MAP SERT CAL Number request,

[Don D]

95" HO 1550 SE Pro Performance heads Softail 2 into 2 pipes 257 cam
TIA Don

[Herko]

Model year?

[Don D]

Sorry, 2003
TIA

[Herko]

105HB.
Exhaust slightly different.

Check your email.

[ToBeFrank]

105HB.

I hated that map. It has the fuel cut on decel set right in the range where when you're cruising in town, you're surging all the time when the fuel kicks back in. I switched to the 105LK map. Of course if you're not going to get it tuned you have to go with the closest for your setup, but if you're going to get it tuned I prefer the LK map as a base.

[FLTRI]

TBF,
If the 105HB base mapping was close why didn't you simply adjust the decel enrichment and/or the 2-5% TB in the VE tables?
Just curious,
Bob

[ToBeFrank]

If the 105HB base mapping was close why didn't you simply adjust the decel enrichment and/or the 2-5% TB in the VE tables?

Because the decel enleanment and VE tables have nothing to do with the decel cut. The decel cut is RPM based and completely cuts off the fuel (and as far as I know, the SERT/TTS software does not give you access to adjust it or turn it off). You can set decel enleanment to zero and VEs maxed out and you'll still get zero fuel when the ECM turns on the decel fuel cut. The surge happens when you get back on the throttle and the ECM turns the fuel back on. I can post graphs showing it doing it's thing if you want to see them.

Note that the 105LK map also has the decel cut feature. It just doesn't seem to turn on as much in the ranges I cruise around town in so it's not as annoying. I definitely still notice when the fuel comes back on with the LK map, just not as often.

[Don D]

We are starting with CAL #4 105HB. I will report back. This is a 03 95 10.2/1 compression headwork and Wood TW5 cams Rinehart TD. Will play with constants before adjusting VEs just to be sure we are in the ballpark.

[FLTRI]

"Because the decel enleanment and VE tables have nothing to do with the decel cut. "
If decel cut shuts off all fuel to the engine during 0 TP, why is there even a decel enleanment table?

"You can set decel enleanment to zero and VEs maxed out and you'll still get zero fuel when the ECM turns on the decel fuel cut"
I actually use this straegy, not maxed out (not necessary) to allieviate decel popping, as I have learned it is effective to eliminate decel popping by adding fuel to the 0% collumn as well as eliminating all the decel enleanment.
Since this works so well I only assume I am adding fuel to decel which eliminates the lean pop.

Maybe I have been incredibly lucky to get these results but I have been using them for years and teach this method to deal with decel popping.

"It just doesn't seem to turn on as much in the ranges I cruise around town in "
What ranges are you refering to?

[ToBeFrank]

"Because the decel enleanment and VE tables have nothing to do with the decel cut. "
If decel cut shuts off all fuel to the engine during 0 TP, why is there even a decel enleanment table?

Because decel cut is not active over the entire RPM range. Also, not all calibrations have a decel cut. 105HB and 105LK definitely do. I can't speak for other calibrations. In addition, I think you're misunderstanding what decel enleanment does. It is not active during all of decel. It is analogous to accel enrichment. It is active only during a very short period when you let off the throttle.

"You can set decel enleanment to zero and VEs maxed out and you'll still get zero fuel when the ECM turns on the decel fuel cut"
I actually use this straegy, not maxed out (not necessary) to allieviate decel popping, as I have learned it is effective to eliminate decel popping by adding fuel to the 0% collumn as well as eliminating all the decel enleanment.
Since this works so well I only assume I am adding fuel to decel which eliminates the lean pop.

Maybe I have been incredibly lucky to get these results but I have been using them for years and teach this method to deal with decel popping.

I'm not sure why you're talking about decel popping as I was talking about the surge you get when the fuel comes back on after the decel cut. Although, one of the benefits of the decel cut is it eliminates any popping (for obvious reasons) when it's on.

Obviously, you don't believe me that these maps have a decel cut so here's the data log showing it. I've annotated it for you so it's dead simple to understand. Note that this is the 105LK map. I don't know what the difference is in the 105HB map that makes it so annoying, but it's definitely there.

You can see when the throttle goes to zero, decel enleanment activates for a very short period as you would expect. Then decel enleanment is zero for the remainder of decel also as you would expect. The VE both front and rear (I'm only showing front VE in the graph to save space) is constant at 80. At approximately 4800 RPM, decel cut activates and both front and rear injector PWs go to zero. At approximately 2500 RPM decel cut deactivates and the injectors come back on. This is where you can feel the bike surge. There is NO way to tune this out with the software currently available.





[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[FLTRI]

"There is NO way to tune this out with the software currently available."

Just for shi$% and giggles try incresing your VE tables in the 0% collumn by say 25% and retry the test to see how and if it makes the fuel cut all but unnoticable.

I NEVER use decel enleanment to cure decel popping except for stock "Y" pipe bikes with low restriction mufflers, only because nothing else works.
Bob

[ToBeFrank]

"There is NO way to tune this out with the software currently available."

Just for shi$% and giggles try incresing your VE tables in the 0% collumn by say 25% and retry the test to see how and if it makes the fuel cut all but unnoticable.

Here you go. Only difference is the decel cut turned on sooner. Note that I adjusted the scale of the VE graph so you can see the VE is max'ed at 127.5 for all of decel. You can also see that the injector PW before and after the decel cut is higher than in the previous graph. This shows that changing the VEs to be maxed out did have an effect on the PW, but had no effect on the decel cut.

This proves the two statements I've made that you are questioning:

"You can set decel enleanment to zero and VEs maxed out and you'll still get zero fuel when the ECM turns on the decel fuel cut"

"There is NO way to tune this out with the software currently available."

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[FLTRI]

TBF,
Like I said before I guess I have just been lucky not to have had decel cut transitional problems you have had with that calibration, but it works great for me AFTER I adjust/increase/enrichen the VE @ 0% TP.
So did you measure the AFR while riding the bike after you increased the VE to 127.5 (way more than necessary, IMO)?
If so did you notice any difference in the way the decel cut-to-normal transition came about after the adjustment?
Bob

[ToBeFrank]

(way more than necessary, IMO)?

Of course. It was a test. They're already set back to where they should be.

If so did you notice any difference in the way the decel cut-to-normal transition came about after the adjustment?

Yes, it got worse.

[FLTRI]

Interesting,
Now I am completely confused, but that is normal for me when things go opposite from expected, and experienced results.

As you increased the VE @ 0% throttle the decel cut transition got worse, indicating the fuel @ 0 became less rather than more. Wonder how that happened?

Maybe we can get other tuners to chime in here with their experiences with this fuel cut-off problem you have with this calibration. As I said previously, I have yet to have that problem, however there is and always will be fuel cut transition to deal with, but I've always found a solution to eliminate harsh transition.

[ToBeFrank]

Maybe we can get other tuners to chime in here with their experiences with this fuel cut-off problem you have with this calibration. As I said previously, I have yet to have that problem, however there is and always will be fuel cut transition to deal with, but I've always found a solution to eliminate harsh transition.

Well, like I said, with the LK map and cruising around town, I don't even notice it. It's only during long decel from very high RPMs that I can feel it. However, that's not the case with the HB map, which is why I posted in the first place. The transition with the LK map is definitely not there if I decel down from 3500 to the cut-in point of 2500, indicating I'm not getting a decel cut in that case. I'm wondering if the LK map has some sort of upper threshold before decel cut is activated that the HB map doesn't have. Thus the HB map is doing decel cut during city driving but the LK map is not.

[Vosselman]

ToBeFrank,

I know what you are talking about. The same is happing on the 176 calibrations. There is a big difference between for example the 176AE and the 176MS.
ON decel the 176MS results in fixed injector timing. No matter which VE numbers you put in the VE tables.

[FLTRI]

ToBeFrank,

I know what you are talking about. The same is happing on the 176 calibrations. There is a big difference between for example the 176AE and the 176MS.
ON decel the 176MS results in fixed injector timing.(What fixed value is that? - no fuel? a little fuel?) No matter which VE numbers you put in the VE tables.

So what do you guys do to mitigate decel backfiring as found to be more pronounced with some exhaust systems, especially when the fuel cutoff is turned off before idle speed?
What do you tell customer about decel backfiring and/or popping, since evidently there is no way to change the decel fuel?
Bob

[Vosselman]

FLTRI: the fixed injector value can differ from calibration to calibration.
Checking for backfire is first thing to check. If you can not get rid of backfiring with the selected cal, take another one and try again.

[FLTRI]

FLTRI: the fixed injector value (I understood you to state it as fuel cut-off - does this mean there is still some fuel being dispensed during cut-off?) can differ from calibration to calibration.
Checking for backfire is first thing to check. If you can not get rid of backfiring with the selected cal, take another one and try again.

Ok, gotcha. I'll check that out.  I guess I've just been lucky picking calibrations.

[Vosselman]

I understood you to state it as fuel cut-off - does this mean there is still some fuel being dispensed during cut-off?)

Some have full fuel cut off, some will keep delivering fuel.

[FLTRI]

I understood you to state it as fuel cut-off - does this mean there is still some fuel being dispensed during cut-off?)

Some have full fuel cut off, some will keep delivering fuel.

Ok, now we are on the same page. I guess what I thought I was hearing was that all calibrations cut-off fuel, and that is where I was misunderstanding. I too have found some calibrations are more or less forgiving with decel backfiring, however, for whatever reason I guess I have not used a lot of those calibrations that have severe fuel cutoff.
Thanks for the clarification,
Bob