LIFTER TICK MADNESS

[crazy joe]

LOL : )  troll? You think I spent 250.00 on parts so I could  bull sh-t people
on what I did to fix the noise... I don't think so. I'm just saying this is what
I did to my bike to fix the noise. Have probably put over 1500 mi on it so far
in 95* heat and still quiet, what do you mean by "Please troll somewhere else." : )

[Don D]

Joe
Congrats. Assuming the mechanical aspect of the motor is correct, which in your case it was not, the air in the oil is a viable problem. But all the mechanical aspects need to be right as well.

[wurk_truk]

Don

Do YOU thinks it's the heads or anything similar with my bike? 

With the VR1 when hot, I can pull the oil filled plug and watch the air bubbles work up through the oil to escape.  It actually foams like coca cola for a few seconds.  Keeps decent pressure during all of this 10-15 idle and 35 running.

I wonder if it's the oil filter.  Its on the second pump and plate.

Maybe the air gets into the system BEFORE the pump.  The only thing I have never looked at is dropping the pan.  Last month... when trying to address this again... I looked into the lifter feed holes (from camplate) and didn't see any obvious flashing, etc.

I would tend to think that if I am sucking in air from pan or tranny...  I would at least see a wet spot from oil.  Dry as a bone.  Was dry when the engine was pulled, too, as far as that area.

[Admiral Akbar]

LOL : )  troll? You think I spent 250.00 on parts so I could  bull sh-t people

If you did you got away cheap....    I spent more...

Yes! They changed lifter styles & cams which never showed up in the parts book. When I took the quiet 84 & 85s out & put them in noisy 87, 91 & 94, they still stayed noisy. Put noisy parts in quiet 85, & 85 was still quiet.

Sounds like a conspiracy.    When did HD change to top breathers?? That might have helped with aeration..

1. Taking an Evo, the oil leaves the pump & starts on its' journey to the lifter blocks via the crank case.
2. The rear block gets fed first & is quiet.
3. The front lifter block gets fed 2nd.
4. The intake in the front is quiet whilst the exhaust is noisy.
This is basically the same procedure as the Twinky.

Sorry but it's not..

Twinky
1. Oil enters pump..
2. Oil goes through filter.
3. Oil goes back to cam plate..
4. Oil goes straight up between cams in the plate.
5. Oil Ts at the top to the crankcase and flows evenly to both exhaust lifters first.

So unless going to the rear of the bike causes less foaming...

If so, does it come in from the lifter block or does the aeration take place inside the lifter itself before it enters the reservoir? To my way of thinking, when the oil enters the lifter plunger, it goes up through the push rods to feed the rocker arms, & when a certain pressure is reached, be it at the rocker arm or the disk on top of the lifter plunger, oil is forced through the lower valve into the said reservoir, & that's where the foam is causing the problem.

So you are saying that the oil gets into the piston cup, goes through the piddle system to the push rod, get aerated, then makes it back past the piddle system into the lifter?  I have trouble believing this.. 

What can cause aeration? IMO, Oil Turbulence.
1. A metal burr in the feed section causing oil turbulence?
2. A gasket that partially blocks a feed hole thus causing turbulence?
3. An off set feed hole causing turbulence?
4. A lot of 'mechanical action' in the feed section causing turbulence?

All this query is if it's aeration & nothing more.

I think you are missing the definition of aeration. Aeration needs air..It is nothing more than mixing air with oil (or any other liquid)... I guess you could call a Carb a aerator but it still needs air..  You are more precisely giving possible examples of cavitation..  The truth is that in order for cavitation to occur pressure have to become real low and in a pressurized system this would be almost impossible.. Flow / velocity would have to be real high.. Cavitation in itself creates voids or gases that have very little lifetime.. It not like once they are formed they hang around..

Max

[crazy joe]

Yes I think I lucked out.  Actually it was 244.48 plus gaskets.
But then again I like to bull sh-t people so you never know : )
I also made sure my rocker box's and supports were aligned.

[Kraut]

Sorry guys. You are all absolutely right. How foolish of me to give my opinion. None needed. I've done lots of stupid things in my life & this is just another example of me doing so.

FWIW,
Good Hunting!

[moose]

well when using my rug shampoo machine they said to put mothballs in the reservoir to reduce the foam

just saying


now I have to go moth hunting 

[Don D]

Kraut
Listen to Max. He can be a wise acre at times but really he is presenting logical statements. He took the time to not discredit you but really clarify why there may be some logical explanations to the air we see in the oil. These facts are based on knowledge from personal experience and reading the SM.

Myself I feel I have a good handle on the mechanical aspects of controlling the valvetrain however I am not sure I have a good handle on all of the causes of aeration yet, HD Twin Cam that is. Certainly higher viscosity oil is not a cure all if crankshaft whip is involved. Higher viscosity oil will whip to a froth. For this reason I use Shockproof Light in my transmission but that is just me. When the crankshaft whips up the oil to a froth it becomes difficult to pump. Hydraulic lifters are notorious for leaking down when aeration takes place. When a hydraulic lifter leaks down you will hear a loud chattering sound coming from the engine because the lifter is not doing its job as a lash take-up device

Take a look at the new sporty sport model. MOCO may be testing on that to avoid a full blown water cooled changeover. This is "oil cooled", the heads that is. I will have to study that. I do know the breather holes are tiny on those new sportys ~.090"

[Admiral Akbar]

I still think aeration is a factor.. and is inherent to dry sump systems..  Thinking about it some more. Any irregularities in the flow could help to homogenize the air / oil mix, kind of like the carb that I mentioned.  This might allow more air into the lifter..   Don't know.. What is important to me is that you start with a sounds basis to work from, then venture from there.. And I'm not saying I'm 100% correct either..

Max

[Ridetard]

I tend to agree with you completely Max.  Simple physics, you can compress air but not liquid creating a vapor lock sitution.   Heavier viscosity oil will only make things worse.  Guess the real question is, what and where is the cause of aeration?  One thing comes to mind is the witness marks on the face of the cam bearing plate where the genrotor makes contact.  Bet that could whip up a boat load of foam.  As would excessive round out OR poorly aligned oil pump.   

[Ridetard]

Found this interesting
"The TC-88 and TC-88B engines have a small, die cast, crank-speed gerotor style oil pump that utilizes a spring washer to preload the pump gears against the cam support plate and pump housing. The side loading from the spring washer can cause excessive friction and premature wear.

The TC-88 engine uses a dry-sump lubrication system. To perform properly, the dry sump system requires a properly sized, BALANCED SYSTEM including a scavenge pump that is capable of removing all residual oil from the crankcase at all engine speeds and conditions. Failure of the scavenge pump to perform to these requirements causes “WET SUMPING.” Instead of returning to the oil tank, the oil builds up in the crankcase and cam chest causing excessive friction/power loss and oil aeration. This can result in oil being forced out the breather, air cleaner contamination, oil leaks, loss of oil supply, lifter clatter,[/b] component wear and potential engine failure.

TC-88 engines have piston cooling jets that are designed to squirt oil on the under side of the pistons. These jets have a check valve that opens at approximately 25-28 PSI oil pressure. Without adequate pressure pump volume this pressure regulated oil flow to the jets can short circuit critical oil flow from the lifters and top end.

Twin Cam valve springs need oil for cooling. Inadequate oil flow can cause excessive valve spring temperature causing loss of spring tension resulting in noisy valve train separation and potential engine failure. Inadequate oil supply to the rocker boxes can cause excessive rocker arm bushing wear and component failure.

The Twin Cam crankshaft has machined “paddles” on the periphery of the left flywheel to provide a trigger for the crank position sensor (CPS). These paddles can whip up unscavenged oil in the crankcase, turning the oil into aerated frothing “peanut butter” that pushes its way up into the rocker boxes-out the breather, into the air cleaner and beyond!"
"

[surf]

These jets have a check valve that opens at approximately 25-28 psi

That sounds kind of high, The SM has it at 12-15 psi.

AMS has a theory that the cam plate oil passages to crankase oil passages allow air to enter. They offer a service of recessing an o-ring into the cam plate at each passage.

[Don D]

Not a slam on them or you but I say no dice.
We have done that for years and no improvement noted.

[surf]

That's good to know. Explains why it's not widely heard of. Me, I just ride em. I figure if you sat on top of your car motor you wouldn't like the sounds it makes either.

[Topend]

CJ, did you replace everything with stock parts? If not what parts did you install?

: )  Replaced  both Rocker assembles...
Supports, shafts and rockers and aligned everything
That seems to have done the trick. I drove it around
the block and its alot quieter but will need the get it on
the highway for the real test. There was wear on the shaft
not a lot but enough to feel with the finger I will mic the
shafts and the bushings later to see what the wear really is.
I did check the alignment of the rocker boxes and supports....
they were off but was not going in there twice and already had
bought the rocker assemblies plus I had the wear on the shafts.

I agree with Deweysheads... I feel I'm on the right track though
because even when cold I could here that ticky tick : )

[Ridetard]

Not a slam on them or you but I say no dice.
We have done that for years and no improvement noted.

Deweyhead dude,

One again a thread is evolving into a manhood measuring contest.
You have a lot of opposing opinion, and yet there is a lot of great input regarding the subject (you included).  Seeing how this is a common problem and a lot of folks experience it , tell me, just what is the cause and solution.?!?  Due to the nature of the problem, there has to be a common cause and cure.  Maybe crazyjoe is dead bang on..his problem is solved.  It could be just that Simple.

All ears.

[crazy joe]

Topend97  This is what I replaced/did  Replaced Rocker Supports, Rocker Shafts and
Rocker Arms. Aligned Rocker Housing and Supports. I checked the end play
on new assembly's before installing and after... clearance increased when installed
but did not shim. All parts replaced are stock including push tubes. Cams and lifter
were replaced last year with 26N's using the Herko update kit, (Herko's Da Man)
The noise was there before cams were replaced and did not change. I disassemble
one of the old rocker assembly's and found wear on the shaft (need to check the rest)
Work was done on July 3rd of this year and so far all is good, I would say I have put
about 1500 miles on it. I have had this noise since new... maybe I have had a
alignment issue since  new?
Did not align the rocker housing the first time because I never took it off
did align everthing this time.

Thanks glens  : )

[glens]

You've got "aromas".  What you're looking for is "since".

[lupe]

quick thought for now, but only now. I am of the same mind as Mr Ritetard, this thread should Not end just yet.  U boys are past the point of the human nature thing, of who,s Swinging the biggest Hammer. now we can really get down and hash this chit over, and maybe figure it all out. 
for now for me.  CAMS, not the sole culprit, but fer sure a part of the equasion.  wish i could pay our very very good cam grinders and our porters to produce a cam that has properties like a clutch.  Provided u are not drag racing.  what,  clutch disengaged FAST, engaged SLOW.  my dream cam.  would be what we affectionally refer to as SQUARE LOBES.  Bam, hello good morning, lifer here now.  OPEN FAST, square lobe hang, but then , CLOSE easy please, yer beatin the CHit outta me seats. i L-- u guys,   lupe

[lupe]

no matter what the outcome or final word is here. I always revert back to this one simple thruth.  Air will Compress ,  OIL will not.  Combine  and / or entrain the same,  LOAD it, ask it to perform Usefull work.  All bets are of. think, baffles, screens, VERTICAL tanks for air rise, and many other things.  i do know that Million $ plus hydro cranes, and the gents who designed them go to GREAT lenghts to control these issue,s.  GReat lengths,  air entrainment to the degree that can effect systems is NOT always apparent to the naked eye.  try magnification, and/or selectives dyes and such.  Whole new world.  etc etc.  for now, i do believe we should think SCREENS.  whoever doe,s and comes up with an easy reach, easy service, etc etc for tc,s.  will do well.  never worry about the rent bear again.  been payin att.  Pingel, the highly respected fuel management folks are doing just this. there first r&d is on de market as we speak.  peace lupe

[Ridetard]

 

[vtwinjim]

FWIW

I just tackled my front exhaust tick noise a few weeks ago before this thread started.  I guess I got lucky and reduced the noise by 85 to 90%.  Last year I put in a TW21 chain cam in my stock 2002 TC88.  New tensioners, cam plate, and oil pump.  Re-installed original pushrods and lifters.  I just polished the old rocker shafts. 45,000 miles on the engine.  The valve train was completely quiet afterwards

After about 3,000 miles, I decided to put in SE 95 flat cast kit, .030 Cometic head gaskets and valve and seats refaced, new seals.  Since I was freshening up the engine, I put in new rocker shafts and new 'B' lifters.  This is when the tick started.  I disassembled rocker assemblies to double check my work.  Nothing found.

I then install tapered adjustable pushrods.  No help.

After narrowing down the noise to the front rocker area, I disassembled.  I found wear marks on rocker support where the rocker arm was rubbing.  Side play was .017 to .018 inches.  I deburred all contact faces of rocker and support.  Flat polished contact areas.  I then took some rough emery cloth and roughened up the rocker shafts.  I also laid some cloth on flat surface and held the rocker faces flat and rotated to make circular marks on both ends.    I thoroughly cleaned everything.  Lubed everything with oil and centered the rocker boxes when torque.

This may sound like shade tree mechanics but I deal with intricate components a lot and sometimes a surface can be too smooth.

Just my experience and it seems sad we have to go through so much trial and error to correct a problem that shouldn't exist.

Sorry for the length.

[lupe]

is this thread done, a shame if it is. i said why,
ridetard, never have known what the popcorn thing means, sorry. guess i,m just stupid. i think u are among the best, most realistc bro,s here, i like u all. spec those here on this thread.  ALL of U, including u KRAUT. a man i just met.  please do not make me beg. lets continue.
truk. a special heads up to u. got no idea what u think of me. i know what i think of u. glad yer here, u been low key a wee bit lately. why i say this. a few exps.  in the end. the runout issue is moot. some win, some dont. so be it. u called it in the end and i agree and respect u for it. its bogus, why and how has been covered a zillion times.  i like or enjoy your out of box style of thinking. remember this. i hold that early in the game u called that efi problem with hard start when whatever. in the end truk, what did it turn out to be.  just as u suggested EARLY. my thoughts, my op cuz until banned, i am allowed.  i know u got ba--s. care to rock on on this subject more. i do. nothing wrong with this.  why is it that it is always the LAST lifter in line that always shows its aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaazz. air is a for real possibilty period. only done IF the thread dies. what a shame. all of u are smart as chit. our loss i say, the whole forum would suffer cuz like it or not. agree or not. lifter tick madness is a legit issue. and is making some folks. truly considering, buying WHAT. g-- forbid cuz we cannot figure this mechanical issue out. there is to much solid for real brain power present to just STOP/  F that i say peace.  lupe

[Ridetard]

Is that the end?

[fragrep]

Harley's are noisy. Honda's are not. The noise is normal, get used to it, It's a Harley...