Calling all frame identifying experts

[Little Al]

So, did I make a mistake buying this frame for my 1954 motor and trans?

Seller claimed it was a 1951 FL frame that was just glass beaded and needed only minor repairs, a front motor mount thread stripped and sidecar loops cut off. claimed neck is original and frame was never cut. He never clearly stated what (if anything) was on the top motor mount tab. I'm not concerned if the frame is actually a 1951, just bought it on the premise that it was truly an original, uncut frame from the early 1950's. I believe 1948-1955 used the same frame, except that my understanding is 1954 (my year) used 3 different frames of which this was one of those used.

Stamped on the left neck is  XE 35F
Stamped on the right neck (which has a lock in it, no keys no name I could see) is what looks like a small box with GTS in it then  19  to the right of the box
stamped on the front side of the front motor mount is  48E - 621   to the left of that is a small circle with something inside it and a  2  to the right of the circle
I cannot find any stamping on the top motor mount tab at all

so what do you guys think?

Thanks!

Little Al

[Little Al]

I finally figured out how to get ppictures up on photobucket and link to them here, so here's some pictures to help you guys help me:

http://s726.photobucket.com/albums/ww263/LittleAl_2008/

thanks again!

[Little Al]

oh, and yes, it's in my kitchen, no garage, so it's where I do ALL  my building! lol

[CraigArizona85248]

Here is what I see...

1) The top motor mount is consistent with a 1948-1951 wishbone frame
2) All '48-'65 steering heads have the XE 35F forging number, so the neck looks good, but doesn't help us pin down the year.
3) The 1948 frame did not have the horn mounting blocks welded on the motor side of the down tubes.  Your frame has the horn brackets, so we can rule out 1948.
4) The early 1949 frame tubes were not flattened where the horn mounting brackets attach.  Also the horn mounting brackets had square corners.
5) The 1949 - early 1951 frames has 10-24 holes in the horn brackets.
6) Late 1951 - 1953 frames had 12-24 holes in the horn brackets.

That info should help you pin it down.  All this and much more is available in Bruce Palmer's book "How to Restore Your Harley-Davidson".  I'd highly recommend it.

-Craig

[Little Al]

Craig,

I have Palmer's book, as recommended by you when I got my motor about 1 1/2 years ago. Never had the time to just sit down & read it although I wish I had and I expect to now as this winter's goal is to get the Pan going. I looked in Palmer's before I bought the frame but the amount of info there is just overwhelming (in a good way!).

I'll admit, I got a bit lazy in asking here, but then again, it's the beauty of HTT right?

Anyway, it looks like it probably is (via your expert opinion) as the seller claimed, a '51. I will check the horn bracket threads tonight.

thanks!

oh, and for others interested in checking out the frame, here is a new link, I updated my albums on photobucket:

http://s726.photobucket.com/albums/ww263/LittleAl_2008/1954%20PanHead/

[chris haynes]

If you want it to be original 1954 it is the wrong frame. If you are just building a rider and don't give a hoot about originality it is just fine. Not to badly butchered.

[ModelABob]

Little Al,

Nice frame!    For poops & giggles could you give me a ballpark figure on what ya' payed for it?

Merry Christmas & AMF/Ride Safe

[Little Al]

Well Bob, I laughed $1775 worth. lol

[ModelABob]

Little Al,

Thanks for the reply.  Lately at our monthly local swap meet I've been checking out and pricing rigid frames.  Slim pick'ns on anything decent of late.  I did see one that intrigued me:  early swingarm frame front section mated to
a H-D rigid rear section.  I had to do a double take and finally asked the guy selling it, "what is it?"  It looked like they
did a really nice job too.  Don't ask me what I sold my last decent rigid for!   But that was about 25 years ago.
Good luck on your scoot.   It will be fun keeping up with what you do.  In only the past 10 years or so have I
had a decent shop.  Up until then it was upstairs apt. living room, best bud's spare bedrooms, kitchens, etc.

Merry Christmas & AMF/Ride Safe

[Little Al]

No problem Bob.

despite what may be said about my frame, I'm happy enough with it, even the price compared to what I've seen over the past year. The top motor mount was replaced, the tool box mount was cut off and two minor repairs done well. neck & frame were never cut, altered or damaged other then what I stated.

I'm anxious to really get started but some family issues have prevented me from doing so. Soon, very soon. lol

Have a great holiday!

[Speeding Big Twin]

Al, although we also discussed your frame year on the H-G.net forum and ended up with later-1951 as a probability, I've been following a discussion on the Panhead board on the AMCA forum that questions the application of the horn mount block style. I can't post there because I'm not a club member but the thread title is: Frame Dimension - - help?

The 1952 police Panhead below is from the spring 2009 issue of The Antique Motorcycle and there's a good photo in the AMCA thread showing the squared corners of its right-hand mount block. Apparently the sequential portion of the serial number is in the 5200s but there is also mention of a 1952 model with rounded corners and a serial number in the 2500s.

As noted previously, your frame has what appear to be rounded blocks along with the correct bolt hole threads which is part of why we arrived at later-1951. But photos in the AMCA discussion indicate your front engine mount (shown below) is possibly/apparently earlier than the very late-1951 style. So if we include your front engine mount in the ID process then your frame may still be later-1951 but not very late-1951.

And I have a couple of questions as a result of the AMCA thread:
1. Are your horn mount blocks 3/16" thick or 5/16"?
2. Are your blocks welded on all the way around? It looks a bit like it in your second photo?     Eric

[RoadKingTrooper]

LOL, Littleal, tried to see the frame pic but got sidetracked by your UPS photo

Craig's info sounds correct though

Now back to the UPS photo......................................I need a cigarette

[Little Al]

Eric,

The horn blocks are 5/16 inch thick and welded all the way around.

[chris haynes]

Actually the horn blocks are only welded at top and bottom.

[Little Al]

Chris,

probably mine were replaced or repaired somewhere along the way? It is after all, about 60 years old. But I think Eric is saying that they should be welded all around?

[chris haynes]

They should not be welded all the way around. Only at the top and bottom. Look at the photo.

[Pzokes]

The Chopper "Roller" that I just picked up has a late '51-52 frame with the one year only front mount.  I would have liked to find a chopped Knucklehead frame for my build, but the price was right on this pan frame.  I don't think that there is enough demand for me to restore my frame to resell it.

I did read the AMCA post and I was pleasantly surprised to see that it was a discussion and not an arguement.  That's a step in the right direction. 

[Speeding Big Twin]

Thanks, Al. As noted by RKT, Craig's info was correct as per Palmer. It seems there may be two thicknesses for horn mount blocks but I don't see any mention of size in Palmer's year by year breakdown of relevant BT frames or in his corresponding First Year of Features lists.

As you may have read, post #9 in the AMCA discussion suggests early-1949 to later-1949 downtubes were unflattened and the blocks were just under 3/16" thick, square ended and welded all the way around. Post #9 continued: a very late unrestored 1949 has flattened tubes with 5/16" blocks welded on the ends only; 1950 has the same 5/16" square ended blocks welded at either end; and 1951 is the same, with an unrestored late-1951 having 5/16" square ended blocks.

Palmer states at least three times that the blocks were welded on but I don't see any mention of whether that was all the way around or otherwise.

It seems unusual for your blocks to be welded all the way around, given yours are 5/16" thick, and also because you mentioned they contained later style threads. But as you noted, yours may have been replaced or repaired.

Getting back to Palmer's First Year of Features lists, for 1951 he includes: '... redesigned lower front tank bracket (has added two hole flat to mount new safety guard) on BT "wishbone" frame ...' But that info is absent from his page 34 paragraph describing 1951 frames.

On the H-G forum you said you really didn't see your downtubes as flattened and it's hard to tell what year tubes are flattened in any pictures I have. But one of my mates owns a 1949 EL so this week I'm going to have a close look at its frame to see if that helps.     Eric

[chris haynes]

Stamped on the left neck is  XE 35F
Stamped on the right neck (which has a lock in it, no keys no name I could see) is what looks like a small box with GTS in it then  19  to the right of the box
stamped on the front side of the front motor mount is  48E - 621   to the left of that is a small circle with something inside it and a  2  to the right of the circle
I cannot find any stamping on the top motor mount tab at all

so what do you guys think?

I think you are talking about casting numbers and not things stamped on the casting.

I believe 1948-1955 used the same frame, except that my understanding is 1954 (my year) used 3 different frames of which this was one of those used.

You are sadly mistaken. There are several Panhead frames. 1948, 1949/1950-mid 1951, late 1951-1952, 1953, three in 1954, and the late 1954-1957 frame.
Buy a copy of "How To Restore Your Harley-Davidson" by Bruce Palmer III. Then actually read it.

[Speeding Big Twin]

Al, I had a look at the 1949 EL but haven't been able to further narrow down your frame year. Although the EL isn't completely original the horn blocks appear to be. They are welded all the way around, are definitely thinner than the 5/16" variety and there is no indication that either downtube is flattened. The engine serial number is authentic and has a sequential portion of between 5,000 and 6,000 which may account for the unflattened tubes. (The highest 1949 Panhead serial number I have on record is 12,000-13,000.) I'll post some general observations about tubes and blocks in another reply.

A spark control coil tab is just visible at the top of the left tube in my third photo. For 1948 Panheads the tab is near the lower tank mount but for 1949--1951 and some other years the tab is as pictured and yours appears the same.

The two-hole safety guard mount appears the same as yours so I'm still unsure what Palmer means by the added two hole flat in his FYoF list for 1951.     Eric

     

[Speeding Big Twin]

Returning to the downtubes and horn blocks:

1. Palmer's 1949 Only Features list includes: '... "wishbone" frame horn bracket going partially around tube ...' And the 1948--1949 prototype frame on page 35 supports that. However, the accompanying caption says those mounts were non-production so why are they in the OF list for 1949?

2. The same mounts appear on the 1948--1949 prototype Panheads. And the bottom caption on page 583 states: 'Note the 1949 Big Twin frame's front down tubes are not flattened for the horn mounts as are 1950--early-1954 Big Twin frames.' But it doesn't clarify the mount situation so was Palmer then saying the first flattened frames were for 1950?

3. The page 36 photo below is titled as late-1951--1953 and captioned as having flattened tubes but I don't see any flattened tube pictures for frames other than that. And the blocks in the photo are rounded but the 1952 police Panhead in the AMCA thread features squared blocks. Comments, anyone?

Although Palmer has 1949 prototype Panhead photos on pages 582-584 none show the left side so I'm posting a bike from The Big Book of Harley-Davidson by Thomas C. Bolfert and I've been wondering if it's the same bike as in Palmer's. The Bolfert picture has a 1948 EL serial number but we know H-D sometimes used different year parts on prototypes.     Eric

[Little Al]

Eric, man you're diligent. You have way more patience for this then I

that being said, I know you have a real interest in frames & motor numbers so although I can't answer any of your questions I can, if you need/want any, post additional pictures of my frame, although now that the bike is almost complete I may not be able to give you what you want. although I've posted a few pictures of it here on HTT on Photobucket I have quite a few pictures of the bare frame and many pictures showing various parts of the frame as I took pictures of parts of the bike for other reasons. here is a link to the entire collection of pictures (about 300) I've taken of this bike and this frame. if you start at page 14 and work your way up to page one you'll see the progression of the build from the raw frame.


http://s726.photobucket.com/albums/ww263/LittleAl_2008/1954%20PanHead/

[chris haynes]

 Here is a closeup of the PROTOTYPE 1949 frame. It is unlikely that any of these frames ever left the MoCo as they had 1948 engines in them..

Here is my late 1950 mount.

[Speeding Big Twin]

Cheers, Al. I agree with the word diligent. The last magistrate I fronted on a charge of alleged speeding described me in a similar fashion, saying I had been very thorough with my research. 

I've checked your frame photos several times and they along with your info provided everything I could think of but I'll post further details if I find them.

One reason for my persistence is that some points don't get resolved and then full and correct info cannot be posted the next time the subject arises. Recently on another forum certain info was posted as though it was fair dinkum (that's slang for true; genuine) and although I was leaning toward that same info myself, I had never found confirmation so I asked the guy how he reached his conclusion. To his credit he gave me an honest answer, saying it was accepted info and based partly on his many years experience with H-Ds. But the problem of confirmation remained.

And regarding confirmation, I've been in regular contact with Harley-Davidson since first approaching them last November about pre-1970 serial numbers and the like. Even today I sent them two emails: one about a serial number; and one about 1960s frames.     Eric

[chris haynes]

I've been in regular contact with Harley-Davidson since first approaching them last November about pre-1970 serial numbers and the like. Even today I sent them two emails: one about a serial number; and one about 1960s frames.     Eric

Have you found anyone there that actually knows anything that is not in a published book?