Shovel Head performance mods?

[Reddog74usa]

Can Shovels really be modified to compete or be close in performance to the Evo's and Tc's? Is it better to just do mild mods like a bolt in cam, carb and exhaust and call it done or go with something like a T&O stroker or Ultima 96 incher? This would be for a bike that you could use as a daily rider with good reliability and occasional touring when necessary.

[HotRodShovel]

Reddog,
I can tell you from my knowledge that exactly what I am doing by building a 96" T&O stroke & bore will give me a completely reliable daily rider and tour bike but there is no way I would take that anywhere near a track. Thats a sure killer. I think, and the guys here who do compete will probably agree, that the competition bikes are regularly broken down and rebuilt with new bearings etc.

I would like to hear from the guys here who have big bore strokers and what their experience with them is. Thats a good question.  in a couple of weeks I will be able to answer that myself....

[prodrag1320]

we ran some big shovels back in the day(96 to 114),if their put together right,their fine.just like ANY shovel,its going to take a little more up keep than an evo or twin cam,but no biggie if your a gearhead

[neten-o]

Yes the guys have got it ..When my engine went up the creek ..I asked my Indy if a big hop up was a reliable thing to do ..he said yes it was providing it is all done right ,this is the key..I really do think that funds permitting I would buy a big inch motor S-S or Ultima or such like and just go ..you could always part the old motor out ..Rich.

[76shuvlinoff]

 
In 03-04 I came into a little "extra" money, put the S&S 93" long block in my FLH and set the matching number oem mill on the shelf. Over the years I've played with a lot of bolt in mods and sooner or later I would like to go monster on her, I won't have to think twice about cutting these S&S cases and heads. I just do not think the oem cases should be beat up on a regular basis.
The oem shovel mill is not real collectible or coveted yet ...except by hardcores . I want to be able to go back to factory numbers in my old age.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
  I think the heavy flywheels eat up miles, hills and vibes, the lightweight ones, bumped compression, carb, cam and pipe work get you a fast redline and the opportunity to really embarrass your evo brethren. Can they repeatedly run with a dyna T/C for a quarter mile times and still be a reliable daily driver without a lot of TLC?  I'm sure some will disagree here and no offense intended but unless you really know what you are doing I am still not convinced you can have all that cake and eat it to.

BTW.... I am not one of the guys that knows what they are doing. I am always learning something new here.

Mark

[prodrag1320]

when you say a dyna twin cam,are we talking stock,or mildly built? if so,a well built,big inch shovel would leave it in the dust

[76shuvlinoff]

No argument here I just wouldn't thump it on a regular basis with stock cases.
  Everyone's bike is their own to do as they choose I am just one of those guys that doesn't want to burn bridges. I would probably throw up if I broke the matching number cases, no such attachment to aftermarket performance parts.

Mark

[Reddog74usa]

I'm talkin about matching a mildly built TC or Evo with bolt on stuff like cams, carb pipes and ignition. I was thinkin of going with a 88-96 inch shovel with a reliable combo and just wanted to know where that would end up performance wise compared to an Evo or Tc with a mild build. Evo's and TC's run real nice with just some bolt on stuff and I was hoping to find a combination for a Shovel that would be equal to that.

[easyricer]

I've ridden some Shovels that STOMP on 96inch Twinkies and warmed over Evo's. It's all in the build. Also have had to work on some warmed up Shovels that just couldn't hang.
Personally I like my dead stock 74 incher just fine. She'll get it up there but just takes a little longer. Working at the shop I get to play with some really powerful bikes, so I tend to get my taste of "Stupid FAST" In about the right doses.
EASY

[prodrag1320]

No argument here I just wouldn't thump it on a regular basis with stock cases.
  Everyone's bike is their own to do as they choose I am just one of those guys that doesn't want to burn bridges. I would probably throw up if I broke the matching number cases, no such attachment to aftermarket performance parts.

Mark

dont be afraid of stock cases,in the early years we ran stock cases on our dragbikes,(114" top gas),no probs at all,if you break a rod or something,it`ll mess aftermarket cases up too,but we never had a problem from the stock case failure

[HotRodShovel]

I thought or fought, long and hard about cutting into my cases. I was thinking I'm messing with a collectible, I should buy aftermarket cases to alter etc.but the truth is I will never sell this machine. I'm 56 and I'm not spending another $20,000.00 + for another bike. Its just not in my stars. But for the first time in my life I have a few bucks I can play with and I do mean "few". Most of this operation will be financed from parts I will be selling on ebay.

The only Harley Davidson components I have in my bike are the heads and cases so its not like I'm breaking up a stock oem machine. I was collecting parts for years, many years ago.  Like I said, I never had money to do what I am planning but I always had the desire. Its something I always saw other guys doing and I did this in my head a thousand times.

My 80" engine ran great but it ran out of breath often wether trying to motor up with Evo's and Twinkies or pass another vehicle. I don't mean racing, I'm talking highway acceleration and cruising.  Thats all I want out of this machine with the occasional twist of the right hand to really move.  It will never race another bike.

This bike will be the only bike I ever have. If I screw up the cases (I'm not even sure how that will happen) my only regret will be the money to buy new ones and the down time to do the work.

But thats me and I know everyone has their own sentiment regarding their rides.  There is also a thing that I can't really put my finger on, but I love wrenching this thing and building a stroked/big bore motor is just something I always wanted to do. I can't put it into words.

I certainly hope I am not going to F up my ride and will be creating a $$ pit but I don't think so.

This is a simple machine. I know the gremlins often do their thing and its sometimes a chore tracking down a problem but other than that, if its done right, I don't know what can go wrong?

What can go wrong?  Again, I'm not going to race thisthing but its just a machine.

[gryphon]

I have not had any problems at all running 88" to 96" motors. However, I have always kept my compression low with my Shovel  motors. My last build is an 88" motor with all S&S internals and Delkron cases. I've been running the cases since the early 90" but put the S&S internals about 5 or 6 years ago. I ran it like that for about 3 years and then put it in my son's build. It runs very strong and for all the trips it has taken it has never cost a minutes time because of the motor. However it is only running compression in the mid 7's. The only EVO motor I can really compare to is mine and that is an unfair comparision. Mine is 97 inches with 9.5 comp.. modified S&S carb, etc. I do not doubt though that if the comp were bumped up to about 9.5 or 10 with dual plugs on the shovel it would make a dramatic difference.  The motor that's now in my sons bike has crossed all the western states except Arizona and New Mexico and crossed most of those states more than once. It has been across the Mojave twice and crossed the Continental Devide twice also. We go on rides every year of about 2000 to 3000 miles (longest was about 3500) to some very remote places. We never question it. However, with that low compression it's not going to embarass any mod'ed EVO's.  If I had it to do over again I would probably have gone with 9 to 1 pistons on the Shovel.

[76shuvlinoff]

Like I said, to each his own, some like antiques some like rods. I appreciate both. I wouldn't bitch someone out if they cut up a 31 chevy either but I wouldn't do it. My shovel may never find it's way back to factory but the world will keep on spinning.

For arguments sake and just because I don't know the answer but I know there are people here that do. Take a properly tuned stage one 96" TC and a built 96" shovel with all things being equal (total weight gearing etc.) How "built" is the shovel? Not just to compete light to light but for overall equal reliability as well.

Don't get me wrong guys I am not stirring crap. My heart is in my shovel because I know if it does anything great it's because I did it (with help of course) As I said before I am not concerned about modding an aftermarket mill and to be honest I'm probably looking for build tips.

 

[HotRodShovel]

Hey Mark,
I am not sure its an equal comparison, (I tried very hard not to use the phrase "its not fair", jeez knows very little on this earth is) however, comparing a factory 96" twin cam machine to a "built" 96" shovelhead in any way. Personally I think they are two completely different objects in terms of engineering as well as technology inherent in their design. You know the old saying, you can't fit 10 lbs of *hit into a 5 lb bag.  It is what it is.  A shovelhead is at best 20 years behind the twinkie in terms of technology. Anything beyond 74" or 80" we get from a shovelhead we do with our fingers crossed but the shovelheads are moving forward with new technology, and there is no thanks to the MoCo for that.

All the aftermarket brains and performance mechanics out there, some are right here on the board, are coming out with parts, methods and experience all blended to give modern "built" shovels a high mark.

We, er, they had 20 years of trial and error to perfect the process. Yes, true for sure there are limits as to how far we can go with a shovel, with the methods, engineering and the experience of the big brains out there, and here, a 96" shovel is really only moderately enhanced. Guys are going past 120".

In 20 years I would like to see what the twin cams are turning out.

Like I said, I will not buy a new bike not only because there are other things I need my money for, but every nut/bolt, wire, weld, paint and whatever else is in there...I had my hands on so I could never buy that kind of sentiment. But a mere set of factory cases, I'm not too moved. If the whole bike was matched up, thats a different story and I probably would not do anything I could not undo.

Its not going to look any different. It will still look like a Duo Glide but it will be the Duo Glide from Hell.....

[76shuvlinoff]

It will still look like a Duo Glide but it will be the Duo Glide from Hell.....

[hotham]

I built my 93" with Delkron cases.  The secret to making most any motor run hard,  is the heads.  I had Gerolomy weld up the intakes to get more velocity and we ported and flowed the heads.  I have run several different cams, depending where I want the power to come on.  Now one thing I did was reduce as much weight as I could.  Light unsprung weight and I built a fast, reliable, Shovelhead.  I don't need outside oil lines and I kept the compression at 9 to 1.  Dual plug, single fire ignition and I was done.  Now I admit this build was not cheap, but careful assembly and attention to detail, was needed.  I love it when an Evo or TC wants to see who is fastest.  The look on their face,  when they have to admit a Shovelhead beat them, was worth what I spent.

[prodrag1320]

we used alot of STD shovelheads,by leaps & bounds the best shovelheads ever made.wish i would have bought a bunch of them before they went under(got a REAL nice,pristine set of 3.625 Branch shovelheads if anyones interested)

[Reddog74usa]

Just for info The Ultima heads are an exact copy of the STD's

[Deye76]

"wish i would have bought a bunch of them before they went under"

Wish I would have picked up a set of Panheads. 

[PanHeadRed]

>Evo's and TC's run real nice with just some bolt on stuff and I was hoping to find a combination for a Shovel that would be equal to that.<

Your not going to, it will take compression and fly wheels.

[Reddog74usa]

It's lookin like Evo's are the best bang for the buck but I sure like how the old iron runs n rides  I was thinkin of buying an Ultima 96 incher and sending the heads up to Mike Sorenson in Canada but were probably lookin at 6 grand for around 100 HP :cry:I could just do a Ultima 113 in my FXR with a set of heads done by John Sachs makin real good power for under 4 K. Shovels are nice but man they are expensive to build. Guess it just depends on what ya want eh?

[gryphon]

When Ultima first announced that they were gonna be producing Shovels a lot of guys figured they would be in the same price range as their EVO's. I recall speculation that it would force S&S to drop their prices. However, this is not the case. You can buy a 127" EVO motor from Ultima for $3400 but a 96 inch Shovel will run you $5100. I doubt it has anything to do with actual production costs. It's a limited market. I would guess that the majority of Shovel guys are because they've been riding them for so long. Limited market and designer motor = higher sales prices.

[Reddog74usa]

LOL!!!!!! Makes sense but I'm not a designer kinda rider 

[otis]

Great comments so far.....

My .02.  The EVO and TC are better and more reliable motors than the Shovel.  That is a simple fact of technology moving forward; especially the combustion chamber efficiency.

Don't get me wrong.  I LOVE my Shovel.  However, dollar for dollar; if I put the same amount of cash into each motor -  the TC would be #1, EVO #2, and Shovel #3.

Now, can a Shovel make Good power?  Yes, absolutely!!  It'll cost money and time to keep maintained....  Worth it?  Only YOU can decide that.

Pat

[Reddog74usa]

Great comments so far.....

My .02.  The EVO and TC are better and more reliable motors than the Shovel.  That is a simple fact of technology moving forward; especially the combustion chamber efficiency.

Don't get me wrong.  I LOVE my Shovel.  However, dollar for dollar; if I put the same amount of cash into each motor -  the TC would be #1, EVO #2, and Shovel #3.

Now, can a Shovel make Good power?  Yes, absolutely!!  It'll cost money and time to keep maintained....  Worth it?  Only YOU can decide that.

Pat

[BB]

Otis's comment on shovel heads combustion chambers reminded me of a question I have had for a lone time . I have asked Mike at Ultima and he didn't know. If a company like Ultima was to build a shovel engine , would it make sense to design the combustion chamber to use a flat top piston and quench to help for a more effection burn and cost of parts? I know by dual plugging the head it will help on burn.
I think it might be more than just welding or casting a quench in the head.I think Jerry Branch was doing that years ago with the his heads , I don't really know.
Has anybody tried to use a Evo piston in a shovel engine ? I never really looked at it. Is the wrist pin height the same on the two piston?And how bad will the valve be shrouded by the added casting?Is valve angle a problem?Is deck height a issue?This is just some of the question that pop up .
I guess my real question is , has anybody tried to help or change the combustion chamber efficiency this way ?
For years I have built shovel engines with "Traditional" modification , that we all know may help the engine. I would like hear other oppions on this.

[prodrag1320]

$$ for power,ide put the EVO ahead of the TWIN CAM,a 96" evo will eat a 96" TC,and a 103" evo will really stomp the crap out of a 103" TC,and so on,and so on

[Reddog74usa]

Sorenson Performance is making heads with a squish area. Very nice quality stuff and he knows what he's doing. here's a link
http://www.spchoppers.com/

ProDrag I agree on the Evo's being the better engine for power mods. Hell my 113 Ultima made 139.8HP with just some head work from John Sachs. Most of the TC builds I'm seeing are not as good even with larger engines like the 120R. I do think for just a mild bolt in cam, carb and iggy The Tc's edge out the Evo's but when it comes to strokin, head work and more involved builds the Evo is the better bang for the buck.

[BB]

Reddog , cool stuff .

[stroker800]

   I have a shovel that runs and eats evos and twinkies,,,its a stroker 4.75...I had an 88" pan that ran strong as hell,,STD,,S&S  But you are correct evo is best bang for buck..I have 2 evo bikes now,,the RK turns out over 90hp at back wheel,,ride it all day long..It seems you can't build a motor for what Ultima is sellin them for...A 127 will fit stock frame and if it pulls 120 hp,, that should be great on the roads...
Dave