Hesatation after blending with TTS

[Atrick]

Did 3 vtune runs according to Doc's instructions on tuning and bike ran good, proceeded to blend values and loaded map and now have noticable hesatation off of idle. Is this normal or did I not due something right and should that be corrected with accel tables or by replacing some of the values that were changed in yellow when blending the VE tables? Did turning the accel back on have something to do with this? Been running a T-Max past 2 years and this is my first time using TTS so any help would be gratiful as I'm trying to learn it now before I put the 103" heads and jugs on and have to learn on a new top end!

[Doc 1]

 Rick
If you blended off the yellow cells you made a mistake....lol.  The yellow cells means the 02 sensors made a change to the VE table however the information collected in that yellow cell wasn't enough to make an accurate change so the value in that cell should not be used.
Try that first.
Doc

[Atrick]

I realize that and I went off the last good number in white as per your instructions and ran that number across and down, the hesatation is only off idle nowhere else right now but I only got a few miles on it, but like I said the last v run was good and only numbers changed were in yellow, so change them back or adjust accel tables? The numbers in yellow were bigger than one in white which means leaner? Is your email working Doc? Sent you two to the new one you sent me?

[Doc 1]

New email is doc101@yahoo.com.....some has told me it didn't work for them so if that happened to you use the hdmd88@yahoo.com

[Hobe]

I realize that and I went off the last good number in white as per your instructions and ran that number across and down, the hesatation is only off idle nowhere else right now but I only got a few miles on it, but like I said the last v run was good and only numbers changed were in yellow, so change them back or adjust accel tables? The numbers in yellow were bigger than one in white which means leaner? Is your email working Doc? Sent you two to the new one you sent me?

The way I understood it a bigger or smaller number does not represent richer or leaner, the accuracy of the number is the key. If the number is higher than actual, the system will provide fuel based on a larger than actual number and be rich. If the number is lower than actual you have the reverse and will be lean.

This is why in a single uncalibrated map you can potentially have both rich and lean conditions as it runs through the zones.

But I guess I could be operating under false assumptions.

[Atrick]

I'm not sure, just want to learn how to solve this problem and have a understanding on whats happening before I do the 103. I guess I could just adjust what I think will work but trying to save time and learn from everyone elses experience. Other than the instructions and this board seems like there isn't a lot of support for this product. Ran T-max for 2 years and could always make a phone call to them if I ran into a big problem.

[FLTRI]

....Other than the instructions and this board seems like there isn't a lot of support for this product. Ran T-max for 2 years and could always make a phone call to them if I ran into a big problem.

Have you called TTS? Folks here have touted them for their great product support.

This doesn't sound like a big problem and can be rectified easily.
I have not experienced what you describe so I cannot comment.

Not much Steve hasn't seen/experienced and really wants to solve all customer issues as he is anal about making his product the best it can be and is always making improvements and getting it to the users without charge of course.
Call Steve.
Let us know what you learn.
Bob

[glens]

I wonder if this might have something to do with disabling the en{rich,lean}ment for a vtune on the street.  I'm thinking it might be better to leave them up and running and just make less hits during a session.  Sure, you'll populate more tables more readily with them off, but maybe the data won't be all that valuable.  "On the street" is not like "on the dyno" where the throttle can be put right to were it needs to be and held long enough to get plenty of good steady-state data.  I think "on the street" the operator isn't going to get so lucky with the throttle/engine speed, and transient conditions where the engine would run better with modified (thus unrecorded) fueling just might be getting included while the engine is running a little less-than-optimally because the fueling changes are turned off (but the data is being recorded as "good").  It made sense when I thought it, anyway...

[Atrick]

 

I wonder if this might have something to do with disabling the en{rich,lean}ment for a vtune on the street. .

I'm thinking that too as I started it up today and the hesitation is there off of idle when it is cold too. Been trying to get this worked out with Doc but either his or my email is screwed up, not sure which but mine works with eveyone but him. I pm'd steve cole for info about a map a while back and he never got back to me, so when someone does that I'm assuming he don't want to be bothered! I might just start over with 2 or 3 more v tune runs this weekend and see what happens then play with it. Thought someone else might have had same problem and it would be a quick fix, but it never works that way I guess.

[WVULTRA]

Atrick:

I've always followed Doc's advise by turning off accel & decel while VTuning on the road!  IMO, it's the preferred method unless your on a Dyno.

Other's mentioned not using the yellow cells for blending, and sometimes the idle regions take some experimenting to get them right.  And when the bikes cold, you've still got warm-up enrichment in the mix.

I'd recommend a full Data Recording from cold/first start; then take a look at Timing/knock retard and consider modifying the Spark Tables via the Tuning Guide.

Also, might be the particular map you started with.  What's your year bike/build, and map your using?

[glens]

Okay, so for the transient states, you're happy getting hits that might not contain information you'd want weighted into the calculations?

Look at it this way.  The real reason for disabling the transient fueling modifications is because when they're enabled and activated, they shut down data gathering for a few seconds.  Each time.  These add up.  If you're on a dyno you can get past them much quicker manually, so you do, to save some running time on the dyno.  Because you can.  And the little bit of spurious data you're including gets vastly outweighed by good hard numbers.

But if you're on the road, you'll be encountering these conditions much more often.  They'll weigh in to a greater extent.  If you had the modifications enabled, the bike would run better during their duration than without them.  Don't you think the time it takes to get settled again after a transient condition is really about the same whether the fueling was modified or not?  Why include data that's getting gathered during these timeframes?

Okay, look at it this way, too.  If you succeed in getting your VE tables well-populated you might move on to your spark timing, where you might make some changes which make the engine happier.  You can then go back and find some VE values wanting to be different as a result.  So the VE values are in some additional respect dependent on how "happy" the engine is.  If the engine becomes a little unhappy at any given moment because a change is being made in its running conditions, you'd do well to wait until it settled again before checking its VE tables for accuracy.  Or, you could just leave the en{rich,lean}ment enabled, keeping the engine happier during such times they get used, and automatically omitting the data from your collection. 

So you're encountering less-than-optimal running moments either way, but one way you're gathering/including data during them, the other you're not.  And trust me, you'll encounter a far greater number of them over-the-road than you will during the same amount of time on a dyno (unless you're operating as haphazardly as you would on the street).

I guess that's about as clearly as I can make my "argument" for why I leave them enabled on the road.  Maybe it's less detrimental than I'm making it sound possible to disable them for vtuning.  You know, I guess I don't really know.  But it seems plausible to my little pea-brain, so I plan to stick with it at this time.  Anybody got a differing viewpoint thought-out enough to share for my consideration?

[Steve Cole]

I wonder if this might have something to do with disabling the en{rich,lean}ment for a vtune on the street. .

I'm thinking that too as I started it up today and the hesitation is there off of idle when it is cold too. Been trying to get this worked out with Doc but either his or my email is screwed up, not sure which but mine works with eveyone but him. I pm'd steve cole for info about a map a while back and he never got back to me, so when someone does that I'm assuming he don't want to be bothered! I might just start over with 2 or 3 more v tune runs this weekend and see what happens then play with it. Thought someone else might have had same problem and it would be a quick fix, but it never works that way I guess.

Sorry, but I've gotten no PM from you.

[hrdtail78]

Probably too busy answering the business phone.

My input would be this.  The ECM knows when your throttle is at 5% or 5.5%.  It is a value change and might richen it up.  You are still hitting the cells parameter.  The Accell Enrichment might not be the problem.  How far and fast does the Decel Enleanment need to come into play?  Remember, we are only calibrating the VE at this point.

[Atrick]

Have you called TTS? Folks here have touted them for their great product support.

This doesn't sound like a big problem and can be rectified easily.
I have not experienced what you describe so I cannot comment.

Not much Steve hasn't seen/experienced and really wants to solve all customer issues as he is anal about making his product the best it can be and is always making improvements and getting it to the users without charge of course.
Call Steve
[/quote]
Called TTS today ( took a while to find phone #, its on their web site ) and got to talk to Steve today and he was very helpful and I got answers to all my questions and he even offered to look over the maps if I emailed them to him after I did some runs. In a nut shell he said I didn't have good enough v runs with good results and to go back and reload the last v run and see what happens and if the problem was there and it was so I reloaded the blended map and noted the good and bad spots and then did that with all 3 v run maps and the original map and compared all the ve values and now know where I screwed up. Simple when you know what to look for and where to look for it at. Again I want to thank Steve for the help and information!!   Rick

[glens]

Why don't you offer a synopsis of what you did wrong and right, along with the ramifications, to further the common knowledge base?

[Atrick]

On the first v run in the 1000, 1250 rpm range and 2% throttle area I didn't have good VE data and went ahead and used that anyway cause the rest of the data in the other areas was good. Apparently if you use bad data in the first run it will get compounded into really bad data after 2 more runs, hence the hesitation off of idle. Went back and started over and everything is good. Bottom line " Make sure data is good from the start as the problem will get worse ".

[FLTRI]

Can you explain what you mean about bad data and how you gathered it?
And did you blend idle/low speed data because you thought you couldn't get good data in the low speed and idle?
I thought blending was to be used at the highest MAP values because the software will not gather that info??
Thanks,
Bob

[Atrick]

Can you explain what you mean about bad data and how you gathered it?

Too many yellow boxes at 1125, 1250 rpm areas in the 2%, 5% and 7% areas

And did you blend idle/low speed data because you thought you couldn't get good data in the low speed and idle?

Yes but steve told me I could get some of those areas by just barely opening throttle while its idleing ( make sure bike doesn't get too hot sitting there, might need fan on it ) and then going for a ride and dragging brakes in 3 or 4 gear at 1000, 1125 and etc rpm to fill in rest which I was hesitate to do but it works, but it works better if you got someone watching ( the better half on back holding laptop ) while you do this to tell you you got that area plus the neighbors think your nuts running bike down road dragging brakes doing 30 mph with throttle open full and the passenger holding the laptop, I know this will be much easier on a dyno which is what I,m getting done when I put the 103" heads and cylinders on this weekend. This v-tune right now was to try to learn how the tts works and me understanding it so if I have problems down road after the dyno I could fix them. Hope my learning experience is helping someone out there and hope your entertaining the neighbors also!!