhere not close to dealers, bars, or places of comfort.
JMHO Mickster


From: roadking7140 Sent: 4/22/2008 6:17 PM  Message 11 of 30 in Discussion
If you do open it up, might as well drill oil return hole larger while it's apart.

[ClassicRider2002]

   

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 4/23/2008 12:42 PM    Message 12 of 30 in Discussion
dweave3...

First of all you have received some great input above....everyone's personal experience and expectations are all different.....as you can see some will ride with it finding it perhaps only a bit of a nuisance while others seem to deem it a more important matter......It really comes down to your own feelings about the matter....along with the feelings of your buddies or others riding with you if you end up having a further problem that might affect other's touring with you if indeed others are going with you on the trip you mentioned.

Anytime JohnS Rosamond steps in to comment I pay particular attention to his thoughts....they have always led me well, just like Samuel's did as well as Hippo's.

Given all of that I would take a bit more of an active / aggressive approach to your matter given you mentioned that you are going for a trip for as long as you mentioned.

You asked about what would a shop charge for this....and appeared to get a pretty solid answer. 

When it comes to these evos there are some very strong recommendations that one use "hylomar" or even "aviation gasket cement" as Samuel always recommended doing on the base gaskets to stop the "weeping" leading to "leaking" situations inherent to the evo engine.  There are also some very strong recommendations in using particular gaskets as well....some of which indeed include HD others being James, and perhaps even Cometic as appropriate sources for the individual gaskets used in this application.

I had a particular rocker gasket problem on my FXR2 back in 05 and JohnS was very helpful with input as well as others....

If you were to tackle this job by yourself you could expect 3-5 hours of work in front of you from beginning to end....the shops all have their short cuts....and are typically faster than private parties.....but the satisfaction of doing it yourself is inmeasureable.

Regards,

"Classic"


From: evilvtwin Sent: 4/23/2008 7:08 PM   Message 13 of 30 in Discussion
If  you do it , and you will have to eventually, then its done. If you dont and it lets go on your trip youll mess up an awsome trip.
 

From: smittyon66 Sent: 4/23/2008 7:46 PM   Message 14 of 30 in Discussion
I just changed the base gaskets on my bike. I've always used oem gaskets in the past (on other bikes). 
I'm trying the James metal base and rocker gaskets that come pre-printed with sealer this time. Anyone else have any luck with them? 
http://www.jpcycles.com/productdetail.aspx?PID=431-479
     

From: d-dog Sent: 4/23/2008 8:55 PM   Message 15 of 30 in Discussion
dweave
If you do elect to hold off, one thing to keep in mind  is to be sure your bike is warmed up before you get the revs up.  That's one thing that helped to blow out those early gaskets - building up that oil pressure in the motor before the oil was warm.
This whole discussion makes me think I'm at work.  We're always discussing the individual's perception and acceptance of personal risk.  One person's perception of unacceptable risk is complelely different that another's (why does one worker wear safety glasses and another doesn't - it's the same risk to both). It's the same here.  Many, many folks go thousands of miles with weeping gaskets, and others won't - personal risk. I personally think if you monitor the situation, take it easy, don't rev it cold, it'll probably go thousands of miles - but then I'm not taking the risk, you are.  It's way easy to recommend you change it - yep, that's the right thing. But can you really ride it the way it is?  I'd say yea, but you'd have to watch it.  Again, Just my opinion -I've had 4 evos, 3 leakers, and none had a catastrophic failure.  Anyway, just my ramblings to try to balance the topic.  Good luck.
Dog


From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 4/24/2008 9:15 AM   Message 16 of 30 in Discussion
Smittyon66
I just changed the base gaskets on my bike. I've always used oem gaskets in the past (on other bikes). I'm trying the James metal base and rocker gaskets that come pre-printed with sealer this time. Anyone else have any luck with them?

Smittyon66....
There are several options I have found that seem to work well in these applications and that I have personally used during repairs resulting from some gasket failures on my evo. 

I too have incorporated the one piece metal James gasket with the bead for the location of the rocker cover gasket or as some refer to it as the rocker base gasket.  I haven't been all the way down to the cylinder base gasket but if I were to I would also use the james metal base gasket.  I might turn to a metal MLS cometic gasket for the cylinder head perhaps using either a .030 or .040.  I however have read good things about the Geninue James metal cylinder head gasket as well.   Where I would deviate from the James Genuine Gaskets back to the OEM would be located within the rocker boxes themselves, the rubber (neoprene) upper, lower, and inner rocker gaskets along with the washers which are used to keep the rocker covers secured.  Personal experience with the Geniune James "rubber / neoprene" gasket resulted in a upper rocker gasket failure, although I will say that James did stand behind their product and provided a complete replacement kit for both cylinders free of charge and even asked me to return the "failed" gasket so they might determine the reason....never heard anything from them.  I will just say that I have to agree with the historical comments made by JohnS on this topic that the OEM "rubber / neoprene" rocker gaskets seem to be better designed to fit the "channels" that they must align with inside the rockers.  Also "historical" evidence points to making sure one should place "hylomar" or "aviation gasket cement" very lightly covering the metal cylinder base gasket, the cylinder head gasket and finally the rocker base / rocker cover gasket.  When I did my "gasket" repair in 05 I at the location of the rocker base/cover gasket it I placed "hylomar" upon it and I have had no issues.

Hopefully this helps others down the road.

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: JBarrettB Sent: 4/24/2008 9:35 AM   Message 17 of 30 in Discussion
I have used paper and metal gaskets to remedy cylinder base leaks. The key to success is to insure that the cylinder base surfaces are flush. Over time they will become fish mouthed and require resurfacing.   JB 


From: dave_9113 Sent: 4/24/2008 10:34 AM   Message 18 of 30 in Discussion
I know there are many combinations for this solution.  From reading all above, I'm going to try this combination. 
lower, inner, upper rocker gaskets = OEM gasket from Harley.  Cylinder head and base gasket = James gasket.   Maybe also some gasket cement.

3-5 hours?  Man, I'm thinking more like a day or two for me.  I'm slow.  Can you put on the base gasket without having to pull the cylinder all the way out?  I would like to skip putting cyclinder back onto piston if I can get away with it, or is it just much simplier to pull the cyclinder totally off.   dave


From: pilgrim980722 Sent: 4/24/2008 10:49 AM   Message 19 of 30 in Discussion
Dave, first off I want to endorse d-dogs point about engine warmup. Until you get some heat into the cylinders you're not going to have full clamping pressure on either the head or base gasket and it will be prone to leak if you put a bunch of pressure into the crankcase with heavy throttle use. Once it starts to leak it probably won't stop, although I did, one time, get one to stop by loosening and retorqueing the head bolts. I wouldn't count on it, but it's worth a try.

If you want to see what I'm talking about, and if you get real cold weather, start your bike when it's cold-soaked. Watch around the cylinder/head gasket and quite often you'll see a puff of combustion gas pop out somewhere. Nothing wrong (probably) if that happens, but it does tell a story.

As to taking the cylinders off, yes, you must if you're going to replace the base gaskets.

If you are very, very careful, though, it's possible to take the pistons off with the cylinders by - well, you figure it out. It takes a pretty good setup and steady hands to do it. Personally, assuming I have a decent ring compressor, I'd rather just go ahead and pull 'em separately. Doing that lets you get a good look at the piston and cylinder surfaces and ring condition. You can also get the carbon off the piston crown while you're at it.

If you do pull the cylinders off the pistons make sure you have rags stuffed in the top of the crankcase before you lift the cylinder off the piston. A busted ring or pin retainer clip dropping into the crankcase can ruin your whole damn week.  Pilgrim 


From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 4/24/2008 11:45 AM   Message 20 of 31 in Discussion
dave 9113....I'm going to try this combination.  lower, inner, upper rocker gaskets = OEM gasket from Harley.  Cylinder head and base gasket = James gasket.   Maybe also some gasket cement.
3-5 hours?  Man, I'm thinking more like a day or two for me.  I'm slow.  Can you put on the base gasket without having to pull the cylinder all the way out?  I would like to skip putting cyclinder back onto piston if I can get away with it, or is it just much simplier to pull the cyclinder totally off.

dave....
You are absolutely right if it's your first time it's not about speed....and as long as you have no dead lines who cares how long it takes....  Depending on your bike perhaps a good time to do front fork oil as well or anything else that affects the front end since you are working on it anyway......

I am no expert.....others are much more qualified to speak to this than myself however from personal experience you will need to remove the cylinders from the bike in order to get the old base cylinder gasket removed as well as installing the new ones. (Assuming you are doing both cylinders) When you get to this stage briefly having 6 hands is even better than 4.  I personally transferred a 95" set up that was in a 2003 fxdl and transferred it over to my 2002 RKC and then moved the "stock" set up that was in my 2002 RKC back over to my 2003 FXDL inclusive of  pistons, cylinders, heads and rocker boxes and cams all as a complete unit.....So essentially I took apart two engines at the same time. (Now back on topic)

Once you get to the base cylinder after the cylinder head is removed having a couple of helpers is great especially if one needs a break.  Now you will need to get some new cir-clips and have some real patience.  Removing the cylinders from the bike is the easy part putting them back on to the pistons and securing the wrist pin is the more difficult part.  Essentially you have to lift the cylinder smoothly and high enough while NOT seperating the piston from the bottom of the cylinder to get to the wrist pin so that you can release the cir clip and then slip out the wrist pin which allows you to remove the piston while it remains in the cylinder, thus avoiding the need to "re"ring or "re"hone the cylinder walls.  Depending upon of course the condition of your pistons this may or may not be an issue (mileage).  As you can see this is why some folks put this process off for so long as it becomes very "tempting" because of how close one is to putting in "new" pistons and so forth at the same time of taking care of a base gasket "weep".....lol.  I would say that a minimum of 4 hands is preferable to this process.....while I am sure there are many that would do this themselves I for one wouldn't.....I looked at the process as "surgery" to a mechanic who does this every day it is every day life and no big deal.....but I LOVE working on my own bike and with the assistance from others here it becomes possible.....

The real "trick" to the procedure above is that "fine" line of pulling up the cylinder wall "just" high enough with out pulling it too high and seperating the piston from the cylinder.  Lifting them straight and so forth.  Also if you decide upon this method, make sure that you place some clean towels into the cylinder holes BEFORE you attempt to even remove the first circlip as the cir clip is sure to slip out of your needle nose pliers at least once and "potentially" take off like a canyon and the last thing you want is to go "fishing:" inside the cylinders for it.  Also it wouldn't hurt to purchase 4 new circlips just in case a couple fly off your pliers.....by the way it is possible to refasten the circlip without a "special" tool....it just takes some patience and good lighting.....hence the help of the 3rd pair of hands.....It can seem to be an overwhelming "chore" when reading this but it really isn't that difficult over all, it's really more about taking your time and being patient.....and I might add it's a lot of fun if you haven't done it before.....

I am sure it goes without saying to properly prepare all surfaces for the new gaskets as well.....

Oh and you didn't mention it probably just a typo, but I would also use a steel "ONE PIECE" Genuine James Gasket for the rocker "base" or "cover" gasket as well....

Regards,

"Classic"


From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 4/24/2008 12:00 PM   Message 21 of 30 in Discussion
ooopssss....lol....... I was off playing with my grandson for awhile and didn't refresh the screen to see that Pilgrim addressed your questions and went ahead and typed up a response to your questions......good job..PILGRIM....<~~~~in My best John Wayne voice.....

Regards,

"Classic"


From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 4/24/2008 12:24 PM   Message 22 of 30 in Discussion
dave9113~~  "........Maybe also some gasket cement."

Based upon historical evidence I would change the "maybe" to "MUST" or "WILL" and whether you decide upon the aviation gasket cement or hylomar is your preference and pleasure....the key is DEFINITELY using it.....

I realize that others will say if you are needing to use some sort of "gasket" dressing" then you have other issues.....but I can not stress enough how folks like Samuel and JohnS took their time to type over and over here in the evo section through out the years about how successful this procedure was for the "evo" engine and keeping "failures" at bay.....Also it was always stated to not use it as a "silicone" type of application reflecting that it needed to be used "lightly" and not as a heavy layer.....I know that when it comes to the "cylinder" head gasket and using a MLS (Multi Layer Steel) gasket from Cometic that Hippo has always said that he puts them on Twin Cams "dry" but I am not sure what his position (not that his is the only one per say) would be for an evo application.....But having personally put it on as I have said previously on the one piece Rocker "Cover" / "Base" Gasket and having it perform successfully for a few years now I wouldn't hesitate erroring on the side of applying to all three of these specific gaskets....But since this "thread" is primarily dealing with "weeping" from an EVO "base" "cylinder" gasket I wouldn't go through the effort of all this work not to heed the spoken advice that I have read throughout the years......

In fact since so many posts dealt with "weeping" base gaskets for the evos in 2001, 2002, 2003, & 2004....you rarely see threads about this topic anymore as more and more people probably began taking the recommendations and applying some sort of gasket "dressing" to their "weeping" / "leaking" issues but that's only a hunch I have no empirical evidence of such.....

Regards,

"Classic"


From: d-dog Sent: 4/24/2008 1:10 PM   Message 23 of 30 in Discussion
Just a comment on JBarrettB's note on making sure the bottom surface of the cylinder is flush.  That can be a major reason for the leakage.  When you get yours off, you might note that the steel liner protrudes lower than the aluminum.  That's not all that  bad once the engine is warm, but when cold, prior to the aluminum growing, it provides a leak path.  I had one that was severe enough to have put on a mill and "turned down" at or below the aluminum portion.  There was a great HD mechanic/machinist in Walla Walla that promoted this fix for years and never had one come back.
Dog


From: dave_9113 Sent: 4/24/2008 1:34 PM   Message 24 of 30 in Discussion
Thank you all for your inputs and I will apply to my fix.  I'm a big believer on warm ups.  Never had issue on my 94 Dyna, but my 89 Bagger base leak was inherited.  I was going to wait on this fix, but have a couple of long trips planned on the Evo and thought I should get it right.  Don't need new rings or cylinder honed (low miles), so will try the careful taking off circlip part.  I've heard good things about plastic plugs to replace circlips.  Any comments on these?

Anyway, it's good to have an army of experts at your fingertips for us do it yourself guys.  I do miss the days that I could call up Samuel in Florida and shoot the "Potty mouth" about military and bike things.   dave
     

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 4/24/2008 2:42 PM   Message 25 of 30 in Discussion
dave 9113....

My "knowledge" of Samuel.....will always be limited to voices I hear in my head from what I would imagine his voice to be like as I never had the opportunity to visit with him.....or to the postings I have copied and pasted for "tips" on what to do with my bikes....By the time I came on board to this site he was pretty much fairly quiet here....probably do to many things and some related to his health....but to anyone who hasn't hit the "PREVIOUS" button and went all the way back to the beginning of HTT in 2000 I believe...., they are missing out on some great "techincally" based reflections that could fill an entire book on how to manage the ownership of your harley....I would MOST definitely encourage any reader or user of the board to go back to the beginning of HTT and take a couple of months of nightly reading and discover just how many useful tips there are to be had for maintaining as well as learning about one's bike.....picking out topics that are the most interesting you....I have over 500 pages of notes that I have catagorized and review when situations arrise on my bikes....it's like a "how to" publication.....

The funny thing is if we all did that there would be a lot less "techincal" posting because it's all been written about before...lol......it's just a new day with the same answers.....but that's quite ok.....there are some amazing people that have visited this site and offered countless hours of help to many and to them I say .....and it's all at our finger tips...

Anyway.....my point is good for you to have had the "opportunity" to have such conversations.....for me it's "aviation cement" wherever I can deem fit to use it and think back on him and his writings.....hey I even after 3 years of using the "stuff" have a buddy that's beginning to use it now as well.....as he has seen I have had no ill effects from it.....LAUGHING!!!!!  and it's not just for cylinder base gaskets but bolts as well and etc.......Anyway I digress......on with the thread.....

Regards,

"Classic"

psst.....have no knowledge of the "plastic plugs"........

[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 4/24/2008 3:05 PM   Message 26 of 30 in Discussion
 
........and hey I would be remissed if I did not take a moment to mention JohnS Rosamond's much appreciated posts over the years on a plethora of topics.  His knowledge is incredible and his energy to help has always been above and beyond.....While I have no intended purpose in dismissing anyone's contributions, it's just that when it comes to evo's I have found his insights worthy of my money in listening to recommendations....Of course no one is error free 100% of the time and there are many here qualified to offer their insights.....but JohnS has maintained a level of consistant input over the years which makes him stand out to me....and I for one have benefited from his knowledge....

To JohnS.....            <~~~~and I don't even drink....ok I do drink O'Douls...lol

Regards,

"Classic"

psssst now I am done "digressing"........

 
From: dave_9113 Sent: 4/24/2008 9:23 PM   Message 27 of 30 in Discussion
Classic,

You are right on!  I second your comment on JohnS.  He has been very consistent with quality and quantity of information.  I've been coming in and out of HTT for over 10 years.  The reason I come and go is that because of this site, I've been able to take care of my bike so well that it has served me well.  I always like fixing things myself, but don't get much hands on experience because my "Potty mouth" doesn't break...  Not bragging, just luck.  I can remember the times that we all wish prices start dropping on bikes, so we could pick up a second one.  Well, the time is NOW and that's what I did.  Got myself a geezerglide and loving it.  I had to do maintenace on it, but nothing big.  Was holding out to fix the base gasket issue when I need a top end, but I think I'll just knock in out here soon. 

Again there's many sites around, but this one is top on my list.  Good day. 
dave


From: Mickster998 Sent: 4/26/2008 8:17 AM   Message 28 of 30 in Discussion
Thumbs up to this thread, Samuel, and especially John S..
His ability to comprehend problems and describe solutions is incredible.
If Samuel had a student who graduated with a BS (Bachelor of Samuel) it would be John S.
For anyone wise enough to hit "Previous" there is a great source of info.
Too bad there's not an "index"
IMHO
Mickster


From: JohnS_Rosamond_CA Sent: 4/26/2008 11:39 AM   Message 29 of 30 in Discussion
Hey, quit saying nice things about me behind my back.
My philosophy is to help those who would like to do the work themselves, so that they have some idea of how the machine works.  Why know it if you can't share it with someone else?
   

From: mojomocme Sent: 4/29/2008 1:02 AM   Message 30 of 30 in Discussion
Hello,I have a real easy fix that I did to my rear cylinder when it started weeping.The presure is pretty low so I went and bought the best high temp silicone I could find (a copper base product) I cleaned the area which will most likely be the left rear on the rear cylinder wich was my case with kerosen and compresed air. I then put on multible layers and it is still holding back the weeping after 20,000 miles. Mojomocme

[ClassicRider2002]

Anything added beyond this point is new information.

Regards,

"Classic"


I FOUND THIS POST IN ANOTHER THREAD AND I FEEL IT'S WORTH MENTIONING HERE:

From: Harleyguy5731 Sent: 3/20/2008 2:41 PM
Evo's have base gaskets, Twin Cam's have "O" rings.  The reason that base gaskets leak on EVO's is that the heads were either not torqued down properly when they were installed either that or the rider does not warm the engine up sufficiently before getting into the throttle.  The aluminum heads grow as they get hot and as they grow the seal the thin base gaskets.  If the heads were torqued down beyound spec's as the jugs expanded they would tear out the bolts.  When a rider gets into the throttle before the jugs have expanded sufficiently, the head gasket will get trashed from pressure being built up in the cylinder, Twin cams tend to require less warming up that the EVO's, however they also do require some warming up to allow the jugs to grow and to seal the "O" rings,  I hope this helps!  Harleyguy5731

[dave_9113]

Classic,

Thanks for saving these invaluable discussions.  Didn't they figure out how to transfer the HTT search to this site? 

dave

[ClassicRider2002]

Thanks for saving these invaluable discussions.  Didn't they figure out how to transfer the HTT search to this site?

dave_9113~~~

You know what, the last I heard which was 3-4 weeks ago, someone said you could go to a particular website and that site would pull up any "THREAD" ever saved....I guess I didn't want to take a chance.....so I thought I would bring over the "THREADS" that I have found to be informative and helpful, then at least I am sure I can always find them......besides....all too often someone has a new question which in which some of these older "THREADS" can author a response for.....

Regards,

"Classic"