New exhaust pipe issues!

[BVHOG]

Steve, as a business man trying to help customers you leave a whole lot to be desired, rather than try to belittle anyone who questions you(the very people who support your rearend financially) why don't you give some answers on how to run a free flowing exhaust with high overlap cams and still keep the bike in closed loop?

The answer is that these bikes will run better in open loop once tuned correctly and not degrade the tune due to eroneous readings from the factory narrow band 02's, nothing to do with V-tune rather a shortcoming of a system that was never designed to handle the extremes we build these motors to.                                 
Whether you want to admit it or not the Delphi system was modified to meet EPA standards, not to provide us with a better running bike, since this change to closed loop operation we have less performance and more heat, which is the number one reason for any part failure. IMHO, you are simply trying to work around a system that was flawed form the start by EPA mandates.                                                                   Running open loop is a viable alternative when closed loop issues arise, why you can't admit that after working on open loop cals for 4 years with the Delphi system is a mystery. When the 06 Dyna's came out you had cals available for both open and closed loop operation of those as well (yes I do know the 06 dyna system was unique)
These old open loop systems work great, always have and still continue to do so.
Despite what you and a couple of others try to insist the consensus in the industry is that the narrow band system falls short for a performance build. I have inquired about this from some highly respected people in the industry that work for places like S&S, Daytona twin tech and BC Gerolomy and I always received the same answer, not one you would agree with but I guess these guys all just have broken down old chit to work with as well and don't know anything either.
Next on the list of broken down old equipment for my shop: 4gas analyzer..... it's time.

[ViennaHog]

I had my fair share of going in wrong directions with a variety of tuning devices. Once I understood what reversion is and how I can spot it in a VE Tune file I could fix the issue manually with a 4 gas analyzer. Then I ran a VEtune outside the reversion prone areas and set the ECM to closed loop. I did this to avoid changes through the AFV adjustments in the reversion prone areas. For me again it is simple now. Tune the bike with VETune to an optimum, manually set the VE in areas that look suspicious for reversion and set the bike to open loop. Problem solved.
Steve is going overboard in the way how he defends his baby to the point that I question his advice when it comes to fair comparisons. There is no point in belittling people on this board. Over and out on the subject of TTS from my end.

[rbabos]

quote:
SOMEBODY will eventually have to explain to me on HOW to look for reversion and HOW to tune around it, keeping the bike in closed loop.  If it is a 'secret', OK.  PM me with a nice detailed explanation on this.  Reversion for Dummies.

Hey, put me on that list as well. I think this would be the most important piece of information we could all use. What harm can it be to pass this info along? Not like we're all going to rush out and buy Dynos and set up shop.
Ron

[Steve Cole]

Bung length is easy to check. Take a wire and bend the end of it over 90 deg with about 1/8" hanging on the bent part. Remove the sensor from the pipe and put the wire down the hole and hook the inside of the pipe. Mark the wire with a marker at the top of the bung. Take the wire out and use it to lay alongside of the O2 to see what's really going inside. If you can shorten it due to it being long make sure the final surface is flat for a proper seal. This at least gives it a chance to work.

Now testing for position is much harder and would not be done by a home owner. First you must adapt a temperature probe to fit the location where you think the sensor should be. Then with a tuned motor run testing to determine peak EGT's the sensor will see. Once you've done that and determined the spot, you then insert a SPECIAL O2 sensor that the  manufacture makes that reads the O2 as well as temperature real time as you run the motor through it's operating range and monitor the emissions on lab quality equipment. Vary the position until the O2 sensor matches the LAB EQUIPMENT, making sure not to exceed the manufactures specifications.

As far as teaching these so called tuners how it works as I said before I'm done with them, they are only here for one thing and that's already been made very clear in this thread that they already know everything. We have calibrations that work in Closed loop just fine and a good friend of mine rides his bike each and everyday. His bike was the one we used to develop the UF205-002 calibration with to start with and now he's change to an RB Racing 2 into 1 and guess what............ it took all of 2 hours to make the changes for the 2 into 1 pipe and it still runs closed loop getting 50 mpg cruising at 60 - 65 and 43 mpg hotrodding around! Been driving it that way for over 4 months and nothings changing or going wrong.


Truck

I have  only pointed out what I've said to you before. If you have a good running calibration now and want to switch to open loop I spelled it out. If your worried about the difference between 14.68 and 14.0 then you should of tuned to 14.3 range with Vtune first. Then the shift will be reduced. If it's running good in closed loop but is degrading with time where your at now there is no reason to shift the AFR to 14.0. I've offered you help several times in the past but you have yet to take me up on the offer.

[BVHOG]

4 Gas Analyzer.....oh please..... ....you must have talked with Old Bean from Big guys

Steve Cole devotes his time to come on here and help teach people the right way to tune, to understand the EFI system and some of you so called tuners think you know more than him and you guys that disrespect him on these forums are pathetic. (now thats my opinion) 
I for one respect the mans knowledge and laugh at you all with the closed minds.....you know who you are.
The one thing Steve does wrong is come on these forums trying to help you people....you don't deserve it, now go argue with that stop sign down the street.
AGAIN THIS IS MY OPINION
Doc

Well Doc, I don't know where to start with this one, I thought you were a standup guy, guess I was mistaken, for some reason you now feel the need to rip on me, a  part time tuner who is still willing to admit he is learning more with every tune.  You think the 4gas is a joke? I guess if you don't use it than it must be inferior. Not sure how Bean comes into this or if you just have a personal axe to grind with him as well.
I have always respected you and the info you have provided in the past and learned a great deal from it. However, respect is a two way street and you have lost mine. You can respect the man's(Steve Cole) knowledge all you want but he certainly deserves no respect for the way he treats his consumer and I agree we don't deserve what we get from him here.  Much like yourself he is threatened by anything he does not immediately agree with and always comes back trying to discredit the individual, no matter who it is.
I asked a simple question in a previous post, how can a free flowing exhaust and high overlap cams be run in closed loop without sending the ecm unreliable 02 feedback?
Either you guys don't know or it cant be done, which one is it? I will admit that I don't know, can you?

Doc, I am damn dissapointed in you and this whole ordeal, I was warned but thought I knew better, I was wrong.  BTW, turns out the stop sign down the street was right and it was a good idea to stop before entering the intersection, I agreed and went along my way.

[FLTRI]

I had my fair share of going in wrong directions with a variety of tuning devices. Once I understood what reversion is and how I can spot it in a VE Tune file I could fix the issue manually with a 4 gas analyzer. Then I ran a VEtune outside the reversion prone areas and set the ECM to closed loop. I did this to avoid changes through the AFV adjustments in the reversion prone areas. For me again it is simple now. Tune the bike with VETune to an optimum, manually set the VE in areas that look suspicious for reversion and set the bike to open loop. Problem solved.

BINGO!!!! There is the resolve!!! Don't trash v-tune!!! Understand it and its limitations to tune problem (reversion) areas. SIMPLE ENOUGH???

Why are some making it so difficult? Matertune/v-tune works as advertised...provided the pieces on the bike don't tuning issues.....as some do, as most tuners know. Just tune around the issues as normal, then use closed loop for everywhere else.

Sorry if I seem redundant but it seems some are not getting it....yet,
Bob

[Eleft36]

After reading a hundred or so posts and answers on TTS Master tune. 
I'll keep my simple TMax, with the poor 38 to 42 miles per gallon, easy starting, smooth idle, power to spare and no exhaust popping, thank you.

Al

[rbabos]

I had my fair share of going in wrong directions with a variety of tuning devices. Once I understood what reversion is and how I can spot it in a VE Tune file I could fix the issue manually with a 4 gas analyzer. Then I ran a VEtune outside the reversion prone areas and set the ECM to closed loop. I did this to avoid changes through the AFV adjustments in the reversion prone areas. For me again it is simple now. Tune the bike with VETune to an optimum, manually set the VE in areas that look suspicious for reversion and set the bike to open loop. Problem solved.

BINGO!!!! There is the resolve!!! Don't trash v-tune!!! Understand it and its limitations to tune problem (reversion) areas. SIMPLE ENOUGH???

Why are some making it so difficult? Matertune/v-tune works as advertised...provided the pieces on the bike don't tuning issues.....as some do, as most tuners know. Just tune around the issues as normal, then use closed loop for everywhere else.

Sorry if I seem redundant but it seems some are not getting it....yet,
Bob

Bob: I think we get it just fine. It's not a pretty sight.
Ron

[WVULTRA]

BVHOG:

Have to say I read the entire post at CVO Harley about this guy's encounter with Doc, and would recommend you post the link so everyone can read the entire thread and form their own opinions!   

Having had the opportunity to use an older DynoJet 150, I will also say I have the utmost respect for anyone that uses a dyno either for a living or as a hobby.  These dynos are a very complicated piece of equipment and IMO require years of experience to master their capabilities.

I also transitioned from the SERT to the TTS Mastertune System, and have been extremely pleased with the results one can obtain if he/she has the time and determination to utilize what it offers.  I have seen first hand what a simple change of baffles/slip-ons can do to the power curves of a single bike and again have the utmost respect for anyone that understands and uses one to improve the drivability of these bikes we so love.  And I now, from reading all the feedback from Steve, Doc, Herko, and all the other tuners here, understand that the odd results from VTune I experienced was probably reversion or a misplaced O2 sensor.  But I also learned here, on this forum, how to deal with it!

Had the pleasure to hang out with Herko, Steve, and Bob at the Cinci V-Twin show and they were all very cordial and genuinely pleased to answer any questions I had; and freely allowed me to listen in on all the questions/comments from other riders that swarmed their booth.

I can appreciate the passion that Steve exhibits here and in person about the TTS organization; and some may think he's coming off as an arrogant arsehole.  But I try to think how I would be if I were in his shoes; and more than likely would be just as strong-headed and passionate about my livelyhood and the products he's helped to develop.

One thing I can point out is I have never seen anyone from Dyno Jet, TMax, Daytona Sensors, Vance and Hines, Cobra, or any of the other fuel/ecm modifiers come on this forum and offer their time and support as TTS does!

So to Steve, Doc, Bob, Herko and all of the other Tuners that post here I commend you and thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge.

We may never agree on everything that's posted here; but those that thrive on the technical aspects of these motorcycles have the opportunity to read volumes of great information and hopefully gain the knowledge to filter out all the BS!

Just my .02 cents...........

[strokerjlk]

thanks Russell .
you are one of only a handful I would recommend someone to.
the number of tuners seeing v-tune for what it is.... is growing daily.
broken down old dyno tuners, and shiny 250I dynos to factory pro,superflow tuners alike.
I am on vac, so I am just gonna set back and have a few good laughs..beers and. read all the BS spewed out for a while.

[glens]

After reading a hundred or so posts and answers on TTS Master tune. 
I'll keep my simple TMax, with the poor 38 to 42 miles per gallon, easy starting, smooth idle, power to spare and no exhaust popping, thank you.

Yeah, well I'm getting 40 to 45 miles per gallon and everything else you mention with a v-tuned setup.  Neither one of us would be able to do that like we did if our hardware presented problems like what spawned this whole thread.  It's not about which tuning product is better than another.  They'll either both work, or both won't, the same in any given situation.

On another note, for those saying open-loop-only has worked fine for years and will continue to do so, I'd have to suggest that'd best be done nowadays primarily when a consistent source of fuel is to be used.  Or at least tune to the worst fuel you can find, because you'll probably wind up using some some day if you ever leave the county very far.  But wouldn't tuning like that leave more on the table than running closed-loop well, even with "just" stock lambda sensors?

[BVHOG]

BVHOG:

Have to say I read the entire post at CVO Harley about this guy's encounter with Doc, and would recommend you post the link so everyone can read the entire thread and form their own opinions!   
Like I said, I recieved it by PM, I am not part of the CVO forum but I will look for it.

Having had the opportunity to use an older DynoJet 150, I will also say I have the utmost respect for anyone that uses a dyno either for a living or as a hobby.  These dynos are a very complicated piece of equipment and IMO require years of experience to master their capabilities.

I also transitioned from the SERT to the TTS Mastertune System, and have been extremely pleased with the results one can obtain if he/she has the time and determination to utilize what it offers.  I have seen first hand what a simple change of baffles/slip-ons can do to the power curves of a single bike and again have the utmost respect for anyone that understands and uses one to improve the drivability of these bikes we so love.  And I now, from reading all the feedback from Steve, Doc, Herko, and all the other tuners here, understand that the odd results from VTune I experienced was probably reversion or a misplaced O2 sensor.  But I also learned here, on this forum, how to deal with it!

Had the pleasure to hang out with Herko, Steve, and Bob at the Cinci V-Twin show and they were all very cordial and genuinely pleased to answer any questions I had; and freely allowed me to listen in on all the questions/comments from other riders that swarmed their booth.

I can appreciate the passion that Steve exhibits here and in person about the TTS organization; and some may think he's coming off as an arrogant arsehole.  But I try to think how I would be if I were in his shoes; and more than likely would be just as strong-headed and passionate about my livelyhood and the products he's helped to develop.

One thing I can point out is I have never seen anyone from Dyno Jet, TMax, Daytona Sensors, Vance and Hines, Cobra, or any of the other fuel/ecm modifiers come on this forum and offer their time and support as TTS does!

So to Steve, Doc, Bob, Herko and all of the other Tuners that post here I commend you and thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge.

We may never agree on everything that's posted here; but those that thrive on the technical aspects of these motorcycles have the opportunity to read volumes of great information and hopefully gain the knowledge to filter out all the BS!

Just my .02 cents...........

[WVULTRA]

BVHOG:

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=50200.0;all

      

[strokerjlk]

Jim...

See? ALL cheerleaders think of you and Bob as NON tuners.

Get with the program and just admit it now and get it over with.

getting to be less and less cheerleaders...and more and more dumb garage mech/tuners. 
dont fret to much over your pipes. 

[BVHOG]

BVHOG:

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=50200.0;all

      

Had to register to check it out, looks like it's old news so I edited my post, I will say post 35 in that thread says it all.

[FLTRI]

Some have said they think different MFGs purposely do this.  Why?  Maybe it makes the bike run a tad richer and the exhaust guys can claim 'no new tune needed to run our pipes'.  THAT is the ONLY thing that makes sense to me for an exhaust to do this.

As I mentioned earlier, maybe the exhaust mfg's are more concerned with keep the sensors OUT of the exhaust stream thinking it will make more power, than making sure the O2 sensors work properly.

the sensors simply need to be in the stream picking up GOOD data.  Just makes sense?  Right?  WB, NB... makes NO difference... NEEDS to be in the stream.

Without question!

I'm going to try the best right now for the 911 run.

Since you have the open loop mapping working satisfactorly now, why not simply leave the identified problem areas in open loop and run the rest of the map in closed loop? Seems a no brainer since you know exactly where your reversion area is (the area where the VE's go the wrong way)

I just wish some smarter folks would name the pipe MFGs so that maybe I could have a clue.

IMO only a fool would do that. Not interested in lawsuits.

Toughbook aint so tough after all.... got sprayed inside of a car wash

Mind sharing how this occurred?

Rear cylinder, at idle, was ALL OVER THE PLACE on what the ECM was trying to call out.  Injector PW was jumping around like a cat on a hot tin roof too.
So............  my ASSUMPTION (since I am a dick and nobody helps), is that during the v-tune, reversion was taking place and at  idle.... the bike jumps between cells..... those cells were vastly different due to reversion and THAT is why my original 10 run v-tune map has problems.  Didn't matter I had 20k hits on each run... the reversion screwed it up.  Fu$king Bosscat, anyways!

Now you're gettin' it!

I WILL figure it out, no thanks to the 'tuners' here who, in the end, do NOT share something as simple as how to spot reversion. Folks that have NO concept of 'sharing' info on an open forum.  Fu$k ALL of you that act like that.

My mother used to remind me that you get a lot more bees with honey than vinegar. 

Continually insulting the knowledgeable folks who come here to offer their expertise will not help you resolve your problems.

Bob

[FLTRI]

So, no honey for now.  I'm pissed AND pigheaded AND I WILL get it figured out.

That's fine and I appreciate your honesty. Just don't be surprised you get no help from those you badmouth, or otherwise insult.
Just saying,
Bob

[Eleft36]

After reading a hundred or so posts and answers on TTS Master tune. 
I'll keep my simple TMax, with the poor 38 to 42 miles per gallon, easy starting, smooth idle, power to spare and no exhaust popping, thank you.

Yeah, well I'm getting 40 to 45 miles per gallon and everything else you mention with a v-tuned setup.  Neither one of us would be able to do that like we did if our hardware presented problems like what spawned this whole thread.  It's not about which tuning product is better than another.  They'll either both work, or both won't, the same in any given situation.

Are the 'spawned" mods a search for a better ride or better numbers?

What ever makes you happy
I've decided to stay with what makes me happy.
All this dissatisfaction, puzzling results and second guessing convinced me to stay with what I have.

Best of luck to you.

Al

[glens]

I'm sorry.  You really have lost me now.  What is it you're talking about?

Wurk: I recall one time fairly recently where you thought I'd been picking on or otherwise abusing you when it absolutely had not been the case.  Maybe you're just being a bit too sensitive?  (And don't take that wrongly, either; it's not meant in any demeaning way.)

[lonewolf]

After reading a hundred or so posts and answers on TTS Master tune. 
I'll keep my simple TMax, with the poor 38 to 42 miles per gallon, easy starting, smooth idle, power to spare and no exhaust popping, thank you.

Yeah, well I'm getting 40 to 45 miles per gallon and everything else you mention with a v-tuned setup.  Neither one of us would be able to do that like we did if our hardware presented problems like what spawned this whole thread.  It's not about which tuning product is better than another.  They'll either both work, or both won't, the same in any given situation.

Are the 'spawned" mods a search for a better ride or better numbers?

What ever makes you happy
I've decided to stay with what makes me happy.
All this dissatisfaction, puzzling results and second guessing convinced me to stay with what I have.

Best of luck to you.

Al

You have missed the point of this whole thread. With the wrong exhaust the tmax will also be making the wrong adjustments in the same areas.

[rbabos]

This is true Al. Given the same problems with reversion instead of working the ve tables, you'd be working the cyl offsets to make it run right. Now the big one. With tmax you have a choice of open or closed loop only. If you work the offsets to get the tune you will need to stay in open to keep it, or fool the correction that happens so it can't adjust beyond the tuned state. Offset writing may not be an option at some point.  TTS offers an option here. Run closed in all areas that vtuned successfully and any problem areas set to open and edits done to the ve table as needed to tune. This way the open areas won't be effected with the AFV which will try and adjust the tune if left in closed, and all good vtuned areas can adjust for fuel and daily pressure changes. The best of both worlds in this case.
A lot of this bitching and complaining is in an effort to learn this system and gather tuning quirks to be resonably good at giving my bike the best tune I can. Honestly, I've been so pissed at this thing I was ready to heave it to the curb and get another tmax. Once I calmed down and thought things through I realized that getting good with the tmax took a while as well. I'm as pigheaded as truk (his words) so I will keep plugging away gaining knowledge. In the end, I feel I will be all good.
Ron

[Eleft36]

Ron,
Some times I feel commitment is a pinch short of obsession.

I ride every day and cruise on week ends with my bride.
Life moves fast at our age just keeping up with "stuff".
Reading these TTS Master tune threads gives me the feeling of chasing ones tail.
I hope I'm wrong.
You know I wish you success.

Al 

[hrdtail78]

So, no honey for now.  I'm pissed AND pigheaded AND I WILL get it figured out.

That's fine and I appreciate your honesty. Just don't be surprised you get no help from those you badmouth, or otherwise insult.
Just saying,
Bob

Cheerleaders are girls.  It's an insulting name.  I am going to step out of this whole thing.

[glens]

Aw, just preen your feathers and let it all run right off as it comes flying at you.  That's what I do.  I got the idea from a duck.

[FLTRI]

Cheerleaders are girls.  It's an insulting name.  I am going to step out of this whole thing.

I have no idea who the cheerleaders are. Somewhere that name just appeared in the posts of a few. Have no idea what a cheerleader is as applied to this thread.
Insulting who?
Bob