TTS. WTF

[rbabos]

I hope somebody can answer this. In closed loop for idle the warmup enrichment can be adjusted and even O'd out so the bike will barely keep running when cold. Now my prediciment. My engine likes around 14-14.2 for idle. Even with the warmup enrichment O'd out, it behaves as though warmup enrichment is still set to the default and the engine runs rough and rich. Where is all this fuel coming from in open loop and why can't I remove it?
Ron
Ron

[Steve Cole]

Warmup Enrichment does not work in closed loop so I am not sure what your doing or think your doing. First get your VE's done with Vtune with the AFR table all set for 14.6. That should get your idle area corrected. Now return the the AFR table back to how we had it set and install into the bike. Depending on what you have set the CLB value to will determine the mixture your running in Closed Loop. What have you set the CLB too?

[rbabos]

Warmup Enrichment does not work in closed loop so I am not sure what your doing or think your doing. First get your VE's done with Vtune with the AFR table all set for 14.6. That should get your idle area corrected. Now return the the AFR table back to how we had it set and install into the bike. Depending on what you have set the CLB value to will determine the mixture your running in Closed Loop. What have you set the CLB too?

Steeve: Cbls set at 756 . Bike is vtuned again in full closed loop for the second time.  On the first startup when set for vtune the enrichment was of course set to 0 and all possible cells set to 14.6, three startup attempt were needed to keep it running until some heat built up. To me, that's normal.  It is now really rich when starting cold with the idle afr set to open loop 14.0, even with the warmup enrichment set to 0. Where's all the extra fuel coming from when set to open loop, set at 756 cbls and starting cold. It should be lean, yes,no?
Ron

[HogMike]

What kind of build do you have?
Is there a map (included with the updater) that is close to what you have?
Load that map and see how everything runs, that will eliminate any weird settings you may have now.
If it still misbehaves, there is some other issue, maybe mechanical?
Easy check, and probably worth a try.

[WVULTRA]

Ron:

Specs on your build?  What year bike?  What TTS map are you starting with?

[Steve Cole]

Warmup Enrichment does not work in closed loop so I am not sure what your doing or think your doing. First get your VE's done with Vtune with the AFR table all set for 14.6. That should get your idle area corrected. Now return the the AFR table back to how we had it set and install into the bike. Depending on what you have set the CLB value to will determine the mixture your running in Closed Loop. What have you set the CLB too?

Steeve: Cbls set at 756 . Bike is vtuned again in full closed loop for the second time.  On the first startup when set for vtune the enrichment was of course set to 0 and all possible cells set to 14.6, three startup attempt were needed to keep it running until some heat built up. To me, that's normal.  It is now really rich when starting cold with the idle afr set to open loop 14.0, even with the warmup enrichment set to 0. Where's all the extra fuel coming from when set to open loop, set at 756 cbls and starting cold. It should be lean, yes,no?
Ron

[rbabos]

Ron:

Specs on your build?  What year bike?  What TTS map are you starting with?

Build is HQ 113 with stock 46mm tb. 575 cams, 10.5-1 comp, 2-1 supertrap, 4.89 SE injectors.  The map I'm using is NI176-200, vtuned at 130 ci. NO176 was also tried once with little difference regarding rich cold starting. The NI just by the seat of the pants feels better over all. When hot, my 14.0 idle afr doesn't seem rich at all and actually runs better than when in closed loop running at 756, as in when doing vtune sessions.
Ron

[WVULTRA]

Ron:

IMO, NI176-002 should be a descent map to start with. But at 130CI, your 26% higher than the stock map configuration.........may be a bit fat to start with.

Might be worth doing an Idle only Data Recording with O2 feedback from a cold idle until your out of WU Enrichment and see what's being called out in the recording's results.

Might need a bit more timing in the Closed Throttle Spark Table.

You mentioned "three startup attemp were needed to keep it running".  Doesn't sound normal IMO.

Something doesn't sound right, and there may have been a problem with the initial VTune recording.  May need to start over from scratch with a 113" CI VTune Recording and go from there.

Hope this helps!

[FLTRI]

This should be easy. You have a stock intake (46mm) but you added a lot more fuel without adding a lot more air.
Then, to get enough head room for your VE tables, you have increased the cid way over the actual size, which in itself, ok, but since you have big injectors it just adds to the starting fueling which includes quite a bit of calculation in the background that accounts for engine size and injector size.

Suggestion:
Reinstall the stock injectors and all your troubles with excessively rich warmup should go away. Retune it and all will be good.

Also, when I need a lot more fuel to stay below the 127.5 VE limit I work with the injector size because small changes make a lot of difference whereas I find cid needs a big change to get the same results.

There are arguments as to which is best and I do not profess my way or it's wrong, just my experience.

Hope this helps and let us know what you find,
Bob

[rbabos]

Ron:

IMO, NI176-002 should be a descent map to start with. But at 130CI, your 26% higher than the stock map configuration.........may be a bit fat to start with.

Might be worth doing an Idle only Data Recording with O2 feedback from a cold idle until your out of WU Enrichment and see what's being called out in the recording's results.

Might need a bit more timing in the Closed Throttle Spark Table.

You mentioned "three startup attemp were needed to keep it running".  Doesn't sound normal IMO.

Something doesn't sound right, and there may have been a problem with the initial VTune recording.  May need to start over from scratch with a 113" CI VTune Recording and go from there.

Hope this helps!

WVULTRA/FLTRI
Lets look at what you say here. Then engine really don't know what size tb it is at idle since iac is where it runs. Three tuning experts have told me to vtune this map at 130 or better, and the fact that I'm near max on the rear ve's, I tend to agree they are correct on the ci choice. Injector size is what's called for at 113ci and the stockers are too small for the upper rpms. Again, this is running on the iac circuit, not actual tb size so there should be no problem with either at this point, from what I can see. As for vtuning it, I would only end up back where I was prior to the last 100+ fix attempts for cold start, so enough of vtunes. I say it quitting as normal because with a cold engine and all fuel values zero'd out, there is no enrichment, so it's like starting any engine without a choke. It basically starts on cranking fuel, and if the mixture is too lean when cold it quits. Get a few degrees in the cyls and the mixture is adiquate to keep it running. I like to point out the when it stayed running, it would still spit back into the breather when throttle was advance too fast. Once at operating temp it worked normal for the vtune process. So, we're back the my original problem.
Clearly zero'd warmup enrichment leans the engine when the idle is set at 14.6 closed loop with 756 cbls.
When the idle is set to 14.0 afr after all the tuning, the warmup enrichment on the colder start settings has no effect. All zeros and it runs like on full choke with fuel smell during warmup. So, what is adding the fuel, and how do I change it in the map?
Ron

[BVHOG]

My best guess is your IAC steps are affecting the overall mixture more than anything else, you may even go as far as adjusting the throttle blade, (do not go beyond 50-52 on tps voltage) to induce more air if the tps is not cutting it.

[FLTRI]

Sometime I feel as though I am talking to a brick wall. 
IMO pre-conceive notions:

the stockers (injectors) are too small for the upper rpms.

will hold this build back from getting the starting correct.
We use stock injectors with stock intakes due to this exact problem you are having, BWTFDIK?
Let us know what you do to fix it,
Bob

[hrdtail78]

What year bike?  What is the pw of injectors at idle?  Oh, and while your looking what is the pw at 100% throttle?

[lonewolf]

Sometime I feel as though I am talking to a brick wall. 
IMO pre-conceive notions:

the stockers (injectors) are too small for the upper rpms.

will hold this build back from getting the starting correct.
We use stock injectors with stock intakes due to this exact problem you are having, BWTFDIK?
Let us know what you do to fix it,
Bob

Even on my 107 the stock 3.91's were showing 20+ms @ 6000 rpm and I replaced with the 4.89's. I had to drop my cu. inches from 127 to 115 to keep the ve tables close but she starts and idles just fine. Aren't the stock 3.91's good for just a little over 100 hp?

[Steve Cole]

Ron:

Specs on your build?  What year bike?  What TTS map are you starting with?

Build is HQ 113 with stock 46mm tb. 575 cams, 10.5-1 comp, 2-1 supertrap, 4.89 SE injectors.  The map I'm using is NI176-200, vtuned at 130 ci. NO176 was also tried once with little difference regarding rich cold starting. The NI just by the seat of the pants feels better over all. When hot, my 14.0 idle afr doesn't seem rich at all and actually runs better than when in closed loop running at 756, as in when doing vtune sessions.
Ron

Looks like the website lost my part of the last post. You Vtune with CLB's at 756 so you made a shift in the calculated fuel of ~.2 AFR. So when you call for 14.6 and closed loop you are really running ~14.4. So now you switch to an open loop command of 14.0 so what you are really calling for is 13.8. To me that is a little too rich to begin with. Now what is your closed throttle timing set too?

[rbabos]

My best guess is your IAC steps are affecting the overall mixture more than anything else, you may even go as far as adjusting the throttle blade, (do not go beyond 50-52 on tps voltage) to induce more air if the tps is not cutting it.

This is entirely possible since my logged iac points are almost double of what's in the map. Today I tried again to enter the logged figures into the map iac points. The starting flare is still there and discovered the map will not allow me to drop the crank to run any lower then it's set # of 10, so I could not remove the rpm flare at startup. I will think about what you say in regards to the throttle blade opening. This will require the tps to be set back to zero, wouldn't it?
Ron

[WVULTRA]

ron:

Still not sure what year your bike is........but mine's an '07 and found out the throttle blade was not set where it should be due to a loose throttle stop screw.

Check TT410 and TT302 here:

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,11130.0.html

[rbabos]

Sometime I feel as though I am talking to a brick wall. 
IMO pre-conceive notions:

the stockers (injectors) are too small for the upper rpms.

will hold this build back from getting the starting correct.
We use stock injectors with stock intakes due to this exact problem you are having, BWTFDIK?
Let us know what you do to fix it,
Bob

While I agree it will fix the starting most likely I still feel there is another reason, like the iac, in my case being dramtically higher than the map. Maybe the 46mm as opposed the the 50mm map settings for iac need to be juggled in the form of getting more air past the throttle plate so the iac points will drop. That's if in fact the iac is the fuel contolling agent in my idle area. Still have not go a definative answer on that, like it's some kind of KGB secret or something.
Ron

[FLTRI]

That's if in fact the iac is the fuel contolling agent in my idle area....Ron

The IAC stands for Idle AIR Control, so it controls air not fuel.
No KGB secrets and no need to make a federal case for such a simple problem (big injectors feeding small intake)   
Bob
PS - Don't assume if the Warm Up Enrichment is set to 1.0 (minimum) there is no enrichment happening...cause there is, and a big injector in a small intake will cause overly rich warmup.

[rbabos]

ron:

Still not sure what year your bike is........but mine's an '07 and found out the throttle blade was not set where it should be due to a loose throttle stop screw.

Check TT410 and TT302 here:

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,11130.0.html

It's an 07. Thanks for the link. I can at least check out that area.
Ron

[rbabos]

What year bike?  What is the pw of injectors at idle?  Oh, and while your looking what is the pw at 100% throttle?

I can't help you with the 100% but here's the figures from cold start. The tps voltage is .53 and stayed that way from cold to hot.
cold start, engine at 16c = 5.81 front and 5.07 rear
30c= 4.45 front and 4.21 rear
46c= 3.99 front and 3.61 rear
60c= 3.60 front and 3.49 rear
80= 3.34 front and 3.25 rear
100c = 3.13 front and 3.12 rear
125c= 3.12 front and 3.04 rear
Ron

[wurk_truk]

Ron

IAC works by allowing more or less AIR into the intake, it is simply an air valve..  The ECM controls the fuel.  BOTH have to work in conjunction.  I'm thinking the ECM isn't liking the new injectors and it is sending out too much fuel, exactly like Bob is saying.  DBW bikes have NO IAC, because the plate motor can open the plate to allow more air when cold.  IAC does this on a cable bike...

Just for shits and giggles... you ARE frustrated enough by now, lets just pop the stock injectors back in and simply SEE if the idle can be fixed.  If.... IF we get a good idle with stock injectors, then we know what areas to work with with the larger injectors, OK?   I just wish to be SURE all systems function correctly, and you should, too.

Time to think outside of the mental box you have constructed for yourself.  This is EXACTLY what YOU tell ME.... so please listen, OK?

[rbabos]

Ron

IAC works by allowing more or less AIR into the intake, it is simply an air valve..  The ECM controls the fuel.  BOTH have to work in conjunction.  I'm thinking the ECM isn't liking the new injectors and it is sending out too much fuel, exactly like Bob is saying.  DBW bikes have NO IAC, because the plate motor can open the plate to allow more air when cold.  IAC does this on a cable bike...

Just for shits and giggles... you ARE frustrated enough by now, lets just pop the stock injectors back in and simply SEE if the idle can be fixed.  If.... IF we get a good idle with stock injectors, then we know what areas to work with with the larger injectors, OK?   I just wish to be SURE all systems function correctly, and you should, too.

Time to think outside of the mental box you have constructed for yourself.  This is EXACTLY what YOU tell ME.... so please listen, OK?

Well, I spent quite a bit of time on it today and got it to the point where it's really not all that bad, considering what it was for the last 1500 miles. Dropped the idle speed in the cold zone because it was hitting the fatter afrs needed in my 1250 transition area. 1160 cold start and 1016 hot idle now. Leaned the richer front cyl with ve changes and only kept the hot areas active for warmup enrichment. Once again, tried the iac logged points transfer to map and had major flare on starting. Cranking iac does not fix it, so left it as is. Actually idles good now. On to the next problem. Remember my knocking at idle, only when hot? Still there.
Ron

[wurk_truk]

Just did first heat cycle on new pistons.  I hear ya.