Another Zippers ThunderMax adjustment question.

[Paniolo]

'01 Ultra. 96" AMS pistons, AMS Heads, Andrews 26G cams, Stock head pipes, D&D Police interceptor slipons, Zippers T-Max Marelli conversion kit with Zippers throttle body.

The bike starts and runs fine. When warm, sometimes it becomes difficult to start. It will crank and crank and crank, then fire right up after 2-3 tries. Sometimes it will fire right up, it always does cold. Zippers says it may be a full pressure problem, but I don't have the tool to check the pressure.

I think it may be either the Cranking Fuel (currently set to 5.2) or Initial Fuel Pulse (currently set to 199%).

Does anyone here have experience with this?

Mark

[rbabos]

I would up the cranking fuel to about 7 and try that. if better keep upping it until you get results. I ran 249 pulse and 7.9 on my 96 for what it's worth.
Ron

[Paniolo]

I would up the cranking fuel to about 7 and try that. if better keep upping it until you get results. I ran 249 pulse and 7.9 on my 96 for what it's worth.
Ron

Thanks. I warmed it up and slowly increased the cranking fuel. It's at 7.9 now. I'll try it and see how it does. It was kinda embarassing this past weekend when the motorcycle instructor had to crank and crank and crank before his bike started up.

Zippers said I had to wait for the check engine light to go out before starting, not on my bike but on ALL HDs. I never did that before, do you?

[rbabos]

While I don't think it has any bearing on starting I always let the ecm do the diagnostic before firing it up, even the Delphi that's back on the bike now with tts. Just a habbit now. Without enough fuel for starting it can get brutal on the starter clutch too. You know that gear grinding sound? Another thing I've found help easing the starter loads and get softer starts is to drop the timing to 1 degree at 0-256 rpms in the timing vrs engine speed map.
Ron

[Paniolo]

So then it jumps from 1 degree at 256 up to 8 degrees at 512, is that right?

[rbabos]

So then it jumps from 1 degree at 256 up to 8 degrees at 512, is that right?

Correct.
Ron

[Paniolo]

Ron,

I dropped the timing to 3 degrees instead of 1 and raised the initial fuel pulse from 199 to 203. That seems to have done it. That and waiting for the red engine light to go out. However, in the 9 years that I have had the bike, I can't ever remember having to wait for the light to go out. I may be wrong, but I used to be able to turn the knob, flip on the cut off switch, hit the starter button and it would fire right up. But I guess at my age I can wait a few more seconds.

Mark

[rbabos]

Ron,

I dropped the timing to 3 degrees instead of 1 and raised the initial fuel pulse from 199 to 203. That seems to have done it. That and waiting for the red engine light to go out. However, in the 9 years that I have had the bike, I can't ever remember having to wait for the light to go out. I may be wrong, but I used to be able to turn the knob, flip on the cut off switch, hit the starter button and it would fire right up. But I guess at my age I can wait a few more seconds.

Mark

Don't be afraid to go to 1 degree. Delphi starts at 0 and instantly jumps to the 20s. However 3 will give noticable improvement over most base maps that start at 8-9 degrees. Same with the fuel pulse, or cranking fuel. Hot starts is the acid test here. Poor hot starts indicates insufficiant fuel. Strangly enough more fuel is needed to fire up a heat soaked engine due to rapid evaporation. A cranking fuel increase usually fixes this hot start issue, better than fuel pulse which is a better adjustment for cold start. I guess I should have been more clear on that, but sounds like you got a handle on what to do.
Ron

[Paniolo]

Ron,

I can understand how increasing fuel at start up helps, but how does retarding the timing to 1 degree at start up make a difference?

Mark

[rbabos]

Ron,

I can understand how increasing fuel at start up helps, but how does retarding the timing to 1 degree at start up make a difference?

Mark

Two separate issues. It won't help or hinder the lack of fuel that you are working on at the moment, but it will eliminate possible kickback and gives a more gentle startup of the engine once you get the correct starting fuel.
Ron

[jtaeza]

Hawaiian Cowboy (Paniolo)

I was faced with the same issue. On my original canned MAP (#523) my cranking fuel was at 8.3 which I upped to 9 and the initial fuel pulse is set at 249%.

I spoke with a tech at Skips Speed & Custom Cycles and he said that it's most likely that the T-Max was in the process of writing the learned offsets, that to wait a few minutes after a ride before restarting.

Aloha!

[rbabos]

Hawaiian Cowboy (Paniolo)

I was faced with the same issue. On my original canned MAP (#523) my cranking fuel was at 8.3 which I upped to 9 and the initial fuel pulse is set at 249%.

I spoke with a tech at Skips Speed & Custom Cycles and he said that it's most likely that the T-Max was in the process of writing the learned offsets, that to wait a few minutes after a ride before restarting.

Aloha!

The offsets are created and stored in the module during the rides. Writing the offsets to the map requires a command to do so, at least it was when I owned one. These offsets are written to the map manually to create a new map with the latest offsets. Next rides, new offsets are created, which can be written at a later date. About three sessions of this you will see very little changes happening and the base map is now custom taylored to your bike and the best it will get. If at any time timing adjustments are made, since this is a manual process this will alter the fuel some, so a couple more fuel offset writes are in order to bring it back into best tune.
Ron

[Paniolo]

So what you're saying is that whenever I make an adjustment, I need to wait a few riding cycles for the system to learn and make changes. Did I get that right?

Mark

[rbabos]

So what you're saying is that whenever I make an adjustment, I need to wait a few riding cycles for the system to learn and make changes. Did I get that right?

Mark

Mark: Any adjustments you make in timing and afrs are instant. During the early stages fuel offsets are stored in the module and these happen over time with riding. These work in conjuntion with the map. If you write these offsets to the map , say once a week 3-4 different times or whatever it alters the map to a new state, being more complete giving you a custom map, rather than the canned state it was installed in. This is a bonus if you choose to try another at some point and come back to it. It will instal back to the fully tuned state again. Without offset writes it is still a canned map and the autotune needs to happen again from the start.
You can view the front and rear fuel offsets in the map with smartlink as to how much they have changed prior to writing if you wish. When you write, observe that the written blocks from the module now become the new map blocks with a position change. Eventually there won't be much change in the new blocks locations compared to the last writing. At this point consider it done and just ride it from that point. That's as good as autotune will give you in that map, at least in the fuel department. Timing is not autotuned .
Ron

[Paniolo]

Right now I am using map 462. Even though my engine is a 96" instead of a 95, I chose 462 because I am running the Zippers Throttle Body as part of the Marelli coversion kit. All the other maps had the stock HD throttle body. I'm hoping the AMS heads and 26G cams are similar enough to the HD Ported heads and RedShift 557 cams. I can't imagine that's theres too much difference between the D&D Police Interceptor slip ons and KW HP 100+ slip ons either.

Ron,
There has not been a change in writing offsets.

Paniolo,
Are you still using the 523 map?
My 26H cams come closer to the cam timing in the 493 map specs. The Basic speedo needed to be changed for my '07 FXSTC.
I don't know if the 26N and the 26H are the same grind.
My map is dialed in and running fantastic, of course it's a 103" now, not sure it would make much difference. I think the cam timing is important when choosing a map. The timing and AFR tweaks follow.

Al

[Paniolo]

Well that's the problem here,......I assumed that the offsets were written automatically as part of the auto-tune. I didn't know it was something I had to do manually. I just clicked on the Map Editing tab and saw in the drop down box a selection "Write Learned Fuel Adjustments (CLP OFFSETS)". I'm guessing I hook up, link on, monitor and click that selection with the bike running. Then for good measure, reinitialize. Did I get that right?

Mark

So what you're saying is that whenever I make an adjustment, I need to wait a few riding cycles for the system to learn and make changes. Did I get that right?

Mark

Mark: Any adjustments you make in timing and afrs are instant. During the early stages fuel offsets are stored in the module and these happen over time with riding. These work in conjuntion with the map. If you write these offsets to the map , say once a week 3-4 different times or whatever it alters the map to a new state, being more complete giving you a custom map, rather than the canned state it was installed in. This is a bonus if you choose to try another at some point and come back to it. It will instal back to the fully tuned state again. Without offset writes it is still a canned map and the autotune needs to happen again from the start.
You can view the front and rear fuel offsets in the map with smartlink as to how much they have changed prior to writing if you wish. When you write, observe that the written blocks from the module now become the new map blocks with a position change. Eventually there won't be much change in the new blocks locations compared to the last writing. At this point consider it done and just ride it from that point. That's as good as autotune will give you in that map, at least in the fuel department. Timing is not autotuned .
Ron

[Paniolo]

Interesting MAP. Did you alter the Air/Fuel@TPS settings? I ask because I tried something like that, only a bit more agressive (I leaned it out to 14.1) and a bit later in the curve. The bike ran well but real hot, so much so that yesterday in traffic the engine became heat soaked even while moving slowly. While the CEL never went on (cyl head temps past 350) the engine oil temp was at 300 (I have a cooler) and extended freeway speeds did NOT drop the oil temps either. It also started pinging on roll on. So I richened it up when I got home today and got rid of my leaned areas. I also wrote the offsets again. Now the bike pops and backfires upon decel or when closing the throttle to shift. I checked for exhaust leaks and couldn't find any so I engaged the Decel Fuel Cut Off feature. I leaned the bike out to try and get better MPGs, and I did. The good news is that I picked up 4-6 more mpgs. The bad news is that it was so lean, the bike became heat soaked and started to ping. So now I am trying to bring it back closer to the original MAP.

Here is my current MAP.

I hope I am on the right track here.

Mark

This says the 37H has closer valve timing than the RedShift 557
TW26N 35* ABDC
TW37H 38* ABDC <<this is the  493 map
RS 557 42* ABDC

My Tweaked 493 map download

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[rbabos]

Well that's the problem here,......I assumed that the offsets were written automatically as part of the auto-tune. I didn't know it was something I had to do manually. I just clicked on the Map Editing tab and saw in the drop down box a selection "Write Learned Fuel Adjustments (CLP OFFSETS)". I'm guessing I hook up, link on, monitor and click that selection with the bike running. Then for good measure, reinitialize. Did I get that right?

Mark

quote]
Mark: Just hook up and turn iginition switch on, click Read module map and settings. This auto links. Then do the write offsets to module. Click the link botton to turn it red to unlink. When you close smartlink it will ask you if you want to save changes. Click yes. If you don't save it there will be no changes made to the existing map and it will run as it did before on stored module offsets. On the next few rides it will create new offsets stored in the module. Write these again at a later date as well. No initialize is needed for any map editing, only new map loads and any power interupts to the module like changing battery. Hint. If you open the Tmax Control Center from the tool bar , Auto Map does the same thing as Write Offsets to Module. Viewing the info in the window as for how many offsets give you an idea as to whether this map has any hope for being the correct one as well. Don't run the auto iac function if your bike idles fine as it is. Only use this for after a required initialize on a new map. If you also write the iac offsets to the map, I doubt this step is even needed in the future since it will be written to the map and function correctly from the start if this map is reloaded in the future. A new map, the module needs to relearn these offsets , which is what the auto iac function does.
Ron

[7hogs]

Open the smartlink................ Read the module.......... open the Tmax Control Center and then look at you Idle air control check up.

you may need to run your Auto IAC.

[Paniolo]

Thanks for the MAP suggestion.

Are you running the stock HD Throttle Body on your bike? I ask because I have the Zippers 50mm on mine and MAP 493 lists stock HD TB. The Zippers TB came as part of the Marelli conversion kit on my bike. I'm not sure if the differance will have an affect.

Mark

Interesting MAP. Did you alter the Air/Fuel@TPS settings? 
Here is my current MAP.

This says the 37H has closer valve timing than the RedShift 557
TW26N 35* ABDC
TW37H 38* ABDC <<this is the  493 map
RS 557 42* ABDC

My Tweaked 493 map download

Yes on the AFR's-Yes some Timing.
Save yours as is, Deleat the Learned offsets, Set the speedo # to match your bike if different, Load the 493, initialize and run the Auto Iac. If you don't like it reload yours.
Mine Idles like an old Briggs an Stratton -puuttputtputt- mileage is 38 to 44mpg depending on traffic. No heat issues, No starting issues and pulls away at idle 2 up. NO decel popping. FWIW a little time?

Al
PS: Clean and lube the IAC before you do the Auto IAC

[Paniolo]

Thanks for all the tips, the starting issue has been solved.

Now I need to work on mpgs. The bike averages about 34mpgs at sea level here in SoCal. On the road, in the mountain twistys and at altitude it has gotten over 44, but running the freeways it gets on the average 34mpgs. Last week I tweaked it a bit leaner for the freeway, and while the mpgs improved to 38mpgs, I did not like the side effects. Stuck in slow and go traffic the engine became heat soaked and the oil temps climbed to 300 degrees. When I finally got moving the engine started pinging and the oil temps stayed up, even with an oil cooler. I had to park it and let it cool before the temps dropped. So I'm thinking it was too lean. I returned it to the richer and cooler settings, and the mpgs dropped back to 34. The extra 4mpgs was not worth the side effects.

I don't know what else to say except may that's just the way the bike is. Don't misunderstand me, I like the way it runs, I just wish it got better mpgs.

Mark