REPRINT FROM OLD HTT: JAMES GASKETS THREE THUMBS UP

[ClassicRider2002]

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS A REPRINT TOPIC FROM "OLD" HTT

I have saved many great topical discussions as "links" over the years and would hate to see these lost, so I am reprinting this TOPIC here, which may "perhaps" help some.

TOPIC:  JAMES GASKETS THREE THUMBS UP  07-13-2006


From: ClassicRider2002  (Original Message) Sent: 7/13/2005 12:10 AM   Message 1 of 21 in Discussion
Hello....

I thought I would note a big        's up to James Genuine Gaskets.

If you followed my post "OIL IS EVERYWHERE ANY IDEAS"  in July then you are aware that I have apparently blown out my front cylinder's rocker box cover gasket and what is known as:

1) OEM HD# 17356-92 the upper rocker box cover gasket. 
2) OEM HD# 17536-92  the James part # is JGI 17356-92 and the drags specialities part # is DS-174419. 

I called James Gaskets to talk with them about this and they have stepped forward and are sending at no cost their part #JGI 17042-92-X  which is also Drag Specialities part # DS-173316.  This kit provides everything you need to do the job such as all the gaskets to do both cylinders, includes 2 umbrella valves, and also SOMETHING THAT IS FAIRLY NEW that perhaps some of you do not know about.....

The cylinder gaskets that normally come from Harley in seperate right and left gaskets.....which for my bike (FXR2) are OEM part mumbers # 16778-84B & 16779-84D and are made of a very very thin paper, no one seems to use them anymore most are using the 2 metal James Gaskets. Of course Cometic Gaskets is making a singular gasket that works and replaces the need for two gaskets....but if you want to be a James Gaskets "fan" then perhaps you don't know that:

For the past year James Gaskets has been making a singular metal gasket part # is JGI-16779-99-X and the drag specialities part # is DS-174203.  I would assume if you are doing rocker boxes you will want to do them all so the key part # JGI 17042-92-X and the Drag Specialities # is DS-173316 which were mentioned above as a "kit" part number.

I just thought James Gaskets did a very nice thing.....and they are even sending me a "call tag" and UPS is going to pick up my old gasket so they can look at what caused it to blow out.....So how is that for a positive....mean while my independent dealer where I bought the gaskets to begin with was willing to simply sell me another $65.00 worth of gaskets.....and was not aware of the "newer" singular James Gaskets <~~~and since I had not installed the new umbrella valves when I did the rocker gaskets a couple of weeks ago and because of the problem I am experiencing with the front cylinder I thought I might as well do both the rocker boxes over and get them right with the new umbrella valves as well.

The cost to me both times has been only the parts, as the labor I am personally doing.....so hopefully the problem was just something freakish with the gaskets.....I suppose this will let me know soon.....

The person at .James Gaskets that I dealt with was very nice and pleasant to work with and HELPFUL....and I didn't even expect the offer and it was made to me......which I thought was GREAT!!!!!!  So I thought I should pass it on to you all...and also let those of you thinking about Rocker Box Gaskets know that they certainly are standing behind their product...and also to let you know that you can get that "singular" cylinder metal gasket if you desire to....

OK NOW FOR A QUESTION:

James Gaskets also now makes a Cam Cover Gasket made of metal with paper facings on 2 sides and is .036" thick and has a bead which apparently has better torque retention.....my question is would you go with this gasket the part number is:

OEM# 25225-93B The James Gasket Part # is JGI-25225-93-XM  and the drag specialities part# is DS-20112093

or James also makes the gasket but in paper and it's .31" thick....

So I am wondering of these two which one you would choose?

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: 94fxstc2 Sent: 7/13/2005 12:21 AM   Message 2 of 21 in Discussion
go with the updated one only makes sense


From: bikedochd Sent: 7/13/2005 2:28 PM   Message 3 of 21 in Discussion
HD also has metal gaskets for the bottom rocker box for the last year or so and fit back to 84 they work A-1


From: JohnS_Rosamond_CA Sent: 7/13/2005 5:09 PM   Message 4 of 21 in Discussion
Some gaskets from Harley are actually very good, while others can be substituted.  Two gaskets that I go to Harley for are the Primary gasket (for the outer primary cover) and the rocker box gaskets themselves.  I have used Harley's and James paper gaskets for the gear cover and never had a problem.  But it is highly recommended for the gear cover and primary that you use loc-tite 242 (blue) when reinstalling these two covers, and that you tighten the covers in a fashion that equalizes torque on the cover (so like an X pattern, or spiral from the centre).  John S,


From: triplate1 Sent: 7/13/2005 5:37 PM   Message 5 of 21 in Discussion
JohnS_Rosamond_CA ....do you use any kind of sealant with the rocker cover gaskets ??..you trust the plain rubber ??


From: 96EVOWG Sent: 7/13/2005 8:54 PM Message 6 of 21 in Discussion
I replaced my rocker cover gaskets last month with HD kit using metal gaskets and no leaks. I never use sealant of any kind, that's what the gasket is for.  Kurt

[ClassicRider2002]

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 7/14/2005 12:16 AM   Message 7 of 21 in Discussion
bikedochd...
What is the HDpart#____________for the one piece or singular "metal" base gasket for the bottom rocker cover if you have it easily available?

I believe for the FXR3, there is infact a 1 Piece "metal" singular base gasket for the bottom rocker cover OEM# 16774-86D which you would think would also fit my FXR2 logically.  Anyone have any input on this?

From: triplate1
JohnS_Rosamond_CA ....do you use any kind of sealant with the rocker cover gaskets ??..you trust the plain rubber ??

Excellent question triplate1

.....I am interested in knowing this answer as well.....I have had some input that perhaps it is a good idea to add a "dab" of hylomar to the corners just to keep those "rubber" gaskets in place.....what do you think John about this as well? ? ? ? ? ?      just enough to barely keep it in place......although I do appreciate what 96EVOWG has said that he did his recently and added nothing.....

I also would love to know the answer to this.....

When you read the service manual it says to remove the gas tank completely and also to remove the front motor mount which will result in rotating the front cylinder rocker box slightly especially if you remove the front exhaust pipe from the front cylinder allowing the entire engine an additional couple of inches of rotation forward resulting in the lowering of the front cylinder even further...( I happen to be combining the repair of my rocker box gaskets with the installation of my new EVL~3010 cam, the front exhaust needs to removed to allow me access to the cam case anyway but I am still curious).....Since I have done the rocker boxes once that was what I did....heck I about have this gas tank thing down to about 20 minutes to get it off and the motor mount a little bit more time....

I recently went to my local HD dealership and one of the mechanics there has designed a specific machined engineered nut that has a hex head center which allows this nut to precisely fit over the top of a rocker box bolt and then lowers on to it because of the way it was machined and has 5/8" 6pt outside diameter allowing you to slip that on and then use either 5/8" or a 12 mm wrench to take the 8 rocker box top cover bolts off without having to fit a hex head allen wrench on to those bolts...you then can use a crows foot attachment to your torque wrench to torque the bolts down....on the FXR frame unfortunately there is very very very little space between the bottom of the frame and the rocker box covers.....making it extremely difficult to access I believe 3 of the top rocker box bolts.....so...my question is what's the secret.....I know you can put a tennis ball or something soft that will hold up the bottom of the tank.....but is that how you professionals do it....for the life of me I don't see how these rocker box covers can be removed while the tank is still on the bike and the front motor mount is not removed......ok.....and secrets or tips...or should I just remove the tank and remove the front motor mount and get to work? ? ? ? ?

Thanks!!!!

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: JohnS_Rosamond_CA Sent: 7/14/2005 2:53 AM   Message 8 of 21 in Discussion
One of the reasons that I prefer to buy the Hraley rocker gaskets is that they seem to have a superiour shape.  Other brands don't seem to be cut quite right and will not fit well into the gasket channel.  So, no I do not use any liquid gasket to try and keep the gasket in place.  If you are using an inferiour gasket, you may have to, but when that gasket heats up, you might end up with a pinch, or a split.  Never had trouble like that with the HD gaskets.

On getting to and removing the rear rocker.  Yes, I almost always remove the gas tank completely.  If I am trying to hurry up, I may use a piece of 2x4 and shove it under the tank (after removing all of the bolts that hold it to the frame of course).  But you're really asking for paint damage against the steering head.  Yes, when doing a rear (or both) rockers on a rubber mount, I always remove the front motor mount, but you don't have to remove the exhaust pipe(s).  To actually remove the two allen head bolts on the left side of the rear rocker (hardest to get to), I use a standard allen key that I have cut down.  However, you will get to a point where the allen will no longer fit and you will still have a few threads left.  At this point (if I can't get it out with my fingers), I'll use a set of bull nose pliers to finish unthreading them.  You can put tape on the top of the rocker box to help prevent scratching, or you can stick a rag under the pliers.

John S,  

[ClassicRider2002]

From: Spectre5555 Sent: 7/14/2005 7:37 AM    Message 9 of 21 in Discussion
I am using the metal HD gaskets for the rockers.  I don't use sealant on any of my gaskets.  If your mating surfaces are clean and not nicked or warped, then you don't need sealant.  The HD primary gasket does have a small amount of sealant already applied to it.  It helps hold it in place if you remove it later and want to reuse it.  I've reused mine a few times with no leaks.


From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 7/14/2005 10:39 AM   Message 10 of 21 in Discussion
John S.....
Thanks for your input.....  that was great input.....I appreciate it...exactly the detail I was looking for.......you talked about it perfectly!!!! 

I just know if I were to take my bike to one independent mechanic locally they would not remove the gas tank or the front motor mount.....and as I said I can't understand how they can get in there to work and really torque anything...(unless torquing isn't all that important)....., specifically on my bike because of the height of the rocker box and the bottom of the frame, even with this specifically designed nut I talked about above, because with the nut you do not need as much height as you would with an allen head wrench even though you cut it down...because this nut actually goes into the bolt unlike an allen wrench that still has the angle comming up and out....if that makes sense....amazing.....
From: Spectre5555
"I am using the metal HD gaskets for the rockers"
Hey....you are back....lol....thanks for your input....but Spectre three of those gaksets are rubber for the rocker box, so you must be referring to the cylinder base rocker cover gasket......as the metal one Or are you saying you are only using HD for the cylinder base gasket for the rockers.....which is now a one piece "metal" gasket?

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: Spectre5555 Sent: 7/14/2005 12:08 PM   Message 11 of 21 in Discussion
I was referring to the bottom rocker box gasket (on the top of the cylinders).  The "cylinder base" gasket is the one at the bottom of the cylinder, between the cylinder and the engine cases.  Don't get them confused... they are two different animals.  The bottom rocker box gasket is the only one that is made either with paper or metal.  The others rocker box gaskets are always rubber.

As for your other comment.... I don't see how you can easily change the gaskets without pulling the tank.  It might be possible, but it will be very difficult to get to the screws and to get everything aligned properly during assembly.  It only takes a couple of minutes to pull the tanks, so why wrestle with it when you can pull the tanks and have everything out in the open?


lFrom: Dmented Sent: 7/14/2005 12:22 PM   Message 12 of 21 in Discussion
Spectre555, " The HD primary gasket does have a small amount of sealant already applied to it.  It helps hold it in place if you remove it later and want to reuse it.  I've reused mine a few times with no leaks." 

Is this the teflon coated metal gasket with the sealent on it? I want to open my primary to check my M-6 tensioner, but hate spending another $30 for another cover gasket. You have used this over again without leaks?   -D


From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 7/14/2005 3:52 PM   Message 13 of 21 in Discussion
Spectre...

My mistake....as far as terms go you are right.....HD calls it the "cylinder head gasket" in my FXR2 part's book....but that's ok it even confused the part's guy at a local HD dealer......I know above I refered to it as a  "cylinder base rocker cover gasket"....I can see where this gasket needs a new description....lol...anyway....HD has the part number of 17042-92A which is a kit for both cylinders and it does INCLUDE a metal bottom rocker cover gasket for anyone interested or a cylinder head gasket between the cylinder head and the bottom rocker cover.....the individual part # for this particular metal gasket is now HD # 16800-84...

Spectre as far as removing the tank I agree with you.....I don't get how it can be done.....it's one of those things that makes you go hmmmm....because you are right how do you line everything up correctly.....but you know when a rocker box gasket job is bid to do both cylinders you are talking about $190.00 which is inclusive of parts...figuring that the HD part # of 17042-92A sells for $43.00 and then you have miscellanious supplies at $15.00 that leaves you about 3 hours for labor.....I know that the first time I did this with my son~in~law we took around 5 hours....I suppose this time it will be a bit faster........

So anyway now I will have gaskets from James and from HD side by side and will compare how they fit and look.....I will say Harley gets perhaps points for style though....the umbrella valves are GREEN lol so....there you go....

Thank you both for your opinions.....about which gaskets you do use and why....this will be the second time recently I will be changing them so that's why I am curious about which ones perhaps are better to use....

Regards,

"Classic"


From: 94fxstc2 Sent: 7/14/2005 4:56 PM   Message 14 of 21 in Discussion
try cometic est gaskets 

[ClassicRider2002]

From: Spectre5555 Sent: 7/15/2005 6:59 AM   Message 15 of 21 in Discussion
Demented...  no, the gasket I'm using is a paper gasket.  It stays attached to the cover with the sealant, and can be reused if you don't damage it.

Classic.... yeah, I like them little green valves.  All we need now are clear rocker box covers so we can see them. 


From: pmclaine Sent: 7/15/2005 7:29 AM   Message 16 of 21 in Discussion
Matco Tools sells a ratcheting hex tool that is designed to remove/install rocker boxes and Pro Motion makes a non ratcheting one that does the same thing but will allow you to use a tourque wrench for final assembly. I got both, used the Matco unit for disassembly and snugging everything up than used the ProMotion model for getting everything torqued right. I also used the Jims centering tools - ie those little pins used to center lifter blocks - to make sure the rocker boxes were set on the heads correctly. Remove the tank - why handicap yourself - follow directions to the letter and if the directions call for a certain tool use it. I also thought that the HD gasket kit for the RB's was well made and fit perfectly.  Just the thoughts of a garage hacker.


From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 7/15/2005 7:54 AM   Message 17 of 21 in Discussion
If I would like to check  compression....what should be the proper compression for this evo engine?
I believe my manual says something about 90......?

Regards,

"Classic"


From: Spectre5555 Sent: 7/15/2005 9:58 AM   Message 18 of 21 in Discussion
 
90 is very low.  You should have at least 120 psi with the engine warm and holding the throttle full open while cranking.  Mine is 180 psi (with the EV27 cam).  Check out this link for more info:

http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/hdhead_compression.htm
      

From: ClassicRider2002 Sent: 7/15/2005 10:35 AM   Message 19 of 21 in Discussion
Spectre

Thank you....!!!

Ok so now what about if I am at an elevation of 5,000 feet.....what should I expect....when you share a numbers of 120 to lets's say 135 are those numbers at sea level and since I am at 5,000 feet...wouldn't I expect to see about a 27% decrease....

The reason I ask is that my son~in~law use to build jet ski motors for racing and when he would check compression at 5,000 (where I live) compression would be at say 185 psi and when he would go to sea level to race he would see numbers in the 220 range......<~~~mentioned only as an example!

So what should I expect with my bike being at 5,000 feet....

Regards,

"Classic"

[ClassicRider2002]

From: Spectre5555 Sent: 7/15/2005 12:36 PM    Message 20 of 21 in Discussion
Yes, there will be a slight difference in pressure at 5000 feet.  You can figure that the standard day atmospheric pressure will be about 87% of what it is at sea level.  That means that a sea level pressure of 135 psi will come out to about 117 psi at 5000 feet.  At 2500 feet MSL, it would be about 128 psi (95%).  If you do most of your riding at that altitude, then you should be alright tuning it to that altitude.  Just remember.... your bike will be running leaner as you get closer to sea level.  You might have to screw around with the mixture a bit to keep it running right.

I guess that most values are given for seal level since about 95% of the US population lives under 500 feet.  Aren't you the luck one?   Usually, a 500 foot variation (long term) will not require that your bike be rejetted.  Even short trips with a difference of 2500-3000 feet will be ok.  I routinely ride through the Adirondack mountains at elevations as high as 3500 feet with no problems, although I do notice that the bike does run a bit rich after a few hours of cruising in the mountains.  I live at 2300 feet, but my bike is tuned at under 100 feet.  It runs fine as is.

Hope this helps.


From: Spectre5555 Sent: 7/15/2005 12:39 PM    Recommend   Message 21 of 21 in Discussion
Oh yeah... forgot something.  If you set up your bike to have too high a static pressure at 5000 feet, your compression may be too high if you travel to lower altitudes, which could result in detonation.  You'd be better off keeping it a bit on the low side to be safe.