New Tuner - Rev Performance Precision EMS Wide Band Unit

[BVHOG]

Brian, I truly would like your opinion on the accuracy of the broad band sensors when used in the Harley application and their life expectancy.

[Don D]

Bob
Call him up!

[sportygordy]

Bob
Call him up!

And post the answer   

[1FSTRK]

Brian, I truly would like your opinion on the accuracy of the broad band sensors when used in the Harley application and their life expectancy.

Why would this be any different because Rev does their download?
Am I missing something? Are they using them in some new manor?
Please explain the connection between this new tuner and the old subject that has already
been road to death.

[BVHOG]

Bob
Call him up!

Actually tried last week, lines were very busy.

The obvious reason for my question is the conflicting info we are being fed by the producers of differing products, one says the broad bands work great (which I may agree with) and another who uses a different type of 02 sensor claims them to not only be superior but insinuates that the broad bands are not up to the task in the Harley application. So which one is it? If I were to be spending my hard earned dollars on one system or the other I would like to hear why one is superior or at least capable compared to the other.

[FLTRI]

The obvious? reason for my question is the conflicting info we are being fed by the producers of differing products, one says the broad bands work great (which I may agree with) and another who uses a different type of 02 sensor claims them to not only be superior but insinuates that the broad bands are not up to the task in the Harley application....

I think there may be just a bit of  going on here?

[mayor]

I think there may be just a bit of  going on here?

I would tend to agree, but see no harm in the question as long as it's a legitimate question and everyone remains civil and respectful.

[Sc00ter]

The obvious? reason for my question is the conflicting info we are being fed by the producers of differing products, one says the broad bands work great (which I may agree with) and another who uses a different type of 02 sensor claims them to not only be superior but insinuates that the broad bands are not up to the task in the Harley application....

I think there may be just a bit of  going on here?

You think?  Just a bit?     I'll bet the professionals involved leave it alone and keep the thread free of the usual tired debates...

[mike 120]

Is it possible there isn't an absolute best of the two? 

[FLTRI]

Just have to accept a couple basic facts as applied to electronics:
* Heat and vibration kills. (reason for the MOCO moving them way away from high combustion temp and cylinder vibration?)
* Some are more robust than others. (Short stout sensors ie:Twin Cam eng temp (short/stubby) is more robust than O2)
It applies to all sensors, not just O2 sensors.
Bob

[BVHOG]

The obvious? reason for my question is the conflicting info we are being fed by the producers of differing products, one says the broad bands work great (which I may agree with) and another who uses a different type of 02 sensor claims them to not only be superior but insinuates that the broad bands are not up to the task in the Harley application....

I think there may be just a bit of  going on here?

I don't appreciate your insinuations, there has been conflicting info here and all I wan't is a solid answer, if you have it, post up, if you don't thats fine also but don't accuse me of stirring the pot when your own post has done exactly that.

[BVHOG]

now, BV that post does not look civil and respectful.  could you edit that to tone that down a fuzz....

How's that boss, still too much?

[Steve Cole]

BV

All one needs to do is go back over the last several years and look at the amount of failed LSU 4 sensors in the motorcycle industry then continue on to look at the amount that failed in the racing industry. Many with T-max have gone to using the tuning feature then once dialed in shutting it off and removing the sensors and replacing with plugs. If those numbers are good to you then go right ahead and use them but do NOT for one minute try and compare them to a real Wide Band sensor.

[BVHOG]

BV

All one needs to do is go back over the last several years and look at the amount of failed LSU 4 sensors in the motorcycle industry then continue on to look at the amount that failed in the racing industry. Many with T-max have gone to using the tuning feature then once dialed in shutting it off and removing the sensors and replacing with plugs. If those numbers are good to you then go right ahead and use them but do NOT for one minute try and compare them to a real Wide Band sensor.

I understand that and the thought of failed 02 sensors was one of my biggest concerns when I first saw them on the HD line with the 06 dyna, my first one went on my Streetbob at less than 500 miles.   If you see a CEL on an auto you have a pretty good chance of it being an 02 failure. My concerns with leaving any 02 sensor functioning is the owner dumping who knows what for additives in the tank and degrading or causing complete 02 failure because of it. FWIW I don't think the LSU's are the answer for complete fuel control because of degradation. Time will tell.
As for using the Tmax broad bands for tuning and then shutting them off much the same thing has been done on many Delphi units and is happening more and more with the constant influx of bigger better faster more radical builds.

[Steve Cole]

BV

All one needs to do is go back over the last several years and look at the amount of failed LSU 4 sensors in the motorcycle industry then continue on to look at the amount that failed in the racing industry. Many with T-max have gone to using the tuning feature then once dialed in shutting it off and removing the sensors and replacing with plugs. If those numbers are good to you then go right ahead and use them but do NOT for one minute try and compare them to a real Wide Band sensor.

I understand that and the thought of failed 02 sensors was one of my biggest concerns when I first saw them on the HD line with the 06 dyna, my first one went on my Streetbob at less than 500 miles.   If you see a CEL on an auto you have a pretty good chance of it being an 02 failure. My concerns with leaving any 02 sensor functioning is the owner dumping who knows what for additives in the tank and degrading or causing complete 02 failure because of it. FWIW I don't think the LSU's are the answer for complete fuel control because of degradation. Time will tell.
As for using the Tmax broad bands for tuning and then shutting them off much the same thing has been done on many Delphi units and is happening more and more with the constant influx of bigger better faster more radical builds.

So far we have seen good life, not great life on the HD stock O2 sensors. While there have been some failures not near the rate the LSU4's have shown. It's not the engine build that seems to cause them to fail when you look at what the failures come off of, seems to be an even mix of combination's. I see no reason to turn off a perfectly good working sensor when the failure rate is as good as it is with the stock O2's unless there is another problem. If there is another problem you need to fix it and move on. Some just want to believe you need to run an HD engine much richer than it needs to be and as long as they think that they will continue doing it and not learn.

This is a Rev performance (Brian's) thread as I've said before so if you want to discuss O2 sensors in a civil and respectful mannor it needs to be in another thread.

[Jeffd]

BV

All one needs to do is go back over the last several years and look at the amount of failed LSU 4 sensors in the motorcycle industry then continue on to look at the amount that failed in the racing industry. Many with T-max have gone to using the tuning feature then once dialed in shutting it off and removing the sensors and replacing with plugs. If those numbers are good to you then go right ahead and use them but do NOT for one minute try and compare them to a real Wide Band sensor.

I understand that and the thought of failed 02 sensors was one of my biggest concerns when I first saw them on the HD line with the 06 dyna, my first one went on my Streetbob at less than 500 miles.   If you see a CEL on an auto you have a pretty good chance of it being an 02 failure. My concerns with leaving any 02 sensor functioning is the owner dumping who knows what for additives in the tank and degrading or causing complete 02 failure because of it. FWIW I don't think the LSU's are the answer for complete fuel control because of degradation. Time will tell.
As for using the Tmax broad bands for tuning and then shutting them off much the same thing has been done on many Delphi units and is happening more and more with the constant influx of bigger better faster more radical builds.

So far we have seen good life, not great life on the HD stock O2 sensors. While there have been some failures not near the rate the LSU4's have shown. It's not the engine build that seems to cause them to fail when you look at what the failures come off of, seems to be an even mix of combination's. I see no reason to turn off a perfectly good working sensor when the failure rate is as good as it is with the stock O2's unless there is another problem. If there is another problem you need to fix it and move on. Some just want to believe you need to run an HD engine much richer than it needs to be and as long as they think that they will continue doing it and not learn.

This is a Rev performance (Brian's) thread as I've said before so if you want to discuss O2 sensors in a civil and respectful mannor it needs to be in another thread.

cool post.  so what is an ideal range ie from leanest to richest an average new harley should be in to insure long life of the motor? I am one that does not give a rip about what the heat feels like on my legs.  I was a motor for 10 years and owned a Honda ST1300 so a little heat off a harley motor is nothing.  You could cook eggs with the heat coming off the ST1300/

[x52gnr]

 Any more feedback on this product? I pulled the trigger and ordered on from Jenni, great price and quick delivery...I will be shipping my ecm out in the next couple days and hope to have some personal results in the next few weeks, weather and work will dictate when that happens though. It seems from what I can sort through from here and the CVO forum that it does what it says....

[Dennis The Menace]

x52, you will be impressed with the product.  Just remember, its for those who dont wish to tinker and tune.  Its for those who want to install it and just ride the bike.  Its quick and easy to install.  When you start the bike the first time, just let it get warmed up and you are done and ready to ride.

As Brian pointed out, it adjusts on fly as you ride to provide optimal AFR for the riding conditions you are at.  I never had an issue with mine.

Also, just my personal experience, the wide band sensors I ran with TMax (same as ECM) held up fine for 12k miles, no degradation.  I expect these 02's to last a good 25-30K, minimum, depending on application.  They happen to be the same exact sensor in my 2004 Mecedes Benz, and I only replaced mine earlier this year because they were over 5 years old (with 55k miles on them).  Yes, a different application and environment, but the LSU4 is more durable than one would think.  This was confirmed by my MB dealer that said I shouldnt worry about the O2s for at least another 50K miles. (They recommend changing at 100-120K mile service intervals)

However, I can see if the O2 is placed close to the exhaust port it will be subject to high heat in the path.  However, the MB dealer told me the cat on my vehicle reaches over 1,000 degrees at highway speed, consistently.  So, application on the HD, depending on the pipe, should be a non issue.

JME

Dennis

[x52gnr]

  Thanks Dennis, It ran good with the Tmax but I was constantly tinkering with the map and it just got frustrating after a while. I felt like I was so wound up in how the bike ran and what I should adjust next that it took away from the pleasure of riding...and if its something I can tinker with , Will tinker..lol Since this system also utilizes the stock sensors to adjust timing rather than me tinkering with a map I think I will be better off as well. My riding conditions, weights, pulling trailer etc vary so much I could never seem to get the best balance. I did notice the sensors are the same as the ones used on the Tmax with the exception of the connectors but this would be an easy switchover if needed on the road somewhere..I appreciate the tolerance and patience most show on this forum as I am no expert and I am sure I have asked my share of stupid or redundant questions. As Mayor stated in another post sometimes the bickering and nit picking gets way out of hand and i imagine it has prevented a lot of good questions being asked for fear of being pounced upon..I know I have felt this way in the past.  Thanks for listening, back to your current programming ...lol

[WVULTRA]

Any more feedback on this product? I pulled the trigger and ordered on from Jenni, great price and quick delivery...I will be shipping my ecm out in the next couple days and hope to have some personal results in the next few weeks, weather and work will dictate when that happens though. It seems from what I can sort through from here and the CVO forum that it does what it says....

x52:

Didn't know if you'd seen this write-up on the RevPerf install and results:

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=58189.0

Pretty thorough.....

[x52gnr]

x52:



Didn't know if you'd seen this write-up on the RevPerf install and results:

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=58189.0

Pretty thorough.....


[/quote]

  Thanks WV  that was what i was looking for...

[cody]

 Brian, I have a 2009 Street Glide with Cycle Shack slip-on's. If I did the EMS I would add a high flow air cleaner for now (plan to do a cam later).
My bike is still under warranty until July. My question is if I had to take my bike in for warranty work could I re-install the narrow band sensors, remove the O2 interpreter, install the stock air filter and pipes and be able to ride the bike ?

[FLTRI]

Brian, I have a 2009 Street Glide with Cycle Shack slip-on's. If I did the EMS I would add a high flow air cleaner for now (plan to do a cam later).
My bike is still under warranty until July. My question is if I had to take my bike in for warranty work could I re-install the narrow band sensors, remove the O2 interpreter, install the stock air filter and pipes and be able to ride the bike ?

Since the ECM's stock calibration is reprogrammed by RevPerf, If a dealer hooks up to it to log into the MOCO for warranty, you may find they see a, shall we say, "custom" calibration and NOT the factory mapping as delivered.

There are ways to retain the stock ID yet use modded calibrations but that wouldn't be totally honest would it? But then again, either would be returning the bike to stock and taking it into the dealer for warranty work.
Just my $.02,
Bob

[Sc00ter]

Brian, I have a 2009 Street Glide with Cycle Shack slip-on's. If I did the EMS I would add a high flow air cleaner for now (plan to do a cam later).
My bike is still under warranty until July. My question is if I had to take my bike in for warranty work could I re-install the narrow band sensors, remove the O2 interpreter, install the stock air filter and pipes and be able to ride the bike ?

Since the ECM's stock calibration is reprogrammed by RevPerf, If a dealer hooks up to it to log into the MOCO for warranty, you may find they see a, shall we say, "custom" calibration and NOT the factory mapping as delivered.

There are ways to retain the stock ID yet use modded calibrations but that wouldn't be totally honest would it? But then again, either would be returning the bike to stock and taking it into the dealer for warranty work.
Just my $.02,
Bob

Not that I don't appreciate your point, Bob...  It's just that I had a vision of the "techs" working at the dealerships in my area...

[wurk_truk]

Brian, I have a 2009 Street Glide with Cycle Shack slip-on's. If I did the EMS I would add a high flow air cleaner for now (plan to do a cam later).
My bike is still under warranty until July. My question is if I had to take my bike in for warranty work could I re-install the narrow band sensors, remove the O2 interpreter, install the stock air filter and pipes and be able to ride the bike ?

To me?  That would be stealing.  Stealing from the MOCO, and some would say "Good', but stealing none-the-less.   Warranties are for STOCK bikes with stock equipment...  NOT modified bikes.  Just my opinion, here.

Steve Cole, etc... made GM REALLY clamp down on this (diesels) and nowadays... the first thing a dealer tech (GM) looks for is evidence of tuners or tuning.  GM techs, can look inside the ECM and tell if it has EVER had any tune besides the stock one.  Doesn't matter if the stock tune is in place now.  We have hashed this to death on Z06 forums, and I believe that flashing back to stock after something breaks is BS!!!

If you play... you pay.

The engine/tranny on my 09 bike has been without warranty since 09.