Crankshaft Run-out?

[Ratfade]

I'm about to undertake some winter projects on my 2000 TC88 (bored to 96 with gear drive cams). Before I begin, I want to measure crankshaft run-out just to see how things are. Am I safe to assume that in order to get an accurate reading I should remove the cam gears and shorten the pushrods in order to avoid outside interference so the crank will turn freely?
Thanks.

[Billy]

Am I safe to assume that in order to get an accurate reading I should remove the cam gears and shorten the pushrods in order to avoid outside interference so the crank will turn freely?
Thanks.

Yes, and I would measure the runout with the cam plate on, as that's how the gears will "feel" it.

[Ratfade]

I do already have a decent idea; it doesn't sound like anything. If I didn't know I had gear drive, I couldn't tell it from the sound. But before I begin any top end stuff, I wanted to make sure the bottom end was okay. Also, this weather is making me crazy, so I do things I can't explain.

[PoorUB]

I'm about to undertake some winter projects on my 2000 TC88 (bored to 96 with gear drive cams). Before I begin, I want to measure crankshaft run-out just to see how things are. Am I safe to assume that in order to get an accurate reading I should remove the cam gears and shorten the pushrods in order to avoid outside interference so the crank will turn freely?
Thanks.

I checked mine with the cam plate and oil pump removed. I figured this would give me the worst case for crank run out. After all, if the cam plate is in place it supports the outer end of the crankshaft. Wouldn't you runout equal whatever bearing clearance is in the cam support bearing??

[Ratfade]

That's a good question, and your theory makes sense. Hope we get answer. I'd rather just remove the sprocket, but whatever it takes.

[Arrowsmit]

Checking pinion TIR with or w/out the support plate? Hmmm...must be winter.  Maybe we can get this resolved once & for all this year. 

VicW.

[Faast Ed]

Am I safe to assume that in order to get an accurate reading I should remove the cam gears and shorten the pushrods in order to avoid outside interference so the crank will turn freely?
Thanks.

I wouldn't even loosten the pushrods. I'd check it the way it runs with all the interference. (Minus what ever is in the way of the dial indicator).
You can always do a second check with the plate off, zlong as you are swapping the cams anywho.

If the runout is going to be worse with the pushrods adjusted properly, I'd wanna know it.

[FXDBI]

Went right thru my 06 Dyna service manual.....no where does it show or talk about checking crank runout. Checking with just the min parts off to get a dial set up properly and square would give you a idea if it was out. If you found any more than .002 or .003  I think some disassembly would be in order to get a more accurate reading I think the oil pump could affect the reading if it was out more than that. I also think you need a more accurate dial than a 5 buck special.  Gonna use a metric starrett last word on mine  21/2 hundredths=.001 thou. Much more sensitive and accurate,its what i use to set up hydrogen seals on big turbines and anything i need to set up within .001 of a in......Bob

[blk-betty]

Some may remember my "vibration" issue that I thought was related to crankshaft runout.  I toyed with the idea of buying a dial indicator and trying to check it myself but honeslty didn't have enough confindence that any reading I got would be balls on accurate.  Show me how where i can watch in person then I can duplicate but reading about it and seeing static pictures didn't geive me enough reassurance.

That said, I took it to the dealer and after a cursory check they too felt I likley had a runout problem.  The dealer tech removed the outer cam chain gears, removed the rocker covers and took the load off the pushrods but left the camplate in place.  Runout was found to be 0.002".

Until Ratfade made metion of unloading the pushrods, I had not heard/read about that and was surprised the dealer tech did it.  Is that the "correct" way, I don't know but that is what they did.

[Faast Ed]

Rear wheel would have likely spun the motor easier with the pushrods unloaded, but I did okay without unloading them.
I did take the plugs out though.

[PoorUB]

Checking pinion TIR with or w/out the support plate? Hmmm...must be winter.  Maybe we can get this resolved once & for all this year. 

VicW.

Was it resolved at some earlier date? Did I miss the meeting?

[FXDBI]

Pushrods in would just keep it all to one side on the cams and should make no diff on the actual crank readings,but I think the oil pump could deflect some of the run-out if it was bad. I think if you got .002 or more with the pump installed it might be worth removing it to see if it increases. Your in there already so might has well check it out completely.

[Billy]

OK, Ratfade has gears in there already. IF the pinion has runout AND the gears are binding at some point, you will NOT get an accurate reading IF you had a place to mount an indicator with the pinion gear on. SO the pinion gear HAS to come off to measure the runout. Good luck removing the pinion gear with the pushrods in place (watch your fingers). OK, now the pinion gear is off and you can measure the runout with the cam plate on, if it's within specification (.003" MAX is mine, I don't follow the later spec of .012") it will measure the same with the plate off. Now you can remove the camplate and measure it with the plate off if you want and inspect the oil pump while you are there. I've never seen a good oil pump have an effect on the runout of a crank in spec.

[Ratfade]

I thought my comment about shortening the pushrods made sense when I said it, but the more I thought about it, the less sense it made. Seems if the pinion gear is off, , then the crank isn't going to moving the cams anyway, so what's the diff? But then when Billy said that getting the pinion gear off with the pushrods in place was a bit difficult, shortening them beforehand made sense again. Right conclusion; wrong reason.

So I figure that's what I'll do. Since the bike is an earlier TC, I'm looking for run-out of less than .003. Any more and I'll remove the oil pump and check again. If the run-out is still too high, then I'll assume there are "issues" in the crankcase. If that's the case, then maybe I'll put it back together and just get an '09. But then there's the issue of the '09's engine heat... . Yep, it's winter.

[barny7655]

Am i missing some thing , if you releave the push rods , remove the pinion gear  to turn the motor over to get your runout ? what happens to the open valves when the piston rotates? or are the push rods removed? or releaved in a way that they dont push onto the rockers, cheers Barny

[sweenz]

Hi, I have to agree with barny7655.

If you dont relieve the pushrods to the point that no valves are open, there will be "open valves"

When you rotate the Crank to check the runout you will have pistons crashing into valves (Bending Valves)
as the valves wont be moving and will be out of time with crank rotation.

The only way that this wont happen is if these engines are what is called a non interference fit ..
Though I have not come across a motorcyle engine that is non interference fit to date..

I'd remove the pushrods first..It sounds as though you have adjustable pushrods in there..
If you do then it is a piece of cake to remove them & avoid any risk of BENT Valves !!!!

Cheers
Sweenz

[Billy]

I swapped my pinion gear for a different size, never touched the pushrods, not a issue what so ever 

05, The cam didn't spin from open valves' springs pushing back on the lifters against the cam lobes when you pulled the pinion gear off?

I may be wrong and it can be different for different cams but I don't believe anywhere in 720 degrees of crankshaft rotation are all 4 valve lifters completely on the base circle of their respected lobes.

[Billy]

.......and yes, I agree with barney and sweenz, don't roll the motor over with valves open and cam disconnected from crank. 

[Ratfade]

Okay; removing the pushrods (or shortening them) seems recommended before rotating the crank. That makes sense. But speaking purely hypothetically, if an open valve were hit by a piston wit the pinion gear removed, wouldn't that valve turn the cam before it would bend? Purely hypothetically.

[Billy]

I'm fairly sure the valve would bend, it don't take a whole lot, I wouldn't want to find out the hard way. Also, you could side load a guide and crack or break it as well.

[wayzalot]

Thougt this would be helpful.  For shadetree guys like me just trying to learn, visual aids are always good. Oh and I should
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_ABdzSrge0&feature=related

[Ratfade]

Thanks, Wayz, that was a great little video.

[Faast Ed]

.......and yes, I agree with barney and sweenz, don't roll the motor over with valves open and cam disconnected from crank. 

In my case, I made sure the lifters were "off" the high point of all the cam lobes, before removing the gears.  No bent valves here.
I do see why guys are unloading the pushrods, now that this point was brought up.

[Faast Ed]

I may be wrong and it can be different for different cams but I don't believe anywhere in 720 degrees of crankshaft rotation are all 4 valve lifters completely on the base circle of their respected lobes.

I don't believe they have to be entirely on the base circle to avoid hitting a piston with your valve. You just don't want the valves to be wide open.

[Billy]

I swapped my pinion gear for a different size, never touched the pushrods, not a issue what so ever 

05, The cam didn't spin from open valves' springs pushing back on the lifters against the cam lobes when you pulled the pinion gear off?

I may be wrong and it can be different for different cams but I don't believe anywhere in 720 degrees of crankshaft rotation are all 4 valve lifters completely on the base circle of their respected lobes.

Nope changed out the pinion gear, like I said no problem. If it makes ya feel warm & fuzzy by all means unload the pushrods...not like it's that big of a deal to do

You're either lucky or good. I pulled a pinion gear off once and as soon as the gear came off the cam gear snapped to it's "happy" position instantaneously! I'm lucky my fingers were not in a pinch point. I did manage to change the gear without unloading the pushrods but I haven't and will not do it again that way.

[dale3dale8]

I'am completely lost here. If the pushrods are out wouldn't all the valves be closed???

[Billy]

I may be wrong and it can be different for different cams but I don't believe anywhere in 720 degrees of crankshaft rotation are all 4 valve lifters completely on the base circle of their respected lobes.

I don't believe they have to be entirely on the base circle to avoid hitting a piston with your valve. You just don't want the valves to be wide open.

No they don't have to be completely on the base circle BUT how do you know how far they are opened??? How do you know for SURE the valves are safe???

You guys can play Russian Roulette all you want but after you fruk up once and have to buy valves and guides, you will have learned the hard way.

[Billy]

I'am completely lost here. If the pushrods are out wouldn't all the valves be closed???

Yes.

[Jeepster]

I have a Tech Tip from Harley on how to check crank runout. It's too large to post. If any one is interested PM me and I'll send it.

[KingofCubes]

I'm about to undertake some winter projects on my 2000 TC88 (bored to 96 with gear drive cams). Before I begin, I want to measure crankshaft runout just to see how things are. Am I safe to assume that in order to get an accurate reading I should remove the cam gears and shorten the pushrods in order to avoid outside interference so the crank will turn freely?
Thanks.

If it were mine I would pull the cam plate clear off, inspect the oil pump, the pinion bushing to shaft fit, and measure the runout both ways. I have seen new cam plates with bushing clearances as much as .0025" which I believe is unacceptable.

[Sonny S.]

I do already have a decent idea; it doesn't sound like anything. If I didn't know I had gear drive, I couldn't tell it from the sound. But before I begin any top end stuff, I wanted to make sure the bottom end was okay. Also, this weather is making me crazy, so I do things I can't explain.

I'm about to undertake some winter projects on my 2000 TC88 (bored to 96 with gear drive cams). Before I begin, I want to measure crankshaft runout just to see how things are. Am I safe to assume that in order to get an accurate reading I should remove the cam gears and shorten the pushrods in order to avoid outside interference so the crank will turn freely?
Thanks.

If it were mine I would pull the cam plate clear off, inspect the oil pump, the pinion bushing to shaft fit, and measure the runout both ways. I have seen new cam plates with bushing clearances as much as .0025" which I believe is unacceptable.

If it were mine I would ...leave it alone ! 
With a gear drive, if you had excess runout or even if the backlash was improperly set.. you'd know it

[Faast Ed]

No they don't have to be completely on the base circle BUT how do you know how far they are opened??? How do you know for SURE the valves are safe???

You guys can play Russian Roulette all you want but after you fruk up once and have to buy valves and guides, you will have learned the hard way.

Being off the lobe gives you a pretty good idea, considering the valve has do be darn near on the peak to break the plane and get near the valve relief in your piston.
Also, I prefer running stock pushrods, or perfect fit (where applicable) rather than adjustables. I would have to pull my rockers to check run-out if I wanted to unload the pushrods.
That would discourage one from even checking runout.

Being well off the peak is a fairly safe bet, in my opinion.

[Jeffd]

If it were mine I would ...leave it alone ! 
With a gear drive, if you had excess runout or even if the backlash was improperly set.. you'd know it
[/quote]

[barny7655]

I will stress this site has some good information , but feel in this topic there is to much miss informed info , i am a motor mechanic, GMH, and will stress that no way will a harley motor turn over several revs to do run out with push rods intact with the pinion or cam sprocket removed with out colliding with open valves,held open by the cam shafts ,tell me if there is a stage where all valves are closed in the cam timming on both clyinders with push rods installed?or that a harley TC is free spinning?the push rods will have to be removed , or releaved so there is no contact with the top of the lobes on both pots,this will insure all valves are shut, please seek your  mechanic on this issue,i would hate to see this causing major mechanical damage to motor, and a disgrunted wife,and a blame to members on this site, cheers Barny

[FXDBI]

 Thanks Jeepster for the Tech-Tip,ex cellant PDF with video. Shows how to to both right and left side crank runouts. They show to do the runout check with the cam plate removed totally,and run the dial on the shaft where it goes thru the cam plate. Left side they remove the compensator and do it off the splines. Very well explained, and the video shows it exactally. Maybe we could get it posted in the tech tips here.....Bob

[Jeepster]

It would be great to put in the Tech Tips Section but how is that done? The file is 8MB

[Faast Ed]

Barney,
I am one of those "misinformed" who has done it at least a 1/2 dozen times with no ill effects.  The valve don't have to be "all the way" closed, to keep from hitting your piston.
I just make sure I am off the peaks of all 4 lobes.

[barny7655]

Faast Ed your been lucky in knowing what your doing, in general terms you may be running mild motors ect,pistons have a bearing on the piston the valve clearance ,also as to the lift of the cams, you know what you have been doing to not cause this problem in your motor, not as a general rule to all others ,there are alot of short cuts in the motor industry ,but to share some of them on here i would not unless the motor was completely standard,which not two HDs are the same,the speed at which the motor would turn from the rear wheel being turned even slowly can cause a bent valve at the angle the piston hits the open valve,no offence to you Faast Ed,its the others i worry about as a general  rule to protect, our most pride and joy , our HD , cheers Barny

[Faast Ed]

You have a very good point Barney. It's true that mine is a mild build with flat tops and the same might not apply in other circumstances.

Cheers to you for protecting others from getting into a bind.  I learned from this string as well!

(bTW:  No offense taken)

[Faast Ed]

I think a very important thing that a newbie can miss, is getting all four lifters off the peak of the lobes. This can be a bit tricky and it's hard to see all the lobes without putting good effort into it.  There is another member of this board that we did the same method while checking his runout, maybe he'll chime in.

Either way, I see Barney's point and he means well.  Historically, he's not been one to bust our chops just to embarrass us.
Besides, there are likely motor combo's out there that could get tricky using our method.

This is not a war of ego's.  We all have our methods that we feel safest with.

[WVULTRA]

Since the original post is upgrading to GD Cams, I'm wondering why one would want to check the crank run-out with the valve train intact.  Is there any load placed on the crankshaft gear while driving the rear cam sprocket to actually increase the crank's runout?

If not, then IMO removing/cutting the pushrods would be much more efficient than attempting to line up the cams to prevent interaction before pulling the CS gear.

For my own curiosity, I'll be cutting the pushrods then checking the r-o with the cam plate installed then with it/cams removed.  I'm thinking any difference will be evident during inspection of the cam plate bushing and oil pump.

Just some thoughts; and please correct me if I'm way off base.

[Faast Ed]

Strictly speaking of my own situation, I avoid adjustable pushrods when possible, so checking the runout would become a much bigger project having to remove the rockers (fuel tank and all) simply to check my runout. If I am good to go with the cam plate on, I don't see a need to go any further. However, if I am swapping cams anyway, then I'd do a second check with the plate off.

Not that this answers your GD related question. I hope someone jumps in on that.

[longshooter]

Barny .....      

Fasted... Valve reliefs are not meant to provide clearance at or near the highest lobe lift. They are there to provide clearance with the piston at or near TDC and you have a valve chasing the piston or the piston chasing a valve. Most TDC lift measurements of these cams is quite small compared
to total lift. It's a dangerous game not to pull or shorten pushrods with the valvetrain disconnected and rolling the engine over.

It is undoubtedly much more work with stock or perfect fit pushrods and that is the main reason I use adjustables in my builds.

Not looking for a pissing contest here,just would hate to see damage done that could have been prevented.

longshooter

[Ratfade]

Okay; I asked the original question, and I really didn't expect the thread to run this long; but I must say I've learned quite a bit from it. Just for the record, I already have gear drive cams, and I just wanted to check the run out to see how things are given that I have over 80,000 miles on the bike. I expect to find very little run out (<.003) since the bike's an early model TC. Also, since the pushrods are adjustable, it's easy enough to go ahead and remove them, so that's what I've decided to do.
I'll probably do this later in the week or on the weekend, and I'll report the results just to bring this thread to a happy conclusion.

[barny7655]

Ratfade, your thread has been a good one in teaching us  about a topic that alot of us will do in the future ,let us know how it works out and post the runout specs and the time it took you from start to finish , that will give us all a guide as to time,and how you did it from scratch ,as some of us might print the page as a reference,some simple posts can lead to good factual information that will be past on to others, cheers Barny

[Faast Ed]

All please excuse my ignorance

I'll excuse you, if you excuse me,.....    LOL

[Bakon]

Anyone got a map because I got lost.

[Billy]

^