Does your bagger handle like a drunken camel in a sand storm?

[Admiral Akbar]

I can say the brace is worth every penny.

So did you check pre-load on the swingarm mount which was the purpose of this exercise, instead of spending 400 bucks for the bagger brace??  If you could have fixed the problem with a 2 dollar shim and new better profile tires (which this bike needs), would the bagger brace be worth every penny?  If so I might have some other stuff for sale.. 

FWIW some like the 402s. They do seem to work OK when new.. If you don't push the bike many might not ever even notice the issues.. It still handles just fine below 70 with worn tires.

I just spent 400 bucks on one gadget, you want to me to spend 400 on another?  Maybe the 2 together will work? 

Did you read this whole thread?

Max

[Admiral Akbar]

I can tell you, the Bagger Brace made a world of difference on how my bagger handles corners.

High speed or low speed?

Max

[Eglider05]

Max,

The Bagger Brace is $290 shipped unless it went up a bunch since I bought mine, and I agree worth every penny at any speed.  Bagger Brace, E3's, Works fork springs and shocks and my 05 handles and rides better than either of the "new frame" bikes I've ridden. One of the owners of the new bikes will attest to that.

Rick

[FLTRI]

And I have a 2003 RG with a 117 that never wobbles...at any speed, any corner.
Bob
Max is right IMO. No need to add on do-dads IF everything else is in good shape and aligned/tightened up.

Some bikes seem to wobble no matter what...like my '94 Ultra...since day 1...no matter what (complete ground up rebuild with all new wear parts).

I was told by an insider that the frame jigs were very worn and have found some variances in geometry between the steering head and it relation to the swingarm pivot.

This would cause the wheels to travel in different vectors from each other. This would cause vehicle instability as the chassis moves through its travel...especially in high speed corners.

No add-on do-dads fixed the problem...tried them all.
I'm to cheap and lazy to replace the frame after more than 110,000mi of dealing with the "high speed weave" as it is referred to by the MOCO.

Bob

Not heard of handling issues with 09-up chassis...except from worn out (square) tires.
Just my $.02,
Bob

[Deye76]

Concerning my post on wheel bearings, fingers and brain were not synchronized. My aftermarket rear wheel has the 3 thinner width bearings, and the '08 up factory rear wheel has only 2 thinner bearings (even worse than the aftermarket IMO). Wanted to clear that up. After installing new bearings ($15.00eaX3 need to source these) no lateral movement measured with an indicator, test ride = 
Motor mount and stabilizers have been previously replaced, swingarm solid, so I have to agree with FLTRI and Max, when these things check out along with good shocks and tires and the neck bearing properly tightened, no braces needed. 

[Tbones]

I can say the brace is worth every penny.

So did you check pre-load on the swingarm mount which was the purpose of this exercise, instead of spending 400 bucks for the bagger brace??  If you could have fixed the problem with a 2 dollar shim and new better profile tires (which this bike needs), would the bagger brace be worth every penny?  If so I might have some other stuff for sale.. 

FWIW some like the 402s. They do seem to work OK when new.. If you don't push the bike many might not ever even notice the issues.. It still handles just fine below 70 with worn tires.

I just spent 400 bucks on one gadget, you want to me to spend 400 on another?  Maybe the 2 together will work? 

Did you read this whole thread?

Max

Yes, I read the whole thread.  I was simply stating that the bagger brace helped a great deal with the known issue of the dresser frames flexing in corners creating the pogo effect.  Even if you fix all of the known issues that can cause handling problems, tires, tire pressures, steering stem bearings etc., the inherit problem with the frame flexing in corners is still there.  The brace will help and will be noticed at high speeds going into corners.  Hope this explains my post better.

[strokerjlk]

Bruce
my 07 ultra. 402's sucked. tried Avon, metzler, then the E3'S the E3's made a night and day diff.
added a bagger brace. it helped tremendously. it moved the duck walk on hard corning up to a speed most wouldnt go anyway. I still had slight walk two up and loaded down heavy , top heavy with the t bag. the batwing high speed wobble was gone on accel until around 120 mph in 6 th. (about the same as it was at 100 mph when the bike was stage 1.) as you well know the more power you have to "push" at high speed (on accel) the less movement you will have. but the brace did help the decel slight wobble at 120 mph.
along with the 120 r I installed the glide pro kit. left the bagger brace on it also. I am as impressed with the glide pro kit as I am the 120 r.
the bike feels like a sport bike now....or at least like I am on a dyna. there is no wobble at all at 120 mph accel, decel or at cruise
it feels like a 2x4 with wheels. straight and tight.
I will say that my bike has always been one that is tighter than most since brand new. I get to ride a lot of diff baggers and some of them with very low miles feel worn out. not sure what the deal is with some of these baggers.
I haven't been able to put her through the twisties yet,but it feels like a big big improvement.

interesting what your doing ....as always.
like Rick said. if you are not satisified with the glide pro. Jake will take it back and refund your money. I wish I would have installed one 60,000 miles ago

[FLTRI]

...helped a great deal with the known issue of the dresser frames flexing in corners creating the pogo effect...the inherit problem with the frame flexing in corners is still there.

No indication of frame flex on these baggers. Got any documented frame flex? Basically the same frame as the FXR, which was arguably the best handling Harley ever made. Swingarm flex/movement yes. A problem when ridden sanely and all parts are properly maintained, no.

The new ('09-up) frames are no better than earlier frames for flex but a ton better in swingarm flex/movement. Just take a peek at one the next time you get a chance...they are BEEFY!!!
JME,
Bob
PS - Most pogoing is due to piss-poor shock dampening...as in lack of rebound dampening. OEM air shock damper valving is good for between 10k and 30k depending how and where you ride and loading. Aftermarket shocks/springs are usually much stiffer than stock and some complain they are too stiff while others feel they are much better.

[FLTRI]

Max,
Let us know when you get a chance to ride your bike with a new tire.
Every time I get a high speed feeling of instability I take a look at my rear tire...yep squared off.
New tire and the bike feels great again...for another 6-8k miles. I ride mostly in the twisties at speeds most think is not safe.
Don't have high speed (>100mph) straight line wobble...do have some feeling of instability when I abruptly roll off the throttle in a high speed down hill sweeper that I entered way too fast.
Bob

[Tbones]

...helped a great deal with the known issue of the dresser frames flexing in corners creating the pogo effect...the inherit problem with the frame flexing in corners is still there.

No indication of frame flex on these baggers. Got any documented frame flex? Basically the same frame as the FXR, which was arguably the best handling Harley ever made. Swingarm flex/movement yes. A problem when ridden sanely and all parts are properly maintained, no.

No, I don't have any documentation on frame flex, all I have is how the bike felt going into corners hot without the brace and how it feels going into corners hot with the brace.  It's just how I ride.  I wasn't "telling" the OP to get one, I was just putting the brace out there for info.  To each their own and to how they ride.  I'm an aggressive rider, maybe not "sane" to others but I'm comfortable with how I ride.  If you or the OP don't think the brace is worth it, that's great.  But maybe other members reading this thread would be interested.  Here is an interesting article about the new frame starting in 09.  About 2/3 rds of the way down they talk about frame flex.

http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/harley-davidson/2009-harleydavidson-touring-models-review-86648.html

[Admiral Akbar]

all I have is how the bike felt going into corners hot without the brace and how it feels going into corners hot with the brace.

Well on my EGC I can't feel any difference in stability,  handled crappy both ways..I can go in hot as long and it's below say 60 and not have any problems after I tightened up the isolators.. Yours does sound they are loose.  If you look at the discussion here, the issue is not enough compression on the rubber isolators,, I have no doubt that adding the bagger brace helps as it controls lateral movement of the drive train in the frame but with the isolators setup correctly it is a non issue.. .. So why blow 300 bucks when you probably only need to spent 2?  Not sure I understand the logic.. (of course I just spent 400 to see if glide pro would work for me.)

My 02 RK drives straighter than I can and it don't have any prosthetics.. It does have good shocks front and rear, mag wheels (Older HD spoked steel rims suck, I suspect that's why HD went to the contoured rims), and Micheline Tires..  Micheline work real well, as do Bridgestones. 402s and 'zillian Metzlers suck. FWIW the shocks are set up nice and soft but damping is good.  King handles like a sport bike (but it needs to go on a diet  loose about 350 lbs )

I do plan to change rear tire on the Electraglide.  See how much it improves, Will even toss the tour pack back on then pull the glide pro and see if any instability returns.. I may change over to early swing arm brackets as they are stiffer.

If I can't tell any difference, I will send the glide pro back and may try the bagger brace. Want to make sure I can get my money back on that one..

Max

[Admiral Akbar]

'It was becoming clear to Harley that a more robust frame was needed'

BTW this is marketing dribble to get others to dump their old bikes and by new ones.. If you are falling for that..  They did rehang then motor to make it stiffer more consistent. Went to better tires.. Lower profile in the front, wider with better contour in the back.. They added a little trail to make the bike steer slower, and give the feeling of stability  and help the "loose" ones but I prefer less trail.

Stop reading those magazines. they'll rot your brain..

Max

[FLTRI]

Here is an interesting article about the new frame starting in 09.  About 2/3 rds of the way down they talk about frame flex.

I believe you are referring to this comment based on Pete Brissette's personal opinions:
"Bending the big bike through fast-paced sweepers revealed a distinct lack of flex and wallow commonly experienced on the previous chassis."
There is no documentation stipulating a more rigid frame...at least from the MOCO.

From the MOCO 2009 Tech Forum:
Frame & Mounts
* Completely redesigned frame
* 2 piece bolt-together construction
* Majority robotically welded
* New 4 point engine mount system
* Removable rear frame section
If anything I am suspect the new 2 piece frame will allow for more flex than the original 1 piece frame.

I am glad you have found adding a bracket to your bike fixed your handling issues.
I just hear a lot about how add-on do-dads magically turn wallowing 800 lb pigs into sportbikes.
"Rock solid handling at any speed."
Sorry if I offended,
Bob

[Tbones]

glad you have found adding a bracket to your bike fixed your handling issues.
I just hear a lot about how add-on do-dads magically turn wallowing 800 lb pigs into sportbikes.
"Rock solid handling at any speed."
Sorry if I offended,
Bob

No need to apologize, I wasn't offended .  This brace or anything else that one can do to improve the suspension of dressers is not going to get it to handle like a sport bike, I hope no-one took my post that way.    I probably used the wrong terminology by saying taking out the pogo, as another member pointed out, pogoing has more to do with the shocks wanting to rebound.  The feeling I got from my dresser going into a corner hot was more of a mix between a pogo and a wobble, a circular motion that the bike would go thru.  Not quite a pogo and not quite a wobble.

I have a nice road a few miles from my house that I've road on hundreds of times.  It has some nice sweepers and some nice tight corners.  When I put the brace on, I took it out and tested my bike on this road.  The bike was night and day different going thru these corners then before at the same speeds I normally went thru them.  The bike was noticabley more stable and the "flex" was reduced by as much as 80%.  That's not scientific proof, I don't have an engineering degree, but I know what I felt before and after I installed the brace.  For me, it was worth the price.  I realize most people don't ride like I do so buying this brace probably wouldn't be a good investment. 

[Admiral Akbar]

The feeling I got from my dresser going into a corner hot was more of a mix between a pogo and a wobble, a circular motion that the bike would go thru.

Yep, Exactly.. Like a hinge in the middle of the bike,. Drunken camel in sand storm..

Max

[Tbones]

'It was becoming clear to Harley that a more robust frame was needed'

BTW this is marketing dribble to get others to dump their old bikes and by new ones.. If you are falling for that..  They did rehang then motor to make it stiffer more consistent. Went to better tires.. Lower profile in the front, wider with better contour in the back.. They added a little trail to make the bike steer slower, and give the feeling of stability  and help the "loose" ones but I prefer less trail.

Stop reading those magazines. they'll rot your brain..

Max

Using your logic then, I should stop reading posts on this site or, I should just take what you say is fact.  I don't believe the author of that article was marketing for the MOCO.  I don't want to be accused of hijacking this thread so how bout we clear the slate and just forget I mentioned it .

I'd like to get back to your topic.  These washers that you cut out, I am assuming your trying to "tighten" up the side to side movement, am I right or wrong?  If this is the case, I'm wondering if this fix will transfer some motor/tranny vibrations thru the frame?  In any case, what you're doing is interesting, again my apologies, I did not intentionally try to hijack your thread.  Friends call me T.

[Admiral Akbar]

I should stop reading posts on this site

Oh absolutely..

I should have mentioned the internet but forgot.

I am assuming your trying to "tighten" up the side to side movement, am I right or wrong? 

Yep. Increasing the preload on the donuts.. Have you ever looked at the donuts closely?? Do you understands what the ridges are for?

If this is the case, I'm wondering if this fix will transfer some motor/tranny vibrations thru the frame?

I'm sure it could.. in my case it didn't.. The glide pro did.. I made a frame mounted version of the bagger brace on an FXR and it made the vibes worse on it so anything you do can effect vibrations.. It's a 131 tho..

Max

[Tbones]

Yep. Increasing the preload on the donuts.. Have you ever looked at the donuts closely?? Do you understands what the ridges are for?

Yes, I have looked at them many times .  No, I guess I've never been told what the ridges are for, I just looked at their condition and replaced them on both customer and my own bikes over the years.  I am assuming the ridges help reduce the lateral forces, am I wrong?  I'm just asking questions, not trying to dis what you're doing, just trying to understand.  It looks like your on to something so it peaked my interest. 

[Admiral Akbar]

I am assuming the ridges help reduce the lateral forces, am I wrong?

You've sort of got the right idea but they don't reduce the force. They keep the donut from compressing in the lateral direction  but allow it to move in any direction perpendicular to the swing arm pivot..  The offset is mainly to support the loads of the drive train. It's really nothing more than a series of rings that keep the rubber from squishing out when a compressive force occurs.  Controlling the squish hold the rear drive train straight.. On of the most important things is preload on the donuts.  Not enough and you get bagger wobble. Too tight and you get vibes and may even tear up the bushings.. It would be real interesting see the tolerance stackup analysis that HD came up with for the swingarm.. There are probably about 9 differently manufactured parts that controlled that stackup.

1. Tranny (1)
2 inner spacer (2)
3. Spherical bearing (2)  (think one is probably good to a couple tenths)
4. outer spacers (2)
5. Donuts (2)
6. Swing arm brackets (2)
7.  Frame (1)

That is a lot of pieces.. I thing that 1,5,6,7 are the hardest to control..

If you've replaced number donuts look at swingarm brackets.. I suspect the new one are meant to bend a little to set the preload on the system..

BTW anyone got the number for an 02 road king swingarm brackets? 

Looks like they changed in 03 and IIRC 07..

I'm just asking questions, not trying to dis what you're doing,

Actually encourage this stuff.. Keeps me from barking up the wrong tree..

Max

[TXChop]

From my 02 parts book.

50588-93     
50589-93    

from my 05 parts book.

50588-03     
50589-03

any ideas on the difference?

[Admiral Akbar]

Thanks Dan,

Bruce


I'll add to this.. No don't.. unless it is the same as an 07.. Couldn't find my 07 parts book. If it's the same as the 07 then it's a different casting..

BTW the 50588-93 looks to be obsolete..

Max

[TXChop]

50588-07     
50589-07

I know the 07-laters were different..
I got a right side from an 05 if you wanna play around with it?

yup, 50588-93 is obsolete

[Admiral Akbar]

Yep, Got a pic?  Both sides.. If it looks like like the -93, I buy it off you..

Anyone know if they superseded the -93 to the -03?

Bruce

[FLTRI]

I know the locating slot has been widened, possibly for more "Fudge" fit?
Bob

[TXChop]

http://www.progressivesuspension.com/pdfs/updates/3081-003%20Inst%20Touring%20Link.pdf

Maybe the alignment tit is different on the earlier ones? Check the link..

If you want the 05 right side one, pm me you addy and i'll give it to ya.