A Question on power

[Don D]

I have a good understanding of MBT and how the OEMs create the calibrations. That is for a stock motorcycle, plus has compromises. These bikes get things changed before they leave the dealership and later. In most cases that affects the timing requirements. The tuning devices available and the data acquisition equipment does not allow quantifiable data driven decisions to change the base map other than relying on timing decisions based on ION sensed detonation or trial and error with respect to WOT power hunting. I have not visited a dyno yet that had or is using the Dynojet torque module but that may have some possibilities.
The further I go down this road the more a professional dyno tune using a product such as Direct Link (no frills or self tuning even an option), just a tool to get to the ECU that is inexpensive to the end user and the professional services of a great tuner or a hands off solution like EMS become the most attractive to me, JMHO. I already own the TTS and that fits the bill too.

[BVHOG]

I have a good understanding of MBT and how the OEMs create the calibrations. That is for a stock motorcycle, plus has compromises. These bikes get things changed before they leave the dealership and later. In most cases that affects the timing requirements. The tuning devices available and the data acquisition equipment does not allow quantifiable data driven decisions to change the base map other than relying on timing decisions based on ION sensed detonation or trial and error with respect to WOT power hunting. I have not visited a dyno yet that had or is using the Dynojet torque module but that may have some possibilities.
The further I go down this road the more a professional dyno tune using a product such as Direct Link (no frills or self tuning even an option), just a tool to get to the ECU that is inexpensive to the end user and the professional services of a great tuner or a hands off solution like EMS become the most attractive to me, JMHO. I already own the TTS and that fits the bill too.

Direct link does have data logging capapbility from a wide band analog input or the factory 02 sensors themselves to build a VE map, on a dyno that is, unless you can figure out a way to carry all that chit on your bike going down the road while you read the data screen.

[Don D]

No Way, my point
Road tuning my bike is dangerous, no thanks, even so the timing there is no real shot at achieving any quantifiable gains and only thing I can do on the road is keep it from pinging by looking at logs and making corrections???
The options that appeal to me.
Have the bike tuned professionally or
Buy a plug & play device.
If I was in the buying seat again I would like the Direct Link because it is a cheaper hardware cost and has all the power a tuner needs to make the bike run well.
Sound right boss?

[FLTRI]

The options that appeal to me.
Have the bike tuned professionally or
Buy a plug & play device.

IMO/E plug and play systems are not comparable to custom tuning....at least from dyno measured results and my, as well as other SOP opinions.

If I was in the buying seat again I would like the Direct Link because it is a cheaper hardware cost and has all the power a tuner needs to make the bike run well.

Anyone dealt with D/L's customer service? If so have you found them to be timely in response and solutions?
Bob

[Don D]

Bob
If that is the case then I choose the tune. IME so far the Rev product is pretty decent from just riding it. It took all of 20 minutes to install and I was on the road. I will get it to a dyno when the ice melts here.
And the DL tech support, that is between the tuner and them, if the tuner sells and recomends that I would use it, if it is the SEST or TTS same deal. I would not tell a doctor what to use for products, LOL. Got to trust the man (or woman)
If the tuner is going to do his job I would not be the one to hog tie them. That is part of the problem in some cases.

[1FSTRK]

I have been asked what my point was, why I started this thread.
I originally thought that anyone that shopped high performance parts and then didn’t tune to get the most they could was crazy. I still think that.
The thing that I learned here is the many definitions of “the most they could”.

I guess I have taken for granted how fortunate I am to be able to drive down the road and by the time my coffee is gone I can be at a dyno shop for cars or go the other direction and be at the dyno shop for bikes. After reading this thread I also realize that because the shops I deal with are very good I just assumed everyone had the same option. Some of you have never seen anyone that came from a dyno tune that got their moneys worth and was truly happy. I on the other hand have never been anything but truly happy with my tunes.

I now see that if you have to use your whole vacation time and bike budget for the year just to go somewhere to get your bike tuned that it just is not worth it for a guy with pipes and a cam. It’s a little different for the guy with a big dollar all out street motor because then you have to look at the larger gains in street ability, power and money invested. I tend to build the latter and would plan my next bike trip to include a visit to one of the shops that are highly recommender here. It seems what I gained here was perspective. I see that “the most they could” should take into account budget and availability. Which is to say mostly budget as money will make everything available.

I do question the thinking behind not setting 100% as the goal. If you shoot for 90% and then because nothing is perfect you accept 90% of that you now are down to 81% of what you paid for.
My motor builder show me the first computer motor building program he used 20 some years ago and when he first got it when he would build a motor or flow heads he would go on the dyno and get 95-97% of what the computer was coming up with and he thought well that is good. He then showed me where one day he did some experimenting on a head and he punched in the numbers and the program came up with 105%. How could something flow 105% ? It either flows it or it doesn’t. Now with out going into which was wrong the bench or the program the bottom line was more was achievable and with the new air numbers the motor did make more power. And now the dyno didn’t agree with the program. Needless to say he stopped accepting the 100% that the program said was possible. He showed me my motor on that old program and it runs about 112% and I’m glad he didn’t just settle for getting 80-90% of the computer prediction back then and stop his testing.
It seems to me if you set your goal low enough you will achieve it ever time but that does not mean you won’t be disappointed.

[Don D]

One of the better of them is Pipemax. Problem is they don't have real world data from the VTwin world. If they did I would use it.

[phatbob]

I do not want to give up any HP. I paid good money for my parts and I put a lot of time into the build. That is why I started the thread "I was reading A Question of Power". I want as much HP as my build is possible of giving me! 

[1FSTRK]

I do not want to give up any HP. I paid good money for my parts and I put a lot of time into the build. That is why I started the thread "I was reading A Question of Power". I want as much HP as my build is possible of giving me! 

Now here is a man I can relate to

[FLTRI]

Nothing can beat a custom tune by an experienced tuner using the best tuning product for the job.
As always, JMHO,
Bob

[hogsty]

I have been asked what my point was, why I started this thread.
I originally thought that anyone that shopped high performance parts and then didn’t tune to get the most they could was crazy. I still think that.
The thing that I learned here is the many definitions of “the most they could”.

I guess I have taken for granted how fortunate I am to be able to drive down the road and by the time my coffee is gone I can be at a dyno shop for cars or go the other direction and be at the dyno shop for bikes. After reading this thread I also realize that because the shops I deal with are very good I just assumed everyone had the same option. Some of you have never seen anyone that came from a dyno tune that got their moneys worth and was truly happy. I on the other hand have never been anything but truly happy with my tunes.

I now see that if you have to use your whole vacation time and bike budget for the year just to go somewhere to get your bike tuned that it just is not worth it for a guy with pipes and a cam. It’s a little different for the guy with a big dollar all out street motor because then you have to look at the larger gains in street ability, power and money invested. I tend to build the latter and would plan my next bike trip to include a visit to one of the shops that are highly recommender here. It seems what I gained here was perspective. I see that “the most they could” should take into account budget and availability. Which is to say mostly budget as money will make everything available.

I do question the thinking behind not setting 100% as the goal. If you shoot for 90% and then because nothing is perfect you accept 90% of that you now are down to 81% of what you paid for.
My motor builder show me the first computer motor building program he used 20 some years ago and when he first got it when he would build a motor or flow heads he would go on the dyno and get 95-97% of what the computer was coming up with and he thought well that is good. He then showed me where one day he did some experimenting on a head and he punched in the numbers and the program came up with 105%. How could something flow 105% ? It either flows it or it doesn’t. Now with out going into which was wrong the bench or the program the bottom line was more was achievable and with the new air numbers the motor did make more power. And now the dyno didn’t agree with the program. Needless to say he stopped accepting the 100% that the program said was possible. He showed me my motor on that old program and it runs about 112% and I’m glad he didn’t just settle for getting 80-90% of the computer prediction back then and stop his testing.
It seems to me if you set your goal low enough you will achieve it ever time but that does not mean you won’t be disappointed.

Not knocking any tuners, especially the ones on this board, but how do I know I'm getting 100% from a dyno tune?  How do I know what 100% is?     

[1FSTRK]

I think you started this thread
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,33222.0.html

When you deal with the right tuner you'll know that everything is maximized.

[wolf_59]

My first dyno tune came with a cam change and 2-1 exhaust PCIII I was excited as a teenage boy in a whorehouse with a pocket full of cash, went and paid for it jumped on twisted the throttle and almost cried from the disappointment biggest POS I ever there a leg over until I hit 100% throttle then it came to life WTF
"READ" the PCIII instructions ( this always helps ) pulled up my tune that I paid for and found that the only throttle position that was tuned was the 100% position go figure. Took it back and explained that I don't ride at 100% throttle all the time and would like to have the rest tuned " Sure no problem come back in an hour "
2nd tune - bike ran better but at steady throttle at 25 - 35 mph it would surge so I started tweeking it myself from information from this forum and got it decent
3rd tune - went to Sturgis had a fellow with a mobil unit set up at the Full Throttle tune it bike ran GREAT @ 3300 elevation no surging good throttle response money well spent but got home @ 6000' and it didn't have near the power no fault of the tune (need bigger engine) 
Bought a manual and installed big bore 95" HTCC pistons and heads non-ported
4th Dyno tune -Took it back to dealer to have stage 2 download installed and let them convince me they had a top notch tuner and let them try again  bike ran ok not great except wide open throttle still surging same as before and fuel milage was terrible  ( no more dealer tunes for me )
Now have upgraded to 05 ecm, TTS with o2 sensors and Vtuned (Best money spent) and it runs better than it ever has, no more surging at steady TPS smooth transitions great fuel milage and now have the ability to make any other changes that I want without having to go to the local dealer for a tune that I know will not be right
Minimum 400 miles to find a competent tuner from here and even if it's a guaranteed tune if something in the tune changes that's still 800 mi. round trip
I am sure that I'm not getting every ounce of tq/hp out of my bike but I'm not racing it, I just ride it and the way it runs now I really enjoy it

[hogsty]

That's my point.  Choosing a tuner is a crap shoot.  I've paid for a tune by a tuner (recommended by many) on this board and didn't feel I got the most I could.  After a lot of research, and a lot of work, I found my assumption correct.  After a return to the dyno for a "fixed" tune, I still felt the same way.  My bike ran much better after I tuned it myself.  Even after my return visit the timing tables weren't touched, idled like crap, piss poor fuel mileage, and on and on.  I should have listened to Doc and saved my money.

So, before I go and pay a tuner I have to know the following:

How much power is my build capable of producing, so I know whether I'm actually getting 100% or not
Is the person doing the tune actually capable of getting 100% out of my motor?
Can he do it right the first time?  (My time is money too, having to go back really irks me)
Is the extra 2 HP that he will get out of my motor worth the $400 and my time for an entire day?