IAT Relocation Kit

[Steve Cole]

I think his whole problem is using the TTS... he should switch to a SEST and Smart Tune it..and enjoy the ride...


I think he just needs to move the IAT into the fuel tank, That should solve it all! 






( Now that should start something.. ) 

[rbabos]

I think his whole problem is using the TTS... he should switch to a SEST and Smart Tune it..and enjoy the ride...


I think he just needs to move the IAT into the fuel tank, That should solve it all! 






( Now that should start something.. ) 

Once again, very professional , Steve. 
Ron

[Dennis The Menace]

Oh yippee, the show is starting....

[Rider57]

And the OSCAR goes to.......

[HV]

 

[HV]

Chill guys.... just messin with yas... 

[hrdtail78]

I think he needs to let somebody else have a crack at it.

[FBRR]

I just read this post and thought I would chip in!
First the difference between "closed loop" and closed loop learn" from a fuel control standpoint is ONLY the activation of the "learning". Learn is only enabled depending on several calibrations. Those can include engine run time, engine temp. "IAT" temperature, and engine temperature(model based). The reason for not activating CLL every time closed loop in enabled, is precisely because the engine operating condition can cause a bad learned value. ( Engine too hot, engine temp. not "normalized", IAT temperature too high, etc.)

So once everything is within a "normal" opreating range and an engine run time has expired, the "Learn" is enabled!

Secondly, as to the IAT discussion and how that affects fuel, the IAT temperature is not the "single" input to
"charge temperature." There is a calibration that allows the engineers to "weight" the IAT sensor input based on LOAD and speed. I do not know how Harley calibrates that table. But the way "we" did that was to place less perecnt of IAT at low speed and IDLE, while changing the percentage of "CHARGE TEMPERATURE" to more IAT at higher speed and loads. The thought here was at low speeds and loads, the "CHARGE TEMPERATURE" is influenced more by "metal" temperature ( both throttle body and chamber/port temperatures at low flow. As flow increase and higher airflow, the IAT temperature has more inpact to "CHARGE TEMPERATURE."

The point here fuel is based on a calibratable "weighting system" for injested air temperature. That value is "CHARGE TEMPERATURE." So changing the placement of the sensor may have "only slight " impact at idle if Harley took the same approach and ignores( or lessens the input from the  IAT sensor) at low RPMs and IDLE!

One other thought on your low MAP values and poor running. I didn't go back and examine what injectors you are running, or if they are production. ( I assume you have larger injectors!)

Injectors have a linear range ( called DYNAMIC RANGE!) within their DYNAMIC RANGE, they are linear ( or nearly so!!). The absolute "dynamic range" of injectors is almost the same!! That is a critical point to understand! While Max. Flow rates change with SIZE, because the "design" are not really any different, as MAX. Flow increase, you also RAISE the lower limit of that "linear range." ( absolute dynamic ranges are almost the same no matter what the flow rate!!)

As an injector reaches that "low limit" of it's dynamic range ( or linear range) there is a point at very low MAP readings where the injector in NOT LINEAR. It is a little "BUMP" in the injector flow! There is some software to try and address that area, but as every single injector acts slightly different in that area, it is not possible to predict "fuel delivery" based on pulse width at those very low MAP readings. There is a point where as "COMMAND pulse width" decrease, actual FUEL delivered increases. ( remember is is NON-Linear! in those low MAP areas!)
There is a calibration that "sets" that LOW LIMIT pulse width!! So at very low MAP readings, below the calibration value, no matter what the closed loop may "request" the delivered pulse width is constant to avoid that "non-linear" range..

If you have followed all that the OP stated he has "LOW MAP." If that "input" combined with a calibration value intended for "production" injectors dynamic range", it may possible you are rolling up against this calibration limit (that you DO NOT HAVE ACCESS TO CHANGE!)with "LARGE" injectors. Or you may be trying to drive those LARGER injectors below their actual "dynamic range" where they truely go NON-LINEAR and fuel delivery is "variable" when you think it should be "LINEAR."

If that is unclear, I would be happy to elaborate a little more.
Hope that helps!

( P.S. My wife is bitching for the computer, so I didn't spell check this message! )

[rbabos]

I just read this post and thought I would chip in!
First the difference between "closed loop" and closed loop learn" from a fuel control standpoint is ONLY the activation of the "learning". Learn is only enabled depending on several calibrations. Those can include engine run time, engine temp. "IAT" temperature, and engine temperature(model based). The reason for not activating CLL every time closed loop in enabled, is precisely because the engine operating condition can cause a bad learned value. ( Engine too hot, engine temp. not "normalized", IAT temperature too high, etc.)

So once everything is within a "normal" opreating range and an engine run time has expired, the "Learn" is enabled!

Secondly, as to the IAT discussion and how that affects fuel, the IAT temperature is not the "single" input to
"charge temperature." There is a calibration that allows the engineers to "weight" the IAT sensor input based on LOAD and speed. I do not know how Harley calibrates that table. But the way "we" did that was to place less perecnt of IAT at low speed and IDLE, while changing the percentage of "CHARGE TEMPERATURE" to more IAT at higher speed and loads. The thought here was at low speeds and loads, the "CHARGE TEMPERATURE" is influenced more by "metal" temperature ( both throttle body and chamber/port temperatures at low flow. As flow increase and higher airflow, the IAT temperature has more inpact to "CHARGE TEMPERATURE."

The point here fuel is based on a calibratable "weighting system" for injested air temperature. That value is "CHARGE TEMPERATURE." So changing the placement of the sensor may have "only slight " impact at idle if Harley took the same approach and ignores( or lessens the input from the  IAT sensor) at low RPMs and IDLE!

One other thought on your low MAP values and poor running. I didn't go back and examine what injectors you are running, or if they are production. ( I assume you have larger injectors!)

Injectors have a linear range ( called DYNAMIC RANGE!) within their DYNAMIC RANGE, they are linear ( or nearly so!!). The absolute "dynamic range" of injectors is almost the same!! That is a critical point to understand! While Max. Flow rates change with SIZE, because the "design" are not really any different, as MAX. Flow increase, you also RAISE the lower limit of that "linear range." ( absolute dynamic ranges are almost the same no matter what the flow rate!!)

As an injector reaches that "low limit" of it's dynamic range ( or linear range) there is a point at very low MAP readings where the injector in NOT LINEAR. It is a little "BUMP" in the injector flow! There is some software to try and address that area, but as every single injector acts slightly different in that area, it is not possible to predict "fuel delivery" based on pulse width at those very low MAP readings. There is a point where as "COMMAND pulse width" decrease, actual FUEL delivered increases. ( remember is is NON-Linear! in those low MAP areas!)
There is a calibration that "sets" that LOW LIMIT pulse width!! So at very low MAP readings, below the calibration value, no matter what the closed loop may "request" the delivered pulse width is constant to avoid that "non-linear" range..

If you have followed all that the OP stated he has "LOW MAP." If that "input" combined with a calibration value intended for "production" injectors dynamic range", it may possible you are rolling up against this calibration limit (that you DO NOT HAVE ACCESS TO CHANGE!)with "LARGE" injectors. Or you may be trying to drive those LARGER injectors below their actual "dynamic range" where they truely go NON-LINEAR and fuel delivery is "variable" when you think it should be "LINEAR."

If that is unclear, I would be happy to elaborate a little more.
Hope that helps!

( P.S. My wife is bitching for the computer, so I didn't spell check this message! )

I was going to let this thread vanish, but since you brought up some very interesting points I'd say you nailed it on the head. Logging my low kpa areas with the map set in closed loop everywhere showed less fuel at 2250 than at idle. I then upped the ve's to compensate, but this did very little with improvement. Then I threw more fuel at it in the 20 kpa range which helped the most. At this point it was almost perfect in light load areas, so I threw a bit more fuel at it, 12.5 I believe. The running did not improve but it seemed to load up on decels so it was put back to 13.0, or 13.2, I don't remember now. All through this nonsense I detected as long as I stayed away from the city it ran decent, but once heat soaked it ran like crap again.  Since I seemed to have hit a wall with delivering the correct amount of fuel with existing adjustments and keep good running on decels I felt to eliminate the heat soaked iat problem to at least keep what existing fuel I set for it and not have it change. That worked.It's like you said, I have no control over the injectors in this light load area due to the low kpa.
That leaves me with three options, get a different engine, like that's going to happen, or go back to Alpha-N Tmax, which eliminates the vacume issues and should be able to get the correct afrs in the light load areas. Or, be happy with a 99% tune as it is now.
Present injectors are SE 4.89, and have considered the stock ones but with a 113 I'd be causing other issues since the low kpa will still be present plus inducing high rpm issues as well.
Good post, by the way, with some interesting info. So, basically I'm screwed in regards to keeping the injectors linear in low kpa settings with the present calibrations?
Ron

[07SG]

Is it something like this you were looking for?

#309-305 - M.A.T. Sensor Extension Harness
This extension harness will allow relocation of the Manifold Air Temperature sensor to the air cleaner backing plate from behind the throttle plate, where it is susceptible to “heat soaking” from a hot engine. Our ThunderMax air filter backplates are machined to accept the MAT sensor; MAT sensors on 2005 and earlier models can simply be moved from the TB to the backplate; relocation on 2006-up models requires the purchase of the ’95-’05 style MAT sensor (listed). Fits all EFI model Big Twins.

http://www.zippersperformance.com/catalogue/showproduct.asp?cat=583&prod=2182

[rbabos]

I took a different route, but yes that is one option.
Ron

[FLTRI]

I took a different route, but yes that is one option.
Ron

How did you change the readings?
Bob

[rbabos]

I took a different route, but yes that is one option.
Ron

How did you change the readings?
Bob

The readings are what they are. I did this to eliminate stupid lean hot starts after the bikes heat soaks from sitting for a few minutes.  It now starts and runs as it should at idle. Nothing else could be detected in the running other than city driving at low speeds seem to be smoother. Sometimes you just have to break away from the supposedly correct Delphi placement  and claims of the ecm will adjust to heat soak. My results show it won't as evident of the improved running from relocating this sensor. In fact the higher than normal heat soaked iat temp forces a leaner than desired afr during certain operating conditions.
While this won't add up to much on a stock build, it sure plays hell with my build.
Ron

[FLTRI]

Ron,
Glad to hear you are happy with the way your bike runs now.

Ya got a taste how we tuners, who do this for a living, must think sometimes, even outside the box to eliminate ill-running effects of cam timing, exhaust systems, and other not stock-type breathing mods.

Sometimes all it takes is a bit of time and understanding to resolve running issues and other times it seems it is impossible....at least until someone comes with a fresh approach to try.

I learn every day and realize the more I know the more there is to learn and understand.

Bob

[rbabos]

Yup, frustrating and rewarding at the same time. Funny how life is. Didn't know absolute crap about efi. Now between the AlphaN Tmax and the Delphi speed density, I'm half assed competent enought to get a decent running bike with either. Still rewarding even being an amateur half assed tuner. There's a never ending learning curve with this stuff and I'm still trying to get a better handle on things.
Ron

[FLTRI]

...There's a never ending learning curve with this stuff and I'm still trying to get a better handle on things.
Ron

I don't believe I read what you ended up doing? What have you done for your IAT dilemma?
Bob

[rbabos]

...There's a never ending learning curve with this stuff and I'm still trying to get a better handle on things.
Ron

I don't believe I read what you ended up doing? What have you done for your IAT dilemma?
Bob

Don't think I posted it due to all the flack I got over it. I stuck it about 1" back behind the filter element on the SE heavy breather elbow at the bottom.  While I haven't logged anything due to going to a different cal in the spring the afrs seemed way more stable between hot and cold, especially with mid temp engine starts or city traffic and hot engine. For me, it worked out just ducky. Obviously a few more vtune runs are in order to reset the ve's to the different sensor input, but I ran out of good weather.
Ron