SE Compensator ?

[runamuck]

I just know that when I replaced the stock compensator with the se one, the "bam" sound on start-up went away and so did the chattering sound that I would sometimes hear from the primary when starting out in first gear...bought the part online ..did the work myself...worth the money to me...

[rbabos]

My Deuce is going back together with one of these:

http://www.beltdrives.com/chcomp.html

I think they are only good through the 2006 models, but I am not sure as it fits on a new S&S "B" wheel set that is in my Deuce now. 

It uses a taper and teflon ring, no springs.  I'll let everyone know how it works out if I ever get back on the road again.  You can search the web to find articles about it.

You will find that the first good hole shot with associtated power shifts will rotate it into a fixed position from that point on. This makes it rigid. I suppose you could unlock it with abusive down shifiting and start over but it really won't work for it's intended purpose. The loads are too high for memory of the teflon to rebound and torque will crush the snot out of it in short order. I honestly haven't used one, but I've seen enough crap in my life time to know when something won't work as advertised in real world usage.
Ron

[rbabos]

A number of things happened in ’07 that seem to coincide with the current crank issues. In ’07 the Cruise Drive was expanded from the Dyna Platform to include all Big Twins. It seems that the new larger motor sprocket would easily max out the capacity of its shock absorbing compensator. This is evident by the sound made when the mechanical stops are reached at maximum travel. Crank failures and starter failures began to occur in increased numbers...

When problems became evident in 2007, one of the first countermeasures was the torque smoothing calibration. This was intended to prevent the engine from pulling down hard at extremely low RPM. The resulting powertrain snatch would hammer the crankshaft off the compensator's mechanical stops resulting in severe torque spikes at the crankpin, ultimately shifting the flywheel assembly.

One of the next countermeasures was the Isolated Drive System introduced on 2008 touring platform machines. The IDS is also offered as a retrofit for 2007 touring machines. This device absorbs shock loads generated from the powertrain, reducing stress at the crankpin.

Another countermeasure that followed in 2008 was the high capacity compensating sprocket - the SE compensator. 

Regarding other internal countermeasures; I've been led to believe from an engineering friend at the MOCO is the interference fit of the crankpin into the flywheel doesn't tolerate being disturbed after it has been assembled. My understanding is that if the joint is moved after assembly, even for truing, the integrity of the joint will be compromised, reducing the torque capacity of the assembly.

Somewhere there is a "calculation" based on production variables that results in the substantial number which is used to specify "acceptable" trueness of this assembly. So far it seems in practice that this number is not representative of a quality component.

My sense is that the increasing flywheel shift issues beginning in ‘07 are the result of drivetrain changes coupled with higher engine output which was not met with adequate torsional dampening of the drivetrain.

My take on the crankshaft issues that began in 2007 are:
The crankpin was moved further from the crankshaft center, increasing the stroke and the mechanical leverage of the flywheel’s inertia over the crankpin. This reduces the crankshaft’s capacity to resist high torsional load spikes.
The longer stroke results in increased mechanical leverage resulting in higher torsional loads throughout the powertrain.
The overall gear ratio changed substantially with the advent of the Cruise Drive to a numerically lower ratio. This change resulted in a substantial increase in load throughout the powertrain.

You have a scenario whereby the engine has increased capacity to produce high torsional loads; the crankshaft has reduced capacity to handle these loads and the drivetrain and chassis have less capacity to absorb and dampen these torsional load spikes. The engine makes more, and the rest of the powertrain and chassis absorb and dampen less

I haven’t seen anything in the aftermarket that provides increased torsional load handling capabilities for high output H-D drivetrains. It only makes sense that these loads will increase with higher engine output. It is also apparent that relying on the rider’s technique to manage the load will not always return a positive result.


Of course, this is just unsubstantiated conversation and conclusion on my part... and input from others more knowledgeable than me on the subject.... 

I see someone has done their homework here. Lot's of good factual info in your post.
Ron

[rbabos]

Maybe if you like to power shift?
Max

Well, who doesn't? 
You have a 131 just to impress? Well, at 3500rpm, in each gear, not impressed.

Not sure where this came from... I do run it to the redline.. Need to be pointed in a safe direction though.. 

one of the first countermeasures was the torque smoothing calibration.

How did they do this on the 07s? Retard spark?

Ron is pretty much right on cept I think that the smaller od diameter Belleville spring is the stiffer one.. Assuming the thicknesses are the same. 

One thing nice about these springs is that they do coil bind well (go flat).  Now as Scooter wrote, the 08 and later got the pulley damper. So what happens then the front damper bottoms out? The rear pulley damper does its thing.. Maybe that makes the stock compensator OK?  One thing I've noticed is that you don't feel the cylinder firing like you do with an earlier TC motor. Power delivery is much smoother even if it is bottoming out during a rollon..

Max
[/quote]
Max: Most jap bikes only run the iso drive sprocket and no engine comp so this somewhat makes the lame stock comp somewhat usable if the ids is used. I've ridden the 113 Yamaha Raider and it is quite a bit more pulsey than my fxstc with the 113. However with the SE and the ids, there is good cushioning in the drive train that's hard to beat.
My 07 fxstc had terrible 5th gear clatter and no ids was available which was the fix for this noise. I did modify the spring pack on the stocker and go it to the point that the clatter was almost none existant if the revs were kept up. Then the SE came out and saw the potential for it to eliminat the resonance in the drive train due to different spring rates and longer area of progressive dampening. First ride with it and still being a 96" I headed out to find the clatter zone of 55 mph in fifth. It was completely gone. Even lug testing it showed no clatter at speeds and rpms no normal person should run at. I seriously was ready to dump this bike for a metric if I couldn't remove that noise. Even with the 113 and it's more aggressive pulses the drive train is quiet.  As for the springs, the first one next to the cam is the thinnest, similar to the stock comp and it's the one that sets the preload on the comp when the bolt is snugged up. It compresses a nominal .090  and what's left before flattening handles the light loads like launch or coasting loads. Any hint of accel the next set start flexing. I'd have to look again at the thicknesses of the inboard 4 but I seem to remember them as the same thickness. That would mean the larger dia of the 2 next to the rotor would be the next to see the load and finally the smaller od middle 2 as the stiffest. This part was acutally well thought out.
Remember in the stocker there are 4 identical springs set in series. The total pressure is equal to what one disc will provide only. The other 3 only provide the length of stroke that the cam needs for gear rotation. The stock comp runs the cam tips into the spocket ramp and wears fast. Once the .090 preload is worn off from the cam tips it will rattle on the sprocket bore. The SE uses the large area of the cam bottom instead and is way more stable to retain preload.
Ron

[choseneasy]

To add to Scooter's comments, the wider back tire (IMO) does not help with shock loads either--both on acceleration and stopping.

[bennenrkc]

I hate to kill the current discussion (and hope it doesnt) but for us reading and not having the knowledge to add the discussion when is the:
SE Compensator Necessary?

A Good Idea?

and what should the average rider be looking for to see if the stock system is failing?

Thanks all, I went and talked to the dealer about there experience with it and they think I am crazy for even knowing what it is, especially since they don't, had to show the service Manager and tech the SE edition in the Catalog.

[Admiral Akbar]

Good stuff Ron.. Some things are worth discussion..

Bennen, no answer to your question..

First, While I've not had a chance to look at the gut of a Yamaha Raider, it wouldn't surprise me if it had an internal compensator also..  Most Jap bikes I've worked on had built into the clutch..

You are right that Belleville springs can be pretty much a constant rate. Pressure = constant Where a typical straight wound coil spring could be  pressure = constant X distance compressed..

Time for some pics,,,

Stock Comp



SE Comp



The stock comp picture does not show spring stack but we can assume it is 4 pair of Belleville with semi constant pressure.

If you look at the design, the SE comp does have different Belleville springs, each most probably provides close to a constant pressure until flat where the stock comp only has constant pressure..

Both have one thing missing from your discussion that are worth mentioning, cam ramps.  In both cases the cam slopes are not a constant slope.. The slope of the cam dictates the amount of movement of cam. Less slope, less movement, more slope more movement.. This translates to compression of the Belleville springs at different rates, which translate back to force applied to the sprocket.. Less slope more movement of the sprocket, more slope more pressure applied to the sprocket..

Looking at the the pics.. The SE sprocket does have have more of a changing ramp.. Which means it's more progressive in how it reacts to movement (absorption) to driving (force) on the drivetrain. Definitely should be able to handle hard launches..

I'm not sure I buy the better wear thing.. The stock comp has 6 contact points where the SE only has 3 under light load. As load increases the 3 pairs of point merge and drop to 3 and the cam faces are wider / flatter.

So is the SE comp necessary for all bikes?

Will it stop a crank from twisting?

Will it last longer than stock?

I've not sure there are definite answers to any one of these.. There really need to be a large population of both types out there and the results well documented.

Am I going to run out and buy an SE compensator?  Probably not.. At least not until I wear out or break the stock unit.. For me the stock unit is working fine.

BTW I think Scooters note on how the cranks go together do bring up an important point.. Depending on how the cranks go together, some may fail.. But then many may not.. It is sad the occurrence is no longer down in the noise anymore..

Max

[sportygordy]

does a belt drive eliminate the compesator?

[FSG]

The stock comp has 6 contact points where the SE only has 3 under light load. ....

Max, I see them both having 6 contact points, 3 in each direction and only 3 in contact at any one time.

[Admiral Akbar]

does a belt drive eliminate the compesator?

Sure the heck does.. I think that an early HD EVO model had belt primary with from compensator but only lasted a year or 2.. Read this off the internet so you know how that is.. 

The stock comp has 6 contact points where the SE only has 3 under light load. ....

Max, I see them both having 6 contact points, 3 in each direction and only 3 in contact at any one time.

On the stock compensator, there are 3 peaks each on the gear and 3 on the cam.. Each peak can touch a valley to give 6 points at rest. 

On the SE, there is a cam with ramp and 3 oval bars that rest in the valleys.. I only ever see 3 points of contact in this system.

Of course, on the stock comp.. One side peaks could then taller than the other making only 3 points... I've only play with the stock comp once and it looked OK as far as wear goes..

I was replacing the tranny pulley on the 07 so I needed to pull it off.. FWIW, Bike still has the original primary tensioner.. I'd bought a new style one but it wasn't needed..

I'll post pics of the BDL comp sprocket later.. Need to resurrect a camera to do it and have some other chores..

Max

[rbabos]

Max: I make the pressure points the same on both, as in 6, but notice the SE comp's cam has two angles on the ramp for two different load conditions, where as the stocker has one constant angle throughout the rotation. Not really obvious unless you go looking for it.
Ron

[autoworker]

Thinking out loud...
It looks to me that on the 07-10 compensator that during most running situations the load is distributed over a larger area based on the  mating ramps being the same shape and angle.

On the SE unit the load is concentrated on a smaller area dictated by the sprocked side drive lugs .

Of course if the other components on the early style compensator crap out sooner than the SE assembly the ramp differences don't matter.

[Bakon]

3k on a 2010 Limited (103 stock) and a bang, or hard thud, at start up and a lighter, but still hard one when dropped into first when cold, is this the compensator noise?

2006 with much more power, no noise. Is this a different part than the 96's have?

[rbabos]

3k on a 2010 Limited (103 stock) and a bang, or hard thud, at start up and a lighter, but still hard one when dropped into first when cold, is this the compensator noise?

2006 with much more power, no noise. Is this a different part than the 96's have?

Noise at startup is the comp. Could be the comp as well if the cold first gear shift is extra clunky with a harsh engagement.
2006 comp is a different animal and has steeper ramps. Steep ramps through less mechanical advantage won't botton the spring pack out as easy as the stock 07-10 units even though the discs washers appear to be the same in each model. At least based on the 05 night train I recently worked on which is likely the same as the 06. In 06 Dyna's ran the 6 speed trans preceding the 07 models. I don't know if they used the newer stock comp or retained the previous one.
Ron

[wurk_truk]

I was out of town for this thread.  I am the member that lost Ron's pics.  I noticed the fretting way back when on the SE comps and swapped in a second one.  The second one fretted in 5k miles and was causing a vibration.  The comp basically locked up from running dry.  I gave up and I re-installed the stock comp.   But now, with 22k on the mini 'low power' build and 17k on the stock comp... it is wore out.

Ron altered his comp, and I was awaiting confirmation his alterations would work.  Seems they do!      .  Thanks so very much Ron!!!

I didn't know if the grooves would work or not , but just like my heads.... groovy seems to be the way to go.

My stock comp is DOA right now, I think.  So, I... the BIG HATER of the SE comps, will try one again.

Ron....  how did the clutch discs look?  I wouldn't have any problem throwing the Redline out and change to formula+, except Barnett told me to NOT run Formula+.  So... if your discs and steels look good...  I will start saving for a new comp....  and possibly change out the Barnetts for another clutch???

Only my own observations here... I run 105/115 and feel right around these power levels is enough to warrant a change over on the comp.  That 17k, on the stock comp, was almost the total miles I rode this year.  I think the spring is wore out from the sounds it is making.  I do NOT power shift nor lug the engine.

[Admiral Akbar]

Max: I make the pressure points the same on both, as in 6,but notice the SE comp's cam has two angles on the ramp for two different load conditions, where as the stocker has one constant angle throughout the rotation. Not really obvious unless you go looking for it.
Ron

Note sure what you are saying.. Maybe I'm not seeing it.. I only count 3.. This pic shows the end of cam and they are not touching anything..



FSG

Pics of the BDL..



How far the gear can travel begore it buts up against one flat.



How far it ca travel before it buts up against the hard plastic washer..




Max

[Admiral Akbar]

Max: I make the pressure points the same on both, as in 6,but notice the SE comp's cam has two angles on the ramp for two different load conditions, where as the stocker has one constant angle throughout the rotation. Not really obvious unless you go looking for it.
Ron

Note sure what you are saying.. Maybe I'm not seeing it.. I only count 3.. This pic shows the end of cam and they are not touching anything..



FSG

Pics of the BDL..



How far the gear can travel begore it buts up against one flat.



How far it ca travel before it buts up against the hard plastic washer..




Max

[ThumperDeuce]

Like I said before, Otto just got my engine back together and used the BDL compensator and a S&S wheel set.  Unfortunately it just snowed so I don't know if I am going to do any riding until the spring.  It will get some dyno time soon so maybe we can tell something about how it will perform.  I'll let you know how it turns out.

[rbabos]

I was out of town for this thread.  I am the member that lost Ron's pics.  I noticed the fretting way back when on the SE comps and swapped in a second one.  The second one fretted in 5k miles and was causing a vibration.  The comp basically locked up from running dry.  I gave up and I re-installed the stock comp.   But now, with 22k on the mini 'low power' build and 17k on the stock comp... it is wore out.

Ron altered his comp, and I was awaiting confirmation his alterations would work.  Seems they do!      .  Thanks so very much Ron!!!

I didn't know if the grooves would work or not , but just like my heads.... groovy seems to be the way to go.

My stock comp is DOA right now, I think.  So, I... the BIG HATER of the SE comps, will try one again.

Ron....  how did the clutch discs look?  I wouldn't have any problem throwing the Redline out and change to formula+, except Barnett told me to NOT run Formula+.  So... if your discs and steels look good...  I will start saving for a new comp....  and possibly change out the Barnetts for another clutch???

Only my own observations here... I run 105/115 and feel right around these power levels is enough to warrant a change over on the comp.  That 17k, on the stock comp, was almost the total miles I rode this year.  I think the spring is wore out from the sounds it is making.  I do NOT power shift nor lug the engine.

Truk: They look fine, and the Formla+ is ok for summer months but when it's cold out it can be quite sticky on the plates on the first shift of the day. Pondering trying 10/40 as maybe the best possible overall grade in the primary. Rivera also recommends atf as the oil to use, but that's only to make plate seperation better. I'm sure they don't care how many comps I fk up. Maybe with the grooves atf will work better but it still shows a lack of protection on the wear points of the comp. I can't justify using it after seeing the effects. It seems there will always be some form of compromise with primary lubes to keep all the parts protected and functional.
Is the sound you are hearing a dull clunk in the primary at idle every now and then? If so , it's not the comp but the chain tensioner. If so, I will explain what it is.
Ron

[Don D]

Ron
Could you post photos of the mods you made to improve oiling to the SE unit? TIA

[rbabos]

Ron
Could you post photos of the mods you made to improve oiling to the SE unit? TIA

Back in the spring I took one pic when truk was posting about the destrution of his. He must of thought it was ass whipe at the time since he no longer has it either. When Over the season I cleaned computer house thinking this would not be so popular. Bike is back together again so no luck there. I gave the best description of the grooves and method of putting them in recently in a thread, if that helps. I believe a few are doing the mod now so hopefully at least one took a pick of it.
Ron

[rbabos]

Max: The cam uses 3 accel contacts and 3 decel contacts. That's where I'm getting the 6 from. Stocker is the same.
Ron

[wurk_truk]

Hey.  I looked everywhere for those pix.  I couldn't find any e-mails with them.

But...  I have a pic of what Dhojo1 did on v-twin.  Ron made HIS grooves right at the spokes, so I used the red pen on photoshop to point where Ron's grooves are.



I'm wondering if Dhojo's grooves are a good idea?  If they faced the oil while the comp spun, it would help force feed it a bit.

But...  I will do what Ron tells me to do, because it is now a KNOWN fix that costs NOTHING... MY kind of 'fix' right now.

At first... I REALLY liked the SE comp.  No starter bang or any noise at all.  But once the inner shaft started galling... it DID make noises AND started to cause a vibration.  It was like the inner and outer would make tight contact onto the spokes, and the comp wouldn't contact the spokes solidly.

[strokerjlk]

Damn I guess I need to weld up the groves on the spline now.  been waiting on those pics so I can modify the two I have going on the 120's
thanks John.
so what to do .....B&M trick shift or formula + 

[autoworker]

so what to do .....B&M trick shift or formula + 

50/50 mix.