Ultima 127 Mods.

[Mr. Torque]

Has anyone played with the Ultima 127 engines? They claim 140HP and 145 ft. lbs. are these true or fictitious numbers?.I've read that with a little head work and a cam change they have actually made better than 150 HP. How likely is that? How dependable are these engines?   

[Reddog74usa]

You need to talk to John Sachs. He runs one of those and can get you where you want to be with that Ultima 127. 1st class guy and no B.S.

[1997bagger]

I will second Reddogs recomendation of telling John Sachs of your needs with the Ultima, Jireh is discounting the 140 on ebay but get a couple rear tires throwed in.

[Mr. Torque]

Thanks, How do I get a hold of John Sachs?

[Hillside Motorcycle]

John is in Fla.
BTW, we've seen almost 150 ft/lbs in the 120"s with a Wood 9B, S&S g/Thunderjet/Rhineharts.
Chris, I think I've got John's number on file.
Scott

[speed limit]

Mine has been a work in progress, I had a set of S.T.D. stage 4  oval port heads made for it set up @ 10.5  with S&S oval port manifold 48 mikuni with race back, wood 9f cam. superzilla pipe. makes 150 ft. lbs and 139 h.p.  going to bump up compression to 11.1 and go with a S&S 640 cam.

[1997bagger]

SACHS RACE BIKES
1601 N.W. 99 AVENUE
PLANTATION FL 33322
954-473-2980
dynalee@bellsouth.net

[jsachs1]

Has anyone played with the Ultima 127 engines? They claim 140HP and 145 ft. lbs. are these true or fictitious numbers?.I've read that with a little head work and a cam change they have actually made better than 150 HP. How likely is that? How dependable are these engines?   

Out of the box,a 127 Ultima is in the 120 - low 130 range.You can make real good power,150,and the same in torque.It'll take more than a LITTLE head work.
IMO,they're a good "hot rod" motor.Naturally as the power goes up,so does the pms factor. 
John

[Mr. Torque]

Thanks to all. John your opinion on the S&S 640 with the Ultima 1.73 rockers over the Ultima 127 cam. Bump compression to 10.8 ?

[jsachs1]

I like the Ultima cam.I make good power with it,and NO excessive valve guide wear to boot.
Very close to an S&S 640,with 1.62 rockers
John

[partycrasher]

Are the ultima motors limited to evo style??

[Reddog74usa]

No, They also make a 96 inch Shovelhead

[prodrag1320]

we`ve done alot of the 127`s,mostly out of the box.ive done some headwork & other mods on mine(got 142 rwhp),but i know johns got 150+ out of them

[Nowhereman]

Well it's 2014 and my 127 is still going strong.
I cleaned up the exhaust a little and polished the port after a little grinding.
That's it.
The bottom end is strong, after some kids put dirt into my oil bag at a Red wood run some years ago, I pulled it apart and found no damage.
The oil pump has spooge in it but we got it all cleaned out and she still runs well.
I ran a 48 Mik on her for the last few years but, you needed a pump to keep that float bowl full.
It would run lean at the top.
I prefer my 45 Mik that basically has 48 mik components in it.
Fattest needle and needle jet (clip all the way on top), 190 main 32 idle jet 1 3/4 turns out, main jet extension to keep it in the fuel.
Went to two piece rockers to get it to fit into the FLSTF frame.
A bike that HD should of built years ago.
Runs like a raped ape but, I'd let the OL ride it to the store if she wanted.

[speed limit]

Same here 60,000 miles and still running strong I did a .010 over in 2011 when I bumped the compression up my plan this year is to replace pistons with 4.312 and make it a 131 @ 10.8 I run a 48 mik with 1/4" float bowel spacer I also replaced the boarzilla with cycle shack M pipes

[Nowhereman]

Same here 60,000 miles and still running strong I did a .010 over in 2011 when I bumped the compression up my plan this year is to replace pistons with 4.312 and make it a 131 @ 10.8 I run a 48 mik with 1/4" float bowel spacer I also replaced the boarzilla with cycle shack M pipes

That 1/4 spacer should help a lot.
Mikuni makes a vacuum pump that works nice if you can hide it under your tank.
Just change over to the smaller needle valve if you go that way.
I played with one and boy do you pick up top end power.
Interesting you dropped the Boarzilla as I have heard good things about them.
Not familiar with the M pipes from cycle shack though.
I think when I do the top end I'll do the same.
Can't ever get enough of cubes, it's like a drug.

[007]

Is it OK to buy a 120-124 from Jireh which was test run or have one built buy a shop?

[Nowhereman]

A good shop is a good shop.
If you like the way they build go that route.
Personally, I steer clear of mass production places as they invite too any variables.
Not to say they are at all bad, it's just my way of thinking.
You don't need to pre run a motor if your good at building em.

[Admiral Akbar]

Same here 60,000 miles and still running strong I did a .010 over in 2011 when I bumped the compression up my plan this year is to replace pistons with 4.312 and make it a 131 @ 10.8 I run a 48 mik with 1/4" float bowel spacer I also replaced the boarzilla with cycle shack M pipes

Where did you get the spacer? Vulcan?

Max

[build it]

I might be interested in a couple spacers...

[prodrag1320]

Is it OK to buy a 120-124 from Jireh which was test run or have one built buy a shop?

we like to get them unassembled & build them in house

[Admiral Akbar]

Same here 60,000 miles and still running strong I did a .010 over in 2011 when I bumped the compression up my plan this year is to replace pistons with 4.312 and make it a 131 @ 10.8 I run a 48 mik with 1/4" float bowel spacer I also replaced the boarzilla with cycle shack M pipes

Where did you get the spacer? Vulcan?

Max

Found em..

http://www.mrturbo.com/catalog/106_carbfuel/carb_fuel.html

Second item in the list..

Max

[Nowhereman]

They comment that it is for a 42 mik.
Gotta check to make sure everything is kosher with 45s and 48s.

[build it]

Nice catch

[Nowhereman]

Here's my solution guys.

pn. DF44-211  Mikuni vacuum pump. 14 liters / hour
pn. 786-27001-2.3 smaller float bowl valve.

I also run a deep style drain nut with extender for the main.
It makes no difference if you make the bowl larger, your hamstrung by the delivery amount via gravity feed.
The solution is to force feed the bowl, run the main as deep into the bowl as you can.
The smaller valve is needed to restrict the gas volume being pumped.
You will have a full bowl all the time without it pumping onto the ground at idle.
The pump is small enough to hide under the tank and requires no maintenance.
You definitely will feel the difference on the top end pull.

[Durwood]

The Jr dragster guys have some cool stuff for Mik's, and fuel pumps here's one of many.


http://www.blossomracingengines.com/partslist.php?main=Carburetor%20Parts&page=16

I like the deep bowl ..JMO

Craw's racing, JR Racecars to name a couple more.

[Admiral Akbar]

Here's my solution guys.

pn. DF44-211  Mikuni vacuum pump. 14 liters / hour
pn. 786-27001-2.3 smaller float bowl valve.

I also run a deep style drain nut with extender for the main.
It makes no difference if you make the bowl larger, your hamstrung by the delivery amount via gravity feed.
The solution is to force feed the bowl, run the main as deep into the bowl as you can.
The smaller valve is needed to restrict the gas volume being pumped.
You will have a full bowl all the time without it pumping onto the ground at idle.
The pump is small enough to hide under the tank and requires no maintenance.
You definitely will feel the difference on the top end pull.

There are 2 issues with the bigger miks.. One, they don't have emulsion tubes and two, the float bowl is too small.. Both lead problems due to areation of fuel in the fuel system. An emulsion tube will help to stabilize fuel flow and a deeper bowl will help to control then fuel level.. Remember Minton helped with the design..   Increasing pressure in the fuel system is a bandaid fix.. Ever wonder why the SnS carbs don't have this problem?? 

Max

[build it]

I thought S&S carbs do have that problem? I know Ron Dicky posted about several years back.


*clarity of message

[Nowhereman]

Here's my solution guys.

pn. DF44-211  Mikuni vacuum pump. 14 liters / hour
pn. 786-27001-2.3 smaller float bowl valve.

I also run a deep style drain nut with extender for the main.
It makes no difference if you make the bowl larger, your hamstrung by the delivery amount via gravity feed.
The solution is to force feed the bowl, run the main as deep into the bowl as you can.
The smaller valve is needed to restrict the gas volume being pumped.
You will have a full bowl all the time without it pumping onto the ground at idle.
The pump is small enough to hide under the tank and requires no maintenance.
You definitely will feel the difference on the top end pull.

There are 2 issues with the bigger miks.. One, they don't have emulsion tubes and two, the float bowl is too small.. Both lead problems due to areation of fuel in the fuel system. An emulsion tube will help to stabilize fuel flow and a deeper bowl will help to control then fuel level.. Remember Minton helped with the design..   Increasing pressure in the fuel system is a bandaid fix.. Ever wonder why the SnS carbs don't have this problem?? 

Max

They also run like "Potty mouth".
One of the worst street carbs ever.
All those mods just to make em run decent?

Never ever have I seen or heard of aireation issues with Miks.
Pumps have been used for years and are SO stuff for racing snowmobiles.
Forced fed bowls work great for racing applications where large amounts of fuel are needed... IE. large cube motors.
Normal street stuff doesn't need it but if your up there in rpm with large cubes, it is required.

[build it]

Related thread: http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,19641.25.html

[Admiral Akbar]

They also run like "Potty mouth".
One of the worst street carbs ever.
All those mods just to make em run decent?

Never ever have I seen or heard of aireation issues with Miks.
Pumps have been used for years and are SO stuff for racing snowmobiles.
Forced fed bowls work great for racing applications where large amounts of fuel are needed... IE. large cube motors.
Normal street stuff doesn't need it but if your up there in rpm with large cubes, it is required.

Funny I've had more problems with Mikuni's than with SnS carbs.. Motor I got pulls 144/146 with the HSR48 without any sign of leanness at WOT but wouldn't cruise at a constant speed with an occasional cough / stumble.. Going up on the needle and needle jet made it better.. Funny but rubber mounting the air cleaner allowed me to drop the needle and needjet..The bowl baffle posted in the link also helped. Doing things to reduce vibration help to the point where the I dropped the needle and needle jet even more.. WOT the thing never misses a beat.. 

Max


Add also had a venting problem with the gas cap early on.. Can't blame that on the carb tho.

Max

[speed limit]

Max I made my own spacer like most other do dads, I`m a Mikuni guy with a hi flow pet cock and 5/16 fuel line there is no way your going to exceed the demand of gravity heck a even a stock petcock will drain a tank in 10 minutes you think you can run through a tank that quick not even at wot

[speed limit]

Well I tore into my engine this week I had suspected blow by because my oil was turning dark prematurely, I found a 1" section of the bottom piston ring land broken off the rear, both pistons had worn out wrist pin bores, mild scuffing on the piston skirts same with cylinder walls, it looks like there is plenty of material on the cylinder liners so I`m going ahead with my plan to bore them + .062 and install wiesco 4.312 pistons with +6cc domes this will give me a 131 @ best I can figure around 11:1 comp. thinking of maybe a cam change its got a S&S 640 now my question is do you guys think there is enough difference between the ss 640, red shift 647, t man 662 or wood 9f to discern ?

[Nowhereman]

Well I tore into my engine this week I had suspected blow by because my oil was turning dark prematurely, I found a 1" section of the bottom piston ring land broken off the rear, both pistons had worn out wrist pin bores, mild scuffing on the piston skirts same with cylinder walls, it looks like there is plenty of material on the cylinder liners so I`m going ahead with my plan to bore them + .062 and install wiesco 4.312 pistons with +6cc domes this will give me a 131 @ best I can figure around 11:1 comp. thinking of maybe a cam change its got a S&S 640 now my question is do you guys think there is enough difference between the ss 640, red shift 647, t man 662 or wood 9f to discern ?

Could not say but, I bet the T man or the Woods unit will make more valve train noise.
Just make sure you do the math with those bump sticks to insure a good cylinder pressure is achievable.

[speed limit]

Yeah I`ve run the 9F in the past didn't mind the noise but it seemed to be hard on front exhaust lifters

[HD/Wrench]

the 640 at that compression and CI will work very well. Keep valve train noise and wear well under the curve vs over.. Look forward to seeing the tq curve on that monster.. I have a dyno sheet of the 140 engine in the files. Will have to see if I can dig it out.

[speed limit]

well my 4 1/2 stroke X 4 5/16 Ultima 131 is together, starts easy and runs as quiet as a stocker put about 50 miles on it last night in the rain

[Nowhereman]

Should be a torque monster and they are fun.

[speed limit]

"Houston we have a problem" fired the bike up so I could get a few more easy miles in let it fast idle 1800 rpm for a minute or two eased out my driveway and down the road shifted into 2nd @ 2000 rpm and bike shut`s off just like I bumped  the kill switch, pulled over and tried to restart and noticed that the motor spun over real easy anyway got It home checked things out and no its not a electrical problem the right side pinion shaft broke off ouch!  lower end has 60,000 miles on it, do you guys think the increase in compression had anything to do with this or was it just time and metal fatigue ?

[Nowhereman]

A fresh top end puts strain on a tired bottom but 60k is not that much.
This one will be interesting to  see.
My bet is that you got a seizure in one of the cylinders.
Maybe partial.

[speed limit]

Just puled the engine, crank was shot I can get 1/8'' movement from side 2 side, I`ll split the cases tomorrow and see just what happened, I think I will replace the crank with a 4 5/8 with the 4 5/16 pistons it will be a 135"

[Nowhereman]

[speed limit]

Got the cases split bearings on left side were toast, at least the cases are good 

[Nowhereman]

Man u musta beat the snot out of that thing.
Should of gotten at least 100k out of the bottom end.

[speed limit]

8 years 60,000 miles not bad for a motor making 150 ft.lbs.of torque its seen all types of duty from racing to touring, I think I hurt it when riding with a Yamaha Royal Star across Texas we rode through a couple tanks of gas at speeds above 100 mph

[speed limit]

Got it back together S&S 4 5/8 crank JE 4 5/16 + 6 mil dome pistons 640 cam std stage 4  oval port heads mikuni 48 jims roller rockers, I will get it into the frame this week should be a runner

[Nowhereman]

That pump is gonna be an ape raper when it's fired up.
Enjoy it.

[speed limit]

Back on the road this thing is a hoot   

[strokerjlk]

Back on the road this thing is a hoot   

bet it is

[Classic Beast]

It's been a while since you got this up and running, any more problems? My 127 has about 30,000 miles on it so far no problems but I am getting what sounds like either piston slap or piston pin noise. I switched the carb over to a 51mm SE CV carb and I find it works better than the mikuni or the S&S to fit it I just machined down the S&S manifold.

[Nowhereman]

It's been a while since you got this up and running, any more problems? My 127 has about 30,000 miles on it so far no problems but I am getting what sounds like either piston slap or piston pin noise. I switched the carb over to a 51mm SE CV carb and I find it works better than the mikuni or the S&S to fit it I just machined down the S&S manifold.

Thats a lot of carb for a street motor.
Low end snap to midrange must be somewhat compromised one would think.

[Classic Beast]

127 cu in, 640 lift cam, 268 duration 10:1 compression it pulls hard right from 2000 RPM no dead spots the same lower end torque as the 45mm mikuni that came with it but it woke up the top end, runs a lot smoother at idle and part throttle, its all done by about 5000 rpm.

[speed limit]

my 640 pulls like a rape ape up 6500 rev limit

[Classic Beast]

what 640 cam are you running I still have in the stock ultima cam that came with the 127 I tried a 640 S&S cam but liked how the Ultima cam ran better. If your using the ultima rockers they are a higher ratio I think the 640 S&S cam actually works out to .672.

[Nowhereman]

Dropped in a set of Smith Bros. push rods a few days ago.
I had a rear exhaust rod just slightly bowed.
After fitting, nice and quiet at all rpms.
The only tricky thing is you have to completely take them apart to get them in.
Then you re-thread them together and adjust.
Lots of engagement on those puppies.
Very much like the quality of the SB units compared to whats out there now.
The price is good also.

[Classic Beast]

I'm still running the Ultima pushrods that came with the 127 no issues with them.

[Nowhereman]

That's good.
I'm thinking one of my lifters went weird and that's why the rear exhaust bowed some.
Not a lot but if you can feel it, change it.
When I do a top end refresh someday, the lifters will be replaced regardless.
It's a great motor and responds to mods instantly.
All it needs is a good drive line set up. (clutch / final drive)

[speed limit]

Didn't ride mine much this year front rocker arm support bracket cracked and took out cam,pushrod and rocker cover so I pushed it in the corner of the garage and proceded to put 12,000 miles on my new road glide special. I have had my share of problems with this engine since i made it a 135, this rebuild i will put on a new set of 4 1/4 cylinders and pistons with the 4 5/8 I have that will make it a 131

[Classic Beast]

I also broke the rocker arm support on the rear cylinder shortly after I got the motor, it was fixed under warranty I installed S&S lifters before ever starting the motor and have had no problems with them but it's still noisy which I am told is from the combination of heavy springs and the cam profile, I did try the S&S 640 cam but it wasn't any quieter.

[westcomb]

I also broke the rocker arm support on the rear cylinder shortly after I got the motor, it was fixed under warranty I installed S&S lifters before ever starting the motor and have had no problems with them but it's still noisy which I am told is from the combination of heavy springs and the cam profile, I did try the S&S 640 cam but it wasn't any quieter.

Did your motor have triple springs? ........... Or Beehive springs? ............ I'm not sure what the spring pressures are ether way? ..... But I've seen the Ultimas motor come with both over the years?

[Classic Beast]

Triple springs, don't have the specs handy right now but once the broken support was replaced it's held together for 50,000 now

[westcomb]

Triple springs, don't have the specs handy right now but once the broken support was replaced it's held together for 50,000 now

Good to know ........... I would guess the load from the triple springs is higher?

[Classic Beast]

Triple springs, don't have the specs handy right now but once the broken support was replaced it's held together for 50,000 now

Good to know ........... I would guess the load from the triple springs is higher?

Spring specs, its been a few years since I worked on the 127 so my memory.....

high silicone wire springs.
Installed height: 1.850 @ 160lb.
1.150 @ 400lb.
Coil bind: 1.050
Max recommended lift: .700
Spring O.D. 1.460

[strokerjlk]

Triple springs, don't have the specs handy right now but once the broken support was replaced it's held together for 50,000 now

Good to know ........... I would guess the load from the triple springs is higher?

Spring specs, its been a few years since I worked on the 127 so my memory.....

high silicone wire springs.
Installed height: 1.850 @ 160lb.
1.150 @ 400lb.
Coil bind: 1.050
Max recommended lift: .700
Spring O.D. 1.460

do you have the stock cam specs?

[pumpguy68]

http://www.ultimaproducts.com/CSEngineManual.pdf  Page 6. Cam specs.


Ray m

[strokerjlk]

http://www.ultimaproducts.com/CSEngineManual.pdf  Page 6. Cam specs.


Ray m

thank you