Question for the Panhead Guy's

[Redleg]

The bike I bought was making quite a nasty sound and it was coming from the primary, so I took the cover off and found this. I'll go pick up a new chain tomorrow. I asked the fella I bought it from about the hose routed through the primary he said it was a breather hose, after reading the manual I think it should be the front chain oiler? Hard for me to tell by the pics in the manual and a lack of oil would explain the condition of the chain and other things in the primary. Am I close? Now when I change the chain I need to pull the front pulley and the clutch correct? I'd appreciate some advice, I have an original HD manuel for the bike.   Thanks Bob

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[HogMike]

The bike I bought was making quite a nasty sound and it was coming from the primary, so I took the cover off and found this. I'll go pick up a new chain tomorrow. I asked the fella I bought it from about the hose routed through the primary he said it was a breather hose, after reading the manual I think it should be the front chain oiler? Hard for me to tell by the pics in the manual and a lack of oil would explain the condition of the chain and other things in the primary. Am I close? Now when I change the chain I need to pull the front pulley and the clutch correct? I'd appreciate some advice, I have an original HD manuel for the bike.   Thanks Bob

There is a front chain oiler, and a drain tube/fitting on the back of the inner primary cover.
Depending on the year of the bike you can adjust the amount of oil coming to the chain case. Take that funky hose out of there and adjust your tranny to take up the slack.

[Redleg]

The bike is a 57' and the clip on the master link broke off. That chain has about 2" of slack in it, I'd feel better replacing it. How much can the trans move during adjustment? I was reading the manual about adjusting the chain oiler. Thanks Bob

[CraigArizona85248]

The transmission has about 3/4" to 1" of front-to-back movement.  That may well be enough to take the slack out of your chain.  But if it's been run with little or no oil then it's probably toast.  The guy shouldn't have routed the breather out of the primary.  The breather also supplies the primary chain oil.  The only time you want to route that breather/oil out of the primary is if you have replaced the chain with a belt.  It still looks pretty oily inside the primary though.  Do you have a bad motor shaft seal?

-Craig

[mike c]

  Just like craig said. Do not remove that breather hose. It should actually be a curved pipe pointing down at your chain which you can buy from JP Cycles for about 25 bucks or so but the hose will work. What ever you do don't plug that breather off like was done on the Pan I bought this winter. The oil that accumulates in the primary will drain out and also lube your drive chain and totally keep   the left side of your rear rim from ever rusting. Good luck with your Pan.

[Pzokes]

I think that I'd pull the front sprocket, clutch, and remove the inner primary.  The original breather/chain oiler is also a motor case through bolt.  You can see the other end of it by the oil pump.  The replacement breather/oiler/bolt is made by V-Twin, so just look for who has the best pricing.

I agree with Craig that you should check the front seal, and I think that you should use some low pressure air to check the transmission seals.  Try looking at some of the earlier posts on this.

When I install a primary chain, on a tin primary bike, I always squirt the chain with a good chain lube after installing it.  Though the breather is a chain oiler, it's not going to instantly lube the chain.

What do you have for an oil pump?  Some people install late model aftermarket oil pumps.  Some of those pumps do not have provision for chain oil adjustment.

[Redleg]

I was planning on taking the inner primary off, there was two halfs of a chain roller laying in the cover so the chain get's replaced. The cover itself is an after market stamped made in taiwan, so I'm thinking buy one from v-twin with the proper fittings. I thinking v-twin would be a better quality??? I'll have to ask about the oil pump, I read about the oiler adjustment so I know where that's at. Thanks  the saga begins...

[Dave_R]

hey Redleg!

  One thing that I noticed is that you are running a solid sprocket on the motor.  While a lot of guys do this, in my experience the solid sprockets "eat" primary chains.  I used to go through at least one per season running a solid (It would constantly stretch to where you could not adjust it).
  When the chain is stretched to where the tranny adjustment is at the max, the chain will start to bind on the sprockets because it does not fit quite right anymore with the sprocket teeth (spacing of the chain is increased).
  The fix for me was to run a spring loaded compensator sprocket.  (It will take away the shock load from the engine to the chain)  I haven't had to get a new primary chain for at least 15 years now.
  Since you have a '57 with the splined shaft, these comp sprockets are relatively available on places like swap meets and EBay. (The tapered shaft ones are a little harder to find like I run).  They come with various numbers of teeth (up to 24), so get the one for the ratio you want.
  Getting the chain oiler setting is a "tricky" thing, as too much and it starts to leak out of the primary, and too little will dry up the chain.  ( see Mike c's post )  The ideal setup would be to keep the hose like you have, and see if you can find a "o" ring self-lubricated chain, but I don't think one exists.
  What I did with mine is put about a one-inch piece of hose on the breather so that the oil will drip in the middle of the chain.  There is a similar device called a "snoot" that is suposed to be there, but a piece of hose works for me just fine.

-  Just another thought while you have it apart -

Oh, and about the Tiawan tins you have - The one I received two years ago from V-Twin has a Tiawan stamp on it as well.
I also have not run across any primary chains that have a "master" link on it.  They have all been continuous-link chains, but again it has been a few years now since I bought one (Diamond or Tsubaki).

[HogMike]

hey Redleg!

  One thing that I noticed is that you are running a solid sprocket on the motor.  While a lot of guys do this, in my experience the solid sprockets "eat" primary chains.  I used to go through at least one per season running a solid (It would constantly stretch to where you could not adjust it).
  When the chain is stretched to where the tranny adjustment is at the max, the chain will start to bind on the sprockets because it does not fit quite right anymore with the sprocket teeth (spacing of the chain is increased).
  The fix for me was to run a spring loaded compensator sprocket.  (It will take away the shock load from the engine to the chain)  I haven't had to get a new primary chain for at least 15 years now.
  Since you have a '57 with the splined shaft, these comp sprockets are relatively available on places like swap meets and EBay. (The tapered shaft ones are a little harder to find like I run).  They come with various numbers of teeth (up to 24), so get the one for the ratio you want.
  Getting the chain oiler setting is a "tricky" thing, as too much and it starts to leak out of the primary, and too little will dry up the chain.  ( see Mike c's post )  The ideal setup would be to keep the hose like you have, and see if you can find a "o" ring self-lubricated chain, but I don't think one exists.
  What I did with mine is put about a one-inch piece of hose on the breather so that the oil will drip in the middle of the chain.  There is a similar device called a "snoot" that is suposed to be there, but a piece of hose works for me just fine.

-  Just another thought while you have it apart -

Oh, and about the Tiawan tins you have - The one I received two years ago from V-Twin has a Tiawan stamp on it as well.
I also have not run across any primary chains that have a "master" link on it.  They have all been continuous-link chains, but again it has been a few years now since I bought one (Diamond or Tsubaki).

What he said!
If you want stock looking, pull the primary chain out, replace with a belt drive, put on the stock tins, reroute the front chain oiler/breather and no one will be the wiser!
I used that setup on my '56 and it worked great, and no maintenance issues!
Just a suggestion.

[CraigArizona85248]

As Dave_R posted, you'll probably get the same Tiawanese tins from Vtwin that you have today.  Paughco is a great supplier of made in the USA parts.  They started out making replacement primary tins and they still make them today www.paughco.com.

A belt conversion is a nice clean way to setup your primary.  As was noted, the 1.5" wide belts fit under the covers and look totally stock.

Here is my setup:

Notice I have the breather routed like yours (outside the primary) because you don't want to oil a belt.


Hard to tell it's not stock with the cover on.

[Redleg]

Where should I look for a belt drive? Looks like a good way to go.

[Redleg]

I also have not run across any primary chains that have a "master" link on it.  They have all been continuous-link chains, but again it has been a few years now since I bought one (Diamond or Tsubaki).

I agree Dave,I talked  to my neighbor who is retired from Ford's and he said in the past they used a chain to run the lines in the factory and that they would work on a HD primary so some of the Harley riders who worked there would take lengths of it and use it for just that. That's what I think I have here. Attached is  picture of the master link and the pieces I fished out of the primary cover. You guy's have me convinced about the belt drive. If I buy the front pully belt and rear pully that v-twin has listed would I be able to use the stock clutch that I have now?

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[HogMike]

I also have not run across any primary chains that have a "master" link on it.  They have all been continuous-link chains, but again it has been a few years now since I bought one (Diamond or Tsubaki).

I agree Dave,I talked  to my neighbor who is retired from Ford's and he said in the past they used a chain to run the lines in the factory and that they would work on a HD primary so some of the Harley riders who worked there would take lengths of it and use it for just that. That's what I think I have here. Attached is  picture of the master link and the pieces I fished out of the primary cover. You guy's have me convinced about the belt drive. If I buy the front pully belt and rear pully that v-twin has listed would I be able to use the stock clutch that I have now?

Yes!

[Redleg]

Thank you Hogmike.

[twincamzz]

As Dave_R posted, you'll probably get the same Tiawanese tins from Vtwin that you have today.  Paughco is a great supplier of made in the USA parts.  They started out making replacement primary tins and they still make them today www.paughco.com.

A belt conversion is a nice clean way to setup your primary.  As was noted, the 1.5" wide belts fit under the covers and look totally stock.

Here is my setup:

Notice I have the breather routed like yours (outside the primary) because you don't want to oil a belt.

Craig, I couldn't help but notice that you have the inner primary cover notched for part of the transmission. Any particular reason for this ?

Redleg, I'm also running the BDL belt drive & am quite pleased. Once properly set up it should provide years of dependable, clean service compared to a chain.

[Redleg]

V-twin has two BDL belt drives listed an 8mm and an 11mm 1 1/2", which should I buy?

[Pzokes]

I've tried BDL belt drives, and other makes, but now I only use Supermax belt drives.  The BDL has the cheapest price, and uses aluminum  pulleys.  The Supermax uses poly pulleys that match the composition of the belt to insure long life.  All belt drives should be set up right to align the motor and transmission.  I think that the transmission plate that has two adjustment screws at the rear works best.  Sometimes you also have to shim the transmission to get everything perfect.  A belt drive also needs a little airflow to extend belt life.  Some people drill holes in the primary, space the inner and outer apart with washers, or run an open belt drive.  The Supermax belt drive is the original belt drive that was later copied by others.  It was invented by Dick Allen and later made by his friend Phil Ross.  It was also the belt drive that Gates Rubber engineers showed Harley.

[twincamzz]

V-twin has two BDL belt drives listed an 8mm and an 11mm 1 1/2", which should I buy?

the 8mm system comes with  28/45 teeth on the pulleys, the 11mm comes with 31/47. Depending on what final drive ratio you want to end up with by changing the drive sprockets, take your pick.

Here's a good gear ratio calculator where you can input the numbers & see what you end up with : http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/calc_gearratios.htm

[Deye76]

Redleg, hard to tell from the pictures, but that looks like low speed double row machine chain. If it is it will keep on stretching till the cows come home. Good advice given on running a belt drive. 

[CraigArizona85248]

I've tried BDL belt drives, and other makes, but now I only use Supermax belt drives.  The BDL has the cheapest price, and uses aluminum  pulleys.  The Supermax uses poly pulleys that match the composition of the belt to insure long life.

I agree 100%.  The belt drive in my photo above is a SuperMax.  That belt drive has about 60K miles on it and still looks like new.  I have a Primo hanging on the wall with 10K miles on it that shows a very noticable amount of wear on the belt and pullies (aluminum).  I'm totally sold on the polyurethane belt drives from SuperMax.

-Craig

[Redleg]

OK Guy's I'm looking into the Supermax, found their website but gotta call for price's. I do believe I'll be asking a few more questions...   Thanks Bob

[Redleg]

Called Supermax today they're closed until May 10th, oh well everyone needs time off. But I was wondering what the price would be for the beltdrive setup for my 57, anyone have a ballpark figure so's I won't be stricken by stickershock??  Thanks Bob

[CraigArizona85248]

My SuperMax belt drive cost ~$500.  But that was a number of years ago.

-Craig

[Redleg]

Thanks Craig that's about what I was expecting, I can deal with that and I realize it'll be a bit more.

[Pzokes]

The last belt drive that I bought from them was about the same price as Craig paid.  It was an "Exchange Drive".  With an Exchange Drive, you send in a good clutch hub and they bond the poly teeth to it.

The last two Supermax belt drives that I bought were used.  One is a Silent drive, and one is a Electric Start Exchange Drive.  The Silent Drive has some gouging in the clutch hub from someone using the clutch plates with the brass embedded into them.  I use a steel plate first to stop any further damage.  It's now going to be installed on my new chopper.  The electric start belt drive needed  the 3 piece ring gear replaced with the newer 1 piece ring gear. 

One of the worst things that I did was to let a Supermax belt drive go with a Panhead that I sold to a guy from OK.

I'm very glad to see that the family is carrying on with the business after Phil's untimely death this year.

If you buy a Supermax, be sure to do the complete setup & alignment .  If you do, it will be the last belt drive that you will ever buy.

[CraigArizona85248]

If you buy a Supermax, be sure to do the complete setup & alignment .  If you do, it will be the last belt drive that you will ever buy.

I sure agree with that!  It took a bit of coaxing (some minor trans plate modification) to get my drive aligned right, but it sure has made a difference.  Clutch works better and the belt tracks perfectly.  Haven't had to touch the trans alignment since last time I had it out of the frame in August 2007.  That's ~37K miles ago near as I can figure.

-Craig

[rbonner]

Hey Craig, do you tighten that belt up or is that the correct tension?

BOB

[CraigArizona85248]

Bob,

Just eyeballing it, I believe that belt has already been tensioned.  They seem loose, but Phil Ross always told me nothing kills a belt faster then being over tensioned.... or misaligned.

-Craig

[rbonner]

Oh OK

[Redleg]

OK I just talked to Supermax and was told that Phil had passed away last December and belt drive kits won't be available for a couple of months. So which alternative manufacturer do you fella's recomend? Bob

[stroker800]

  I have 3 belts in operation,,always had BDL..I use the 8mm style for all 3...As stated check the seals for motor and tranny,,oil will shorten belt life....As stated the pullies are anodized aluminum...I find they last pretty good,,but the killer seems to be gravel dust on my open 3"..I can see some wear on my 8 yr old set up,,also have 2 holes in belt from rocks goin thru..As stated alignment is everything with a belt,,not forgiving like a chain ..In fact it will jump off pullies if not tracking true,,,also tension,,they like it loose,,they tighten when operating..If wanting to use stock HD clutch,,I believe,,"the big fix" kit or a ramjett will keep the clutch from walking in/out..Good luck with bike,,let us know if you need any other info..
Dave

[Redleg]

Well tried installing the beltdrive today wound up pulling the transmission to elongate the mounting holes couldn't get it close enough. Now I need to learn how to put it back together. Good thing I like adventure's.. I'll be asking more questions fellas if'in ya don't mind. Any pointers about puttin it back in the frame?