TTS Displacement Change

[hog yild]

My VE cell are getting close to 127. Can I change my displacement and will it automatically lower my VE cells?
Or do I need to start over on my Vtune runs?

[WVULTRA]

hog:

When I see a trend of maxxed out cells develop, usually increase CI by 5-10% and lower the VEs by 5-10%. 

Then continue vtuning from there.  If the cells max out early on, then 10% will ususally put you right in the ball park.

IMO, increasing CI and lowering VEs at same time allows tuning process to compensate quicker.

[glens]

You could just increase the engine size constant and let vtune take care of the rest.  But if you're already pretty far into a vtune, I'd say to increase the engine size and decrease the VEs the same amount in the other direction.  I don't have the documentation handy so I don't know if a 10% reduction of a VE value of "125" would result in "115" or in "112.5".  That is to say, would a 10% reduction in VE value be just dropping the tens digit by one number, or would it be 90% of the higher value...

[hog yild]

That works thanks Wvultra!
Glens, I assume it changes the value by 10% , but the question is, how does does lt round up?

[WVULTRA]

You could just increase the engine size constant and let vtune take care of the rest.  But if you're already pretty far into a vtune, I'd say to increase the engine size and decrease the VEs the same amount in the other direction.  I don't have the documentation handy so I don't know if a 10% reduction of a VE value of "125" would result in "115" or in "112.5".  That is to say, would a 10% reduction in VE value be just dropping the tens digit by one number, or would it be 90% of the higher value...

glens:

Decrementing a cell value of 125 by 10% yields 112.5.  A cell value of 100 yields 90.

[WVULTRA]

That works thanks Wvultra!
Glens, I assume it changes the value by 10% , but the question is, how does does lt round up?

hog:

That's a good question...........ie, 117.5 yields 106.  112.5 yields 101.  77.5 yields 70. 

Of course, opening a Mastertune VE file and selecting 10% will do it all for us!

Always glad to help!

[rigidthumper]

IME, 12 cubic inches added to the displacement results in 1 AFR richer, pretty much across the board.

[hog yild]

IME, 12 cubic inches added to the displacement results in 1 AFR richer, pretty much across the board.

That is good information to know.

Here is my info:
07 FLHTCU
96ci.
TTS Mastertune (starting map PS176-002 with 96.7 ci displacement) (Street Vtuned)
K&N RK-3910 Air Cleaner kit
SE 255 cams
09 FLHTCU Header (no cat's)
08 CVO 4" slip-on mufflers (cat's & fiberglass removed)
Jagg 10 row oil cooler
SE compensator primary sprocket kit
SE heavy clutch spring
Final drive ratio of 3.06, Andrews 30 pulley, 68 rear drive pulley (final drive ratio of 3.06 vs 2.79 stock)

I have blended (with help) my VE tables to the right and down. I will say the bike runs well, no hesitation, no decel popping, crusing I get 42mpg, CLB set at 778. I do feel it come on stronger around 2000rpm with a minor dip at 2500 to 2750 rpm, then on strong till about 4500rpm.
I took it to the local dealer for a baseline dyno run to see where I am at. This is a 4th gear pull, SAE. I'm at 76.74hp & 89.22tq, with a dip around 2500 to 2750 rpm, but I'm way lean at WOT starting at around 14.6 to 15.0 at 2000 and progressively dropping to about 14.2 at 5500rpm. The guy running the dyno said I need to add about 10% in the VE tables front & rear between 80 & 100% throttle, and 2000rpm on up, with blending back into the rest of my VE table. He thinks I should be able to get somewhere around 93 to 94tq. If I up the VE cells I'm very close to Maxing out, hence the question on changing displacement.
Does this all sound kosher? Should I have to make adjustments this large off my VE cells that were bended out above 80Kpa to get into the AFR of 13.0 to 13.2 at WOT?

[WVULTRA]

hog:

IMO, if the dyno operator is tuning WOT he should have wide band sensors in your bungs  and then tune the upper regions to desired AFR.  If the bike needs 13-13.2 in 80-100 columns, he should tune the VEs in those regions to produce that.

Then you could see the transition down into the VTuned regions.

[hog yild]

hog:

IMO, if the dyno operator is tuning WOT he should have wide band sensors in your bungs  and then tune the upper regions to desired AFR.  If the bike needs 13-13.2 in 80-100 columns, he should tune the VEs in those regions to produce that.

Then you could see the transition down into the VTuned regions.

Wvultra,

I've posted the dyno sheet, from the baseline dyno runs. The dyno operator has a wide band sensor that he sticks up the exhaust. I just asked for a baseline run to see where I am at. His recommendations are written in at the bottom. It's the local HD dealership, they never heard of TTS, but I've explained for them it's basically an updated SERT with added features. I showed them the map I'm running on my laptop. He feels comfortable he can tune WOT the same as the SERT. He suggest I make the changes he recommends, do another baseline run and if it doesn't come into the 13.0-13.2 AFR range, he could then get it there using my computer and adjust the VE tables. Two hours of dyno time at $85 per hour. He suggests using my computer so he doesn't have to charge me for installing and upgrading TTS on their computer. Will changing the ve's to get 13.0 to 13.2 get me to the 94 to 95tq area with my setup?

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[bbrowncods]

Why do you need the dyno tune?  It looks like your AFR is indicating what you would have in your AFR table, right?  That means you are Vtuned.  Then up the AFR table values to +0.3 and the +10% he recommends.  You can ride it like that or take it back for another base run.
Bottom line is your AFR is in line with your AFR table, so your good.  I would leave it like that to take advantage of the closed loop and the fuel savings.  Forget the 1-2 HP gain.

[hog yild]

Why do you need the dyno tune?  It looks like your AFR is indicating what you would have in your AFR table, right?  That means you are Vtuned.  Then up the AFR table values to +0.3 and the +10% he recommends.  You can ride it like that or take it back for another base run.
Bottom line is your AFR is in line with your AFR table, so your good.  I would leave it like that to take advantage of the closed loop and the fuel savings.  Forget the 1-2 HP gain.

Not really, I have 14.6 set with a clb of 778, giving me around 14.3 in the cruise range of the AFR table. I'm asking for more fuel as the load on the motor goes up, 80 to 100 kpa. I was asking for 13.2 to 13.0 in the 90 to 100 Kpa (high load) cells. I've attached a pic of my AFR table for you to see, however it has been changed to 12.9 to 12.7 per the dyno operator's recommendations.

One note here, after upping the displacement and lowering the VE table accordingly, I developed a hot start backfire through the thottle body. I did Vtune today, most all the cells were white, but in the idle area at low load there were enough pink cells in the Vtune to have me run another Vtune and now it appears the hot start condition is gone. Just an FYI.

Is it typical to have to raise the VE cell values higher then the Vtune 80kpa blended cells to get the correct AFR at WOT?

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[WVULTRA]

hog:

IMO, your 80-100 regions appear very rich!  And remember you've got PE Mode kicking in while your getting there plus the CLB offset is also affecting those regions.

Typically, good VTune recordings (ones with "purple/blue" inserted in the cell) can be blended into the 80-100 areas and be pretty close..............

I really feel a Dyno operator thoroughly experienced with the TTS System would be in your best interest before spending any more money with the Dealer.  Also, I feel a qualified operator would install calibrated wide-band O2 sensors in your bungs to tune the WOT areas.

[WVULTRA]

hog:

An example of a fully tuned bike with a build almost identical to yours:



Just pointing out what the upper MAP regions look like...........

[hog yild]

I fully understand, can anyone give me a good tuner who knows TTS Mastertune in the Richmond VA. area?