IAT Relocation Kit

[rbabos]

SHOW         US         THE         DATA!!!

You should have it.
Ron

[hotroadking]

that is why I suggest he move  to a Power Commander
and have it dyno tuned, the PCV might just solve the problem

It may well not if indeed there's a problem such that the stock ECM is having trouble.  He's already running this area open-loop, and this presently wobbly platform is precisely what the PC-V would be working off of.

Precisely my point....

[BVHOG]

Power Commander cure the problem? Not a snowballs chance.

[hrdtail78]

SHOW         US         THE         DATA!!!

You should have it.
Ron

Can you post the datamaster files here?  I would also like to take a look.

[hotroadking]

Power Commander cure the problem? Not a snowballs chance.

So if another tuner will not cure this, then what will
and why all the fussing about TTS, if a powercommander won't do it...
or even a Zippers...

The source of the problem is mechanical, either by mismatched parts or defect.

My presumption is moving sensors around isn't going to cure it either, if location was a problem then we'd all be having big issues....

[Dennis The Menace]

Ron, this may not help much, but I have some rough running at certain low rpm and heat conditions. Sucks in traffic, but thats how it is.  These arent indy cars that require ultra precise fuel delivery and management.  They are plain vanilla, air cooled twin cylinder motors that can never be made to run perfectly across every RPM range and condition imaginable.  Accept that you have a pretty good tune as it is, and ride it.  IMO.

But, I have read a lot of your posts and I understand you like to try different things and experiment.  Nothing wrong with that at all.  Just remember, that when you experiment you will have more failures than successes.  Its how things work. But, with failures comes knowledge.  I guess that is what drives experimentation in the first place.

In the spirit of experimentation, let us in on it and share the files you have generated, so we can all learn.  Nobody is here to second guess you, or think you are an idiot.  Because, bottom line, if we knew the answer to your problems, they would have already been stated here.  We all just want to help, and having a better idea of what you are seeing would help.  Again, JMO.

Either way, I hope you get it sorted out.  As for my bike, I am happy enough with it and will just ride it, when I have time.  Good luck with yours, brother.

Dennis

[rbabos]

Ron, this may not help much, but I have some rough running at certain low rpm and heat conditions. Sucks in traffic, but thats how it is.  These arent indy cars that require ultra precise fuel delivery and management.  They are plain vanilla, air cooled twin cylinder motors that can never be made to run perfectly across every RPM range and condition imaginable.  Accept that you have a pretty good tune as it is, and ride it.  IMO.

But, I have read a lot of your posts and I understand you like to try different things and experiment.  Nothing wrong with that at all.  Just remember, that when you experiment you will have more failures than successes.  Its how things work. But, with failures comes knowledge.  I guess that is what drives experimentation in the first place.

In the spirit of experimentation, let us in on it and share the files you have generated, so we can all learn.  Nobody is here to second guess you, or think you are an idiot.  Because, bottom line, if we knew the answer to your problems, they would have already been stated here.  We all just want to help, and having a better idea of what you are seeing would help.  Again, JMO.

Either way, I hope you get it sorted out.  As for my bike, I am happy enough with it and will just ride it, when I have time.  Good luck with yours, brother.

Dennis

Dennis: Sometimes people might get the impression my bike barely runs by some of these posts. It actually runs quite good and likely better than a lot of tuned bikes out there. My problem is I can see areas that are not quite right which could improve it even more. Trying to pull enough fuel at 19kpa is my major obstacle for perfection, since the new iat seemed to have fixed my hot start idle. My sure fire fix would be to slap a tmax back on and be done with the problem once and for all since it's tps,rpm based and could care less about vacume. For now I choose to battle with the Delphi and try to come up with a solution to a problem that seems unique to some builds. I think most of us on this forum are experimenters to some degree and hope some of this information exchange is at least entertaining if nothing else.
I've cleaned my files out of my computer with the intent of making new current ones for Steve. At present I only have the log to determine the problem location  and the existing map I'm presently running. The last time I posted something there were complaints about the program I chose had a virus, so I just sent FLTRI the files since he was yelling the loudest . Most likely he will post them once he stops scratching his head, wondering how this thing even runs.
Ron

[Don D]

I appreciate your tenacity
Looking at my logs I am actually at lower map on the road at 2k 2% throttle than at idle.
When I get uncovered with head projects I wil get back to the tuning with the help of a real tuner, not just me. I am also adding a boarzilla with a trap muffler (PhilM copy) and will be sure the o2 sensors are in the exhaust properly.

[rbabos]

I appreciate your tenacity
Looking at my logs I am actually at lower map on the road at 2k 2% throttle than at idle.
When I get uncovered with head projects I wil get back to the tuning with the help of a real tuner, not just me. I am also adding a boarzilla with a trap muffler (PhilM copy) and will be sure the o2 sensors are in the exhaust properly.

Same here. Runs about 29-30 idle and 19kpa at 2k in light load, steady rpms.
Ron

[strokerjlk]

Ron
just to catch up here.
this problem is while your running some areas in closed loop?
running all open loop, does the bike still run fine?

[Don D]

SHOW         US         THE         DATA!!!

Tellya what
I will trade ya for the compare and contrast report of Vtune VS AFR by sampling...
SHOW         US         THE         DATA!!!

[rbabos]

Ron
just to catch up here.
this problem is while your running some areas in closed loop?
running all open loop, does the bike still run fine?

Bike runs fine except in the 1500-2250 areas that run a bit erratic when in light load conditions. This is mainly when heat soaked. No apparent issues with closed loop areas that I can feel or hear as to how it runs. Since the kpa reading is 19, it draws fuel from the 20 kpa and surrounding area of the afr map, which for everybody else on the planet, except for maybe Deweysheads, this is a decel area and all maps are in open loop here. Whether the map was set to closed loop or open, the light load area does not seem to change much regarding it's present tune. I'm suspecting heat was what was changing the tune in this area rather than the afvs when in closed loop. The more I played back and forth between open and closed it became obvious the leaning influence when hot was from another source. That's what spawned the iat thread. It's influence is obvious, especially on a boarderline lean state as in my light load area when hot. When cold or normal operating temps the ill running is not detected. Hit the city, it's pooched. The ve's are rediculously high in my problem area in attempt to give more fuel in this region of operation and have even dropped to 12.5 in the problem areas but it's like it won't respond to correct it. At 12.5 afr on a decel, too much fuel noticed as it seems to load up and then clear. 13.0 or 13.2 or whatever it is now is the best overall so far. Major timing drops in this area has had no effect on clearing up the light load area. It just turns the bike into a dog, with the occaisonal miss still present when hot. Go on a slight down hill grade in these rpms and light load the running is worse and with a very slight hill it goes perfectly smooth. I never expect the down hill to be smooth, but level ground should be at the very least. If all else fails, I can live with it in it's present condition. There is no more driveline jerking to be felt as in the early stages and more just the sound of the occaisional light missing every now and then. It just pisses me off that I can't totally remove it. Now you are up to speed.
Ron

[ORork]

I don't have a dog in this fight, as you all know I run a Mik 45 on my bike and do driveability diagnosis on Nissan EFI cars. I will say my bike has extremely low manifold pressure w/cruising. I've come to the conclusion by extensive testing that it results from extremely easy breathing due to the sizing of the flow components. Case in point; 95" displacement, 2" intake valves, 1.8" intake ports, 1.623" exhaust valves, .600"+ lift, long cam duration and very low exhaust system restriction.

This is a "built" engine. Purpose built for acceleration, similar to the one in question. One cannot expect docile performance off the cam, off the pipe. Basically you can't have your cake and eat it too. Unless you have dual track intakes w/tuning plates, articulating cam timing and now articulating cam lift and dual track articulating exhaust.

IMHO the hot soak issue is more related to liquid condensation effect and less to do with IAT data during the event.

There may not be a problem with this bike, rather a characteristic/effect of high performance modifications on a bygone era, pushrod operated, static controlled component system.

Sounds to me like a good argument for direct injection.

[rbabos]

Agree, there's a lot lacking to get the best of both worlds. Direct injection, variable cam timing would be sweet, but don't see it happening. Tell me more about this condensation effect and how it plays out. You make a valid point about having cake and eat it too. I may have been taken down the garden path with claims of perfectly tuned and smooth running engines here. Maybe they all run like "Potty mouth". I have nothing to compare it to and any dealer builds I've seen are pretty lame around here when the wick is twisted.
Ron

[Dennis The Menace]

Ron, I dont think they all run like "Potty mouth".  But, I do think its possible to put a build together that would would great on the strip, but suck for around town riding.  I am starting to wonder that about my own bike, as I have same problems you have.  However, once I make my mind up to keep the new ProPipe on or not (O2 in stream issue), I will take it to a tuner and let them try to get it smoothed out.  If not, I will try a different setup

But, no MoCo motor will run perfect.  As you stated earlier, you were striving for perfection, but that is an impossibility.  But, you can get it running well if all the parts are carefully chosen for the application design.  I thought I built my motor right for good town and mountan riding, but not sure yet.  Once I get a good tune, I will know.

Dennis

[ORork]

Ron, when you shut down the bike, the aluminum allows the temperature to drop like mad. Then on a restart the inflow of ambient air causes the fuel to bunch up, have dense spots until the temps in the tract become stable. Even if the EFI has start enrichment, it won't work well if there is a leak. What I have found is very, very critical to smooth running is leaks on either side of the head/s. This is not to be overlooked, ever. With your bike running on the stand take your favorite liquid (water or solvent will do), in a spray bottle and direct the spray around the intake where it meets the head/s. Then, spray around the exhaust where it mounts to the head/s. NO LEAK can be tolerated at all, on either intake or exhaust. A leak (shown by the liquid going in) will affect the speed and smoothness of the idle.  Any foreign air influence on the flow will drive the map nuts (at any speed) and the harmonious flow of PROPER A/F ratio. You can tune for days, weeks and months and not get satisfaction if there is any leak. I highly recommend using 2 circle clips under each exhaust pipe flange to ensure the best possibility of a good, tight seal (the exhaust flange should not touch the head). I have fought intake side leaks until I was blue in the face. Even new seals could/would/did leak. So, I grabbed some spray, aviation, Permatex gasket sealer, mounted a nozzle with a straw/tube on the can and sprayed around the inlet flanges while the engine was idling and hit the kill switch after getting a decent amount of sealer applied (it got sucked into the leak). I then let the bike set overnight and the next morning I found my leak troubles were gone. This made a HUGE difference in getting the thing tuned. By all means check yours for a leak. You might be surprised what you find. Whoever makes those intake seals should make them thicker IMHO, so they actually get compressed tight by the flange.

[rbabos]

Yup. I've spent a great amount of time trying different things on this intake leak checking. My favorite tool is propane, but have tried water, wd 40 and brake cleaner several times. Tested both cold and hot and have no indication of a leak. Ran the hose close to the filter once and the engine quit instantly. On restart it behaved as if flooded. That actually surprised me since it was so hard to restart. Anyway during the leak tests the whole casting was checked as well as around all sensors. Nothing.
Same with the exhaust. Could not detect anything, but changed the sealing rings anyway. Did find a bit of soot at the collector and used ultra copper on the reinstal but it made no difference. O2 placement was checked in light of a recent thread regarding sensor function and I gave it the green light. Now here's the kicker that keeps me persisting on trying to make it better. Todays ride was cooler than any previous rides for the last two months . About 65-70 degrees today. The damn thing ran 100% in light loads, even going down hills. That's a first and could have sworn I was riding the stock 96". Other than the outside temp, nothing has been changed. At least for today I did have my cake and ate it too. . Now, we both know what contributed to this, don't we?
Ron

[ORork]

Yep, we sure do. Ambient air temp made a big difference. Now, was it IAT sensor signal or is it just too rich at 80-90 degree ambient air temperature? Good observation. Now you're getting somewhere.

[rbabos]

Yep, we sure do. Ambient air temp made a big difference. Now, was it IAT sensor signal or is it just too rich at 80-90 degree ambient air temperature? Good observation. Now you're getting somewhere.

All I can tell you is in order to get it as good as it is, more fuel had to be thrown at this light load area. The colder weather brings up two possibilties. One is the iat running cooler, or the map sensor is at a different reading giving more fuel. Don't think it's the map sensor since I'm thinking if any effect was noticed it would pull even more vacume with denser air and the condition would be worse. I don't know for sure. The iat function is the most likely sensor to keep it rich in my light load areas that are open loop. I saw no difference in the closed loop areas .Even though most here are starting to think I have chit for brains, I still feel relocating the iat to more ambient air would give a more stable tune between fluctuating temps in my small area of open loop especially if todays run was any indication. Hell, there wasn't even any jerking in the decels, just smooth even firing.
Ron

[ORork]

By all means, move the IAT sensor and log the data. Maybe put it out front on that horizontal bar, high on the front of the frame. Doesn't it make sense that IAT should reflect ambient air temp, not engine induced heat? Only your testing will tell if you're on to something.

[FLTRI]

Doesn't it make sense that IAT should reflect ambient air temp, not engine induced heat?

Actually the ECM should get the actual intake air temperature to use it to modify fueling as intake temperature changes.

Ambient air temperature is not what the engine ingests, so using the IAT to get more fuel into the engine changes the IAT sensor's usefullness as a key input for the system to make it's decisions.

Bob

[rbabos]

Doesn't it make sense that IAT should reflect ambient air temp, not engine induced heat?

Actually the ECM should get the actual intake air temperature to use it to modify fueling as intake temperature changes.

Ambient air temperature is not what the engine ingests, so using the IAT to get more fuel into the engine changes the IAT sensor's usefullness as a key input for the system to make it's decisions.

Bob

I agree to a point but having the sensor heat soak by running in traffic and leaning the mixture is not an ideal situation either. At times it's reading temps that should not apply or are incorrect for the running needs of the engine. One example I've logged is having a 150 head temp on a startup and seeing 150 on the iat. How is that benifit the tune? I can't believe somebody would design this in and call it good or expect a good tune out of it. I understand the calibrations are done with how the iat functions, but that doesn't make it right. To me, it's a compromise situation that sorta works but could be better. In my view of course.
Ron

[FLTRI]

Ron,
Do you not believe the intake air temp was actually 150?
Just trying to understand why you feel you need to lie to the system?
Bob

[rbabos]

Ron,
Do you not believe the intake air temp was actually 150?
Just trying to understand why you feel you need to lie to the system?
Bob

Of course it's 150. That's my point. It's preheated and not constant in temp. This causes the ecm to make incorrect adjustments for a given head temp.Sitting in stop and go traffic on a 90* day having the iat climb to 180+ and lean the afr. Where's the logic here? Wouldn't the tune be more stable in afr if the iat was reading the actual ambient air rather than what the sensor is getting cooked at in traffic. Are you telling me that tuning with the present iat location is not a lie in itself? Wouldn't a bike tuned to a relocated iat be a more accurate tune overall and adjust better to real ambient temps? You have the equipment, why not test it yourself? If I can hear and feel the differences I'm sure you could pull some really interesting data when monitoring the afrs.
Ron

[1FSTRK]

Anybody know of a source for twin cams for this item? Have them for vrods but no search results for tc's.
Ron

The zippers/ thundermax catalog has a kit to do what you want. The thundermax backing plate comes cnc'd with a spot to install the sensor. Seems like someone else thought this was a problem or they wouldn't make a kit to change it.. You can buy the extention harness  and sensor  separately