How to get BEST 'Home Made Tune?

[rbabos]

I can do that.  I was more wondering if homemade lost BIG to the original dyno tune I have.

Gimma a month... I will have all four maps ready to go.  Be an interesting job for me to do, and fun for ME.

something else to look at ...the farther away from desired AFR you tune to the more the ve's will be off ,when you change your AFR tables.
been shot down on this before. but it is a fact. you tune to 14.6 and then change to 13.2 in the afr table the ve's will be off SOME, if you go back and run them again. so with twin scan try to tune to desired afr as much as possible,so you don't have to re run them again. now if you tune (calibrate) cruise to say 14.2 and then later take it to 14.0 (afr table) there wont be much of a variance in what the ve's need corrected . but you make a big jump  they will be off SOME.

I find this interesting since my low end will not vtune correctly. My only hope for half assed smooth is to increase the afrs to 13.4 ish in the low end. Is this telling me that my ve's are too low in the low end, and I'm compensating.  Here's something interesting. Origially I was doing the 5-10% up and down with the ve's and the idle went seriously south, so I always put it back. Then it dawned on me, leave the idle ve's as is and work above it. Experts said my rear is showing reversion, but no luck with ve changes there. Moved to the front ve's and wtf, got a noticable improvement with a ballpark 5% from 1125-1750. Added 1 to all these the next edit and it's a touch better again. Decided to install removable saddle bags ,just to get a break from all this, but the new map sensor is in now and will continue fresh with it's install next week.
Truk: It seems you've played with the ts long enough and you need to send it to me. I compliment you on what you are doing and sharing. It's still sad that all this extra equipment is needed to identify where the problem areas are to help out a tuning system.
Ron

[glens]

Check out the dtt tech page here http://www.daytona-sensors.com/tech_wego.html  A ton of good info on the lsu widebands and a bunch of links to other useful info.

Yes, that is a pretty good Web page.  I glanced through about the first half of it and a couple of things jumped right out at me:

"What AFR values are optimum when tuning an engine?
... Combustion of a stoichiometric mixture (exactly enough air to burn all the fuel) results in 14.7 AFR indication."

and

"What are the limitations of the wide-band sensor?
... gasoline containing ethanol will result is slight air/fuel reading errors."

This is what I was talking about earlier (maybe in this thread, maybe in one recently pertaining to adjusting CLBs to match different fuel [which isn't necessary]).  If you're running pure ethanol, stoich is 9:1 AFR, which will "result in 14.7 AFR indication".  The unit is hardcoded against straight gasoline and the resultant numbers are only relative to what's really going on.  The actual "lambda" values are the same between them, though, so it's okay.  Just consider that you're running "straight gasoline" no matter what it really is, when you're using "AFR" numbers these days.

Also, there's a prominent link to the sometimes-hard-to-locate Bosch technical data.

You know, if you actually read what's on that Web page, you'll see just about everything Steve's mentioned.  It's rather downplayed in the page, but it's still provided.  Kudos to DTT.

Thanks for the kind/encouraging words, "Deweysheads".

[BVHOG]

They really do lay it all out there with nothing to hide, no false claims etc. From what I gather using the 5 wire sensors on the dyno will not be a problem as far as vibration or  back pressure but I could see some problems with temperature when located too close to the exhaust valve in the pipe. But the stock sensors would suffer the same fate.  Anyone know how high the exhaust gas temps read under various running conditons on a twincam, assuming the fuel mixture is relatively close?

[Don D]

Ever notice how the stock pipes have the sensor in a piece of pipe away from right in the exhaust stream. Most aftermarket pipes just weld them on. The bungs that is. Any issues with that?

[wurk_truk]

I just went out to look at the bungs.  TS sends the weldable nuts.  Thats all they are, too, a nut with a flange that fits thru the pipe.   My Bosscats are like the pipes from MOCO... they have the 'pipe'.  Looks to me that the 'pipe is used to gain O2 placement within not only the pipe, but the bike, too.  If they simply used the nuts as bungs, the O2s would point in directions that would not be equal to the stock orientation.

From visual inspection, it appears that the tips of the O2s are in the stream but the full heads are not.  Can see carbon rings where that portion of head is in the bung.

Wonder how much of an O2 sensor needs to be directly in the exhaust stream?

Would like to build a sniffer and get the tube close to the front O2 position and put bike in closed loop.  Check what the outputted AFR is.  SHOULD match the command plus the CLB..... 

[Don D]

Why not develop your own timing strategy? Study the topic and look specifically at the requirements of a high performance relatively high compression motor. Lot of this stuff is not cut and paste. Theory from other automotive applications will cross over.

[FLTRI]

The thing I, and others, wonder... is what base map works the best in a given application.

Just for chits and giggles, take the 3 cals and put them up on the screen with the file comments. You will see where the timing is different according to the builds.

One way to tune is to pick the closest cam timing map, tune the VEs, then start
copy/pasting different timing maps to see how each runs with corrected VEs.

Then, after the most favorable timing map is picked, revisit the VE tuning to make minor corrections from the ignition map change effects.
Just my $.02
Bob

[Steve Cole]

OK.  Got that.  But I started fresh with a new base map and all vs You know whos tune.  That tune got 40 MPG tops (usually 38ish)  THIS tune gets 43ish and I wonder if the added mileage means loss of power?  Might be a thing to put THAT map open loop and TS it and see what happens...

I get the point. So... if tuned all at 14.6 and I change to 14.2... run TS again and find the new settings.

I think that you are beginning to get it. Understand that the fuel varies enough these days to really make a change in what's going on. While it's not for everyone we only start and end the testing on the same exact fuel due to these issues. While we can and do buy test gasoline when were ready for street tuning it's down to the local station with a 55 gallon drum. Fill it up and use only that fuel from the drum while testing. It's a pain but when you see the swings we have it really opens your eye's. We have seen mixtures move as much as 1 AFR on pump fuels. While this is an extreme change to some it's not to others.

The AFR meters that have hard coded results are going to show the change in fuel only if you know what your looking for. So if the meter is coded for a fuel with a Stoich value of 14.68 and you run a fuel with a stoich value of 14.2 what's the meter going to show?


Mileage for the most part is the first 25% of the throttle and not many do much if any testing down in this area on the dyno. So dyno results are not going to show anything much about mileage. So what this means is you can get a dyno of 100/100 from one dyno tuned combination and get 30 mpg while a different dyno tune on the same combination get 102/102 and 43 mpg so dyno number really have little to do with mileage.

[glens]

The AFR meters that have hard coded results are going to show the change in fuel only if you know what your looking for. So if the meter is coded for a fuel with a Stoich value of 14.68 and you run a fuel with a stoich value of 14.2 what's the meter going to show?

Ahem; cough.  It'll show "14.7" on the meter when you're running "14.2" with the fuel.  But this won't matter in the least because lambda=1 in both the meter and in the running engine in this case.  If you want to go to lambda=0.9 from there, it'll actually be mixing at "12.8" and the meter will show "13.2", which is perfectly okay, even if you thought your gas was 14.7 stoich AFR and you were targeting "13.2" with it, and it's actually 14.2 gas.  You'll have the exact equivalent.  All this in a perfect world for purposes of this discussion, naturally.

If the system is closed-loop and you change fuel composition with a fill-up, between the two fuels being considered here it amounts to a 3.5% difference in fueling needs under any circumstance.  If one's AFVs aren't tapped out anywhere (but how can we know?) this change will in all likelihood be accommodated without any fanfare whatsoever.  If the system is open-loop with the same fuel change, I'd say "tune it with 14.2 gas so any errors will be to rich instead of lean when the change goes the other way".

Maybe another pertinent point to this whole discussion is that the TTS V-tune scheme is maybe best considered to be primarily a way to get the whole fueling system/control to be as happy with itself as it can be.  This is especially important, that the system be in a happy place, when closed-loop control is being utilized.  I feel the main benefit of having happy EFI control is that its adaptive mechanisms will have the most range to work in either direction if/when something comes up.

If the ultimate goal is to run strictly open-loop anyway (I'd have to wonder loudly "WHY?!) then perhaps, aside from being necessary to actually burn the ECM with new data with something, a third-party fuel-tune-developing scheme/system is perfectly fine to use.

In my mind, however, I see possible ramifications of trying to get the two schemes on the same page.  Make that "same sentence".  If the two are telling you slightly different things and only one of them makes the EFI system happy, the other stuff is going to have to be factored accordingly.

wurk_truk:  you can safely play around with these calibrations without committing any changes to files on disk.  Load up one calibration in one window, then fire up another one with the other calibration it.  Oh, wait, I think I tried copying whole tables between two active windows and it didn't work.  Maybe it can't be quite that easy.  Maybe you need to load the first calibration and select to copy whatever tables, then open the other calibration in that same window and paste them into it.

The initial calibration will become the "baseline" (I think that's the one; there are three levels, the original, one that's been saved as the baseline, and the one you're interacting with.  After you've gotten the first promoted into the middle position and the new tables into the "working copy", you can select to show the tables with the difference between any two levels.  This is quite handy.  I like to enable colors on the tables as handy eye-catchers.

When you're done, you can do all or nothing with your efforts.

[Hogflash]

I have copy/pasted between two open Mastertunes.  Just highlight one whole table and then copy... highlite the receiving table and hit paste.

The ctl-C / ctl-V copy and paste functions use the windows clipboard to pass data, so you can copy tables between different programs (or two instances of Mastertune). 

What Glens was referring to is the multiple table copy-and-paste, which is a different function.  This only works within a single instance of Mastertune - the reason being it also does 2D interpolation of the data to allow upgrading from early MT6 files to newer MT7 files which have different X- and Y-axis breakpoints.

--Gary

[Steve Cole]

Understand that the AFV's some of you are asking about do not come out of the HD ECM code, so it's not there to be read. We could rewrite the code to do it but real see no need for it. What we removed from the first version was done as it was causing more trouble than good. So then people ran around saying we cut back the product when what we did was to stop the confusion as it didn't do what some were lead to believe by others outside of TTS.

Also people need to understand that not all the calibrations work in the same way, there are familys and they work different! So there is no one size fits all. If you were to understand what I do it would be easy to explain but I do not see that happening anytime soon.

Just to do a quick overview of something that is going to screw with those asking is that how many AFV's do you think that there is in the ECM? 10,20, 30......... and how are they used. Truth is they are used part of the time and not all of the time, so how are YOU going to know when and which ones and when they mean anything? A typical HD built calibration only has 12 AFV's and they do not cover the entire operating range of the closed loop system, so now what? All closed loop .MT7 file are NOT the same as the HD calibrations, I've change how things work to allow Vtune to work over the range we specify which very nicely covers the entire closed loop operating range. Just as there are many more things that needed to be changed to make all this work the way it should.

Understanding the O2 sensor system is a big part of understanding what's going to do what to a calibration and those that come on here and say this or that have little to no understand of the interworkings of it all. Look I am all for making it easier but somethings are best left the way they are to stop confusion, but to think that your going to out do the ECM when it comes to closed loop control areas of the engine operation it's not going to happen. The ECM wins regaurdless of what you or I think. With that said, maybe now some will understanding that outside devices do not read correctly nor the same as the ECM and you just might begin to understand why it's important to me.

With the fuel the way it is today and where it maybe tomorrow the closed loop system is going to play an important roll in keeping things running correctly day in and day out. That may or maynot be the same AFR as reported on an outside device!

Wurk_truk

You should use the automatic copy feature to move tables from one calibration to the other as it make sure thing fit in properly. The feature is called "Copy Multiple Tables". You can reaad about it in the "help" section of Mastertune.

[rbabos]

Well, just swapped out the map sensor and it was a waste of time. Same low end readings, maybe even 1kpa lower than the old unit. Just to confirm it's the correct one, the old sensor # is 28004403/70254
New sensor is 16212460/82742883 The invoice part number is 32316-99. Bike runs the same so I guess it's the correct Delco part, but thought I'd ask here to be sure.
Ron

[strokerjlk]

snapped a pic of WURK TRUK preparing to collect some data.
go hit the hills buddy......

[slik rik]

  #
# How to get BEST 'Home Made Tune?

yeah right, if I want to spend 2 grand and still have to go dyno it

Granted this conversation is highly informative of the failings of all these devices. And of course the amount of tech knowledge on afr but for the "home" guy its to much bs. The reason I found this post was I was looking at the twinscan/wego thing, but after reading I'm more confused.

So heres my .02  I'm going to get a factory pro tune at big boyz, going to get rid of my power commander and go with what they want to tune with. After reading all the post it seems that the 4 gas setup is best. And cost prohibitive for a home user.

I understand some of you guys have  a distance to get to the tuner and some may want to play with toys....no issue there, but as you guys have shown in this thread its more complicated, work, and expertise than what most of these advertisers state

Great thread tho' learned alot.......

You guys rock and no disrespect but not "Home tune" not even close

[hotroadking]

Wurk, do what I did, find 4 guys that have similar bike ages that the Wego works with, we split the cost, so it cut it down significantly.

Everyone has the TTS, two have been dyno tuned and picked up power over street tunes using WEGO, and V-tune, none of the "street tunes" were used by the dyno operators, both tossed out
the work and went from scratch....  Makes senses why mess with someone elses stuff.

Basically if you like playing with these things and trying to learn and get EFI tuning right, great, but if you are looking for the tune to be done and just ride then Slik Rik has it right, find the best tuner in your area, buy whatever application you need to tune the bike that he is good with and
go there to spend the green and ride....

[wavlovr1]

I have used the TwinScan/Wego system alot and found it to be quite a lot of work, especially if you change any components down the road and have to set it all up and redo. The powercomander is pretty good, but it basically alters the info coming from the ECU which is kinda adding more complictions, especially if the ecu's base map is not colse enough to compensate for your engines needs. By far the fastest, easiest, system I have used so far is the TTS tuner. It allows access to change settings in the ecu itself that need to be modified for best performance and MPG. Plus you still get to retain the best features of the ecu like the spark knock prevention.

Just my expierence, JimBob

#
# How to get BEST 'Home Made Tune?

yeah right, if I want to spend 2 grand and still have to go dyno it

Granted this conversation is highly informative of the failings of all these devices. And of course the amount of tech knowledge on afr but for the "home" guy its to much bs. The reason I found this post was I was looking at the twinscan/wego thing, but after reading I'm more confused.

So heres my .02  I'm going to get a factory pro tune at big boyz, going to get rid of my power commander and go with what they want to tune with. After reading all the post it seems that the 4 gas setup is best. And cost prohibitive for a home user.

I understand some of you guys have  a distance to get to the tuner and some may want to play with toys....no issue there, but as you guys have shown in this thread its more complicated, work, and expertise than what most of these advertisers state

Great thread tho' learned alot.......

You guys rock and no disrespect but not "Home tune" not even close

[strokerjlk]

Wurk, do what I did, find 4 guys that have similar bike ages that the Wego works with, we split the cost, so it cut it down significantly.

the twin scan works with ALL FI Harley's and will work on carbed Harley's as well. so it dosent matter if your doing a group buy...that the bikes are similar.
FWIW I got a cal gas test sheet from another tuner that just bought a new twin scan wego.
Ends up the DTT TS II WEGO system and DJ system read within one tenth of each other on the 13.0 gas, and read even on the 13.9 gas.

[BVHOG]

Wurk, do what I did, find 4 guys that have similar bike ages that the Wego works with, we split the cost, so it cut it down significantly.

the twin scan works with ALL FI Harley's and will work on carbed Harley's as well. so it dosent matter if your doing a group buy...that the bikes are similar.

FWIW I got a cal gas test sheet from another tuner that just bought a new twin scan wego.
Ends up the DTT TS II WEGO system and DJ system read within one tenth of each other on the 13.0 gas, and read even on the 13.9 gas.

Wow, that's interesting info after reading here so many times about their inaccuracy, but for those of us who have been using the system it comes as no surprise.

[FLTRI]

Wow, that's interesting info after reading here so many times about their inaccuracy, but for those of us who have been using the system it comes as no surprise.

Sounds like some MASTER-BATING goin' on here? Seems you and strokerjlk sit back a wait for oportunities to discredit some expert's knowlegable input.

Since there is NOTHING absolutely accurate in this world we live in it is always a challenge to minimize variables so results are as repeatable as possible. This why there are inexpensive ($70+/-$20) and very expensive  ($700+/-$500) O2 sensors...guess which ones are more accurate?

What a tuner has to answer is; just how accurate does he/she need to be to provide a great running bike that gets good mileage???

Just the way I see it,
Bob

[Eleft36]

I'm not sure there is a I'm better than you discussion going on here, I don't get that...  but maybe the discussion is more along the lines of how can you can prove it. 

Based on the definition that a 100% tune hits all your desired AFR numbers spot on for all conditions, one discussion seams to me to be more about, given the technology available, how you know that you are hitting these desired numbers 100% spot on, even by using high dollar equipment. And if you are compromising on your measurement technique to hit another price point, how can you prove to be spot on?  Are we just kidding ourselves?

The other discussion may be more about which AFR targets are really right or maybe that it really doesn't make any difference AFR wise as long as you are close (until you get into the highly built motors). The difference is in fine tuning the timing perhaps?  I dunno

Perhaps we need more street face offs as the two face offs I've seen published tuned slightly modified bikes with TTS and then a competent pro dyno tuned using his bag of tricks. Both tunes ran the same (on the street), and was within 1HP and 1lBft WOT power. The pro was then able to get a slightly smoother tune and a couple HP by tweaking timing, which may be another black art subject.

I mean there were quite a few years there when everyone thought the earth was flat and proved it using subjective and flawed measurements....

Let’s digress to 1930 and the “Henry Ford” technology for the do it yourself tuner.
From the driver seat I could tune my 1931 Model “A” pickup on the go.
On the steering wheel center is 2 levers, one for the throttle (cruse
Control) the other used to adjust the ignition timing real time. 
On the passenger side, reachable by the driver, under the fuel tank a knurled choke knob which also, when twisted, changed the “high speed jet” setting also real time.
Can we call the driver the first “Alfa N” position sensor? 
Or just the use of "seat of the pants" reality?
Yes, you've come a long way. Just turn the switch push the button and twist the throttle, not to worry.
Al

[Heatwave3]

This thread has been quiet for a while. Does this new Dynojet tuning device with Powercommander software for flashing the HD ECU move "home tuning" up a notch? http://www.fuelmotousa.com/powervision.htm

[BigD]

This thread has been quiet for a while. Does this new Dynojet tuning device with Powercommander software for flashing the HD ECU move "home tuning" up a notch? http://www.fuelmotousa.com/powervision.htm

Or does it just have Dynojet catching up with TTS and SESPT?

Competition is good for everyone.  It keeps the vendors on their toes and bring better products to market.  Of course, they will all have to change in the next year or so because of the new bus Harley is implementing

[hrdtail78]

This thread has been quiet for a while. Does this new Dynojet tuning device with Powercommander software for flashing the HD ECU move "home tuning" up a notch? http://www.fuelmotousa.com/powervision.htm

To give an educated guess, I would wait for the product to actually be released and used.  It's all hearsay untill then.

[mayor]

Wow, that's interesting info after reading here so many times about their inaccuracy, but for those of us who have been using the system it comes as no surprise.

Sounds like some MASTER-BATING goin' on here? Seems you and strokerjlk sit back a wait for oportunities to discredit some expert's knowlegable input.

Just the way I see it,
Bob

and calling it "master-bating" is less offensive?  or less discrediting?   

o2 sensor accuracy has been a point of contention for a long time in this section, I read BVhog's comments as nothing more than a supportive response to comments he's posted previously. 

We all need to be sensitive to the fact that this is an open forum in which one's person opinion should not limit another from voicing their's, whether that person is considered a knowledgeable expert or not.  Also keep in mind, this is a forum where no one member should be presumed more expert than another.   The reader has the option of determining that for themselves.  Besides, there are many on the forum including myself who appreciate getting their technical data from more than one source.