02 problem

[streeter1]

Hello...need some input regarding the TTS.
The Bike:
07 SG 96cu
V&H duals/Ovals
255 cams
Stage1 air
CAL ID MS 176 002 B1

I have been consulting with Doc, who been a tremendous help. The issue at hand is the front 02 sensor. I have replaced it twice and can still not get it too switch. it reads 1020-1040 mv. at all times. I've checked all the wiring and ECM contacts. The plug on the front cylinder is black in no time at all and runs pig rich on the front cylinder. I'm thinking I might have an injector problem that is over fueling that cylinder and the ECM cannot compensate quick enough......hence the 02 is stuck at rich. Any ideas??

Thanks

[Eleft36]

There could be an air leak, intake or exhaust, hence the O2 is giving the ecm a wrong message.

Al

PS Did you check the compression?

[WVULTRA]

streeter1:

Since you've been working with Doc, has he given you any ideas as to what might be wrong?

You say the front cylinder is reading 1020-1040Mv at all times.  Have you verified this with a Data Recording of O2 data?  If so you might want to post the recording. 

I'm sure you changed the CI in Constants to 96" for starters.  What happens when you take the map out of Closed Loop.  Does this clean up the front cylinder?

Did you or someone else do the install of optional parts?  Pushrods adjustable or did you reuse the stock ones?  Any/all specific details might help the experts here...........

[streeter1]

streeter1:

streeter1:

Since you've been working with Doc, has he given you any ideas as to what might be wrong?

You say the front cylinder is reading 1020-1040Mv at all times.  Have you verified this with a Data Recording of O2 data?  If so you might want to post the recording. 

I'm sure you changed the CI in Constants to 96" for starters.  What happens when you take the map out of Closed Loop.  Does this clean up the front cylinder?

Did you or someone else do the install of optional parts?  Pushrods adjustable or did you reuse the stock ones?  Any/all specific details might help the experts here...........

.

Doc and I have been back and forth.....great guy to take the time to help out!!! We are both thinking injector problem at this point...over fueling the front cylinder.

Data logged the 02's and the front just flat lines at around 1020mv. While the rear is switching fine.

Changed the cu to 96.7 haven't taken it out closed loop yet.....

DYI for all the  parts...stock pushrods, pretty straight forward install.

I'm going to check the injector too see if it is leaking because its definitely way too rich on that cylinder.

Thank you for your insight!!!

[WVULTRA]

streeter1:

If you don't have access to a replacement injector right away, might be worth your time to switch them and see if it reacts the same on rear then.  Would definitely confirm your theory.

Good luck!

[streeter1]

The injector doesn't seem to be leaking while cycle the pump. Took my digital thermo gun and the front head pipe is at 170d and the rear is at 260d after a few minutes of running. definitely is rich on the front cooling down the pipe and the 02. Took another data log and reved the motor and the 02 switched but in that band of higher RPM(3600) only. I'm thinking the higher RPM caused more heat to heat up the sensor so that it work properly.....still searching.

[WVULTRA]

Just curious, but are there any DTCs being set in the ECM Diagnostic window of DataMaster?

Also, exporting the data from one of your idle/test Data Recordings might show something not readily evident while viewing the data in the Main Data Display..............

Not trying to share bad news, but my '07 had a bad ECM shortly after it was new; but it was throwing false codes concerning the O2 sensors.

I'm sure others will chime in here that have much more experience at diagnosing this type of problem.

Just be patient.

[FLTRI]

As mentioned swap the injectors and see if that cures the front rich and causes the rear to go rich.
Also check the VEs frt/rear and see if there is a huge difference.
When did this condition start? What has been changed from when it ran properly?
Need mo info,
Bob

[streeter1]

WVULTRA..... throws a P0132 code front 02 high.

Bob...The bike previously had a PC on and ran well. Changed the cams(255) and true duals and here I am.
VE don't have a huge difference

Thanks all for your input!!!

[FLTRI]

Sounds like you have a dead O2 sensor. When they go out the engine runs on the VE mapping, which shows you just how far out of basic tune you are. Should run better with a new sensor cause it'll work full time to try to keep AFRs close, but there's more than likely better smoothness, power and mileage left in the build.
Bob

[streeter1]

I've put a new one in already with the same results.....

[Eleft36]

I've put a new one in already with the same results.....

Basics....did you check the compression?

Al

[streeter1]

Compression is good....200 205

[blkfalc4]

If different sensor, then check wiring, from ecm pinout, to o2 pinout. Sometimes the pins move back in plastic holder. Or corrosion in plugs.
o2 low is open,, high is closed.

[streeter1]

blkfalc4; checked all the wiring, ECM pins, connector pins, etc. Today as per Doc's suggestion I am going to manually tweak the front VE table by removing 5% at a time to see if it improves. There is definitely too much fuel in that cylinder.

[WVULTRA]

WVULTRA..... throws a P0132 code front 02 high.

Bob...The bike previously had a PC on and ran well. Changed the cams(255) and true duals and here I am.
VE don't have a huge difference

Thanks all for your input!!!

streeter1:

I still say the next logical step is to swap the injectors and see if the condition moves to the rear cylinder.

If it still throws the code for front O2 high, then as I found early on with my '07 a new ECM may be on order.  And, IIRC, the ECM may carry the 5 year warranty for emissions control.  Of course your engine is not stock, but a compassionate Dealer may work with you on this.

Good luck!

[streeter1]

About ready to throw in the towel on this one!!

[Evo160K]

Can you unplug the sensors at their connectors and use jumper wires to reverse them?  See if the rear starts doing it.

[streeter1]

you would need the OEM pins to make those connections. I'm starting to wonder if the cams are in right at this point or I have an ECM issue.

[WVULTRA]

streeter1:

Have you swapped the injectors yet?

Also, you could have a weak connection at the ECM.  Unplug the main ECM harness and take a good look at the pins checking for any corrosion or pins not seated fully.

[streeter1]

No I haven't swapped them around yet but I just might to humor myself LOL. The damn thing was great until I got my hands into it. I've checked the ECM pins and connector with a 12 x magnifier and everything appears to be good. I'm thinking ECM.....TTS soft wear or interface or the cams are in wrong(I'm going to humor myself again on this one)LOL.

[Evo160K]

streeter1,
Aren't there just two pins at your 02 sensor connectors?  My h-d connectors have two pins, I've swapped the sensors, front to rear, without removing them by using four individual jumper wires with alligator clips on the ends.  That was for testing in the garage, of course, not on the road.

[streeter1]

Yes...just two pins. I guess I would have to remove the pins from the plastic connector.

The bike has absolutely no power what's so ever.... can this baseline map be off that much??

[lonewolf]

I'm with wvultra. Swap your injectors around. Only takes a couple of minutes if you remove your top stabilizer link.

[Evo160K]

streeter1,

quote author=streeter1 link=topic=25004.msg256223#msg256223 date=1271644440]
Yes...just two pins. I guess I would have to remove the pins from the plastic connector.  [/quote]

I don't think it's necessary to remove the pins.  There should be a 2-pin connector at the end of the 02 sensor wire.  If so, seperate the male and the female parts of the connector and put alligator clips on the 2 pins in the female (socket) part and hook the alligator clips on the other ends to sewing straight pins and push them into the holes in the male part of the connector

[FLTRI]

No power whatsoever = cam timing is off. (compression psi front-to-rear varies more than normal.
Power in places but not in all areas = calibration

.... can this baseline map be off that much??

Yes but probably would run decent when cold or in some rpms and not others.
Check the last thing you did....cams?
Bob

[streeter1]

Can you be 360d out on the crank sprocket and be TDC exh/int versus TDC comp on the front cylinder? I know the marks on the cams are good

[FLTRI]

I know the marks on the cams are good

Because compression check showed psi is same front to rear?
If the compression is even front to rear then cam timing is prolly not the issue.
IMO, that leaves a really poor tune for the build and the only way to know for sure is to get it to someone who can measure performance and see AFR at that time.
Bob

[glens]

Be very careful stuffing stuff into the connector sockets.  It's way too easy to deform them resulting in poor connectivity later.

And, IIRC, the ECM may carry the 5 year warranty for emissions control.

The Federal Emissions Warranty might be 5 years, I was thinking it was 3 but haven't looked.  Anyway, it doesn't matter how much time has passed if there's over 30,000 km on the bike (~18,000 miles) because that's the other criteria for the warranty:  time or distance, whichever comes first terminates the warranty period.

[FLTRI]

California motorcycle emission defect warranty:
CCR §2036
Defects Warranty
Class III (280 cc or greater)
5 years / 30,000 km (18,641 miles)

[streeter1]

Well I finally got the motor up and running the way it should. Cam timing was off. Had the cam Teeth aligned at 2 & 3 Oclock versus 3 & 9, funny thing the two dots were in perfect alignment. Had I checked them after aligning the outer gears and chain....I would of caught it. Some had commented that the compression would be off....it was dead even on both 200psi. Anyhow, it now runs and sounds the way it should, the front 02 works perfect.

My first VTune run was good. I hit all the cells that I drove in. I generated a new map and downloaded it to the ECM. New problem....I cannot collect any data on subsequent runs. It onlys hits up to 5% and 1250 rpm. every other cell is blank. I've used the same riding technique that I used for the first record. The laptop is the same, shimmed the USB connection. I've watched the histogram at idle and reved the motor to see if the X would follow the and it does. Any ideas?

Thanks

[Steve Cole]

Look at the total number of frames being collected. If you look back at your old recording see if they are about the same. If the total is way off then the laptop power saving mode may have changed on you.

[Eleft36]

 Back when there were no such thing as "codes". The diagnostics were a mechanical process of elimination.

Compression, timing, fuel, air and spark.

Al