cylinder head shoot out

[Sonny S.]

so, do all heads respond the same to all cams?     do all cams require the same combination of intake and exhaust flow rates?     

poor flowing heads require a cam that complements the poor flow. quite a few guys making a living doing this.
good flowing heads work to there potential with a good cam that matches there ability to flow.
this thread kinda makes me crazy LOL ahh hell there are two or three going strong right now that make me crazy
I dont see how this could possibly prove a thing. because there is no good way to gauge,unless we are just talking WOT hp/tq. numbers. then again with a 13.5 AFR limitation on all heads. some would work and some wouldnt. talking WOT numbers. so many variables on tuning diff heads,even on the same exact bike/build/dyno.
some dont require fuel to make good power,and some need quite a bit. remember we are measuring AFR in the exhaust pipe. not the head.
good combustion /bad combustion

....all of it !

[sbcharlie]

i can not believe you guys on this forum. there are few of you that want always talk air flow and port velocity. when you were kids and were cub scouts were you afraid to enter the pine wood derby. i have no tricks up my sleeve on this post. there is lot of talk on budget heads let really see what they are. a few weeks ago on this board everyone got into a pissing match about posted airflow. i thought the guy that presented his work did a great job. it was and is very informative. it really sad to see that a lot of you head porter are scared to step up to the pump and have little contest. you all talk the talk but that about it. the head i will enter is safety ported and i assure you will not damage a fragile harley twin cam crankshaft. short block charlie. PS when i was a kid i enter the pine wood derby and lost, my son lost also. my grandson won.

[Hillside Motorcycle]

Cylinder Head Shootout for bargain basement heads?
Really? Hmmm...
Let me guess, the guy proposing the shootout makes money selling low buck heads, and sets up the parameters/rules for the "shootout" to work with exactly the type of head work he does...
That should be fun-as exciting and informative as watching paint dry or watching a couple 13 second land yachts
drag race against each other down the boulevard-
Maybe instead of laminating dyno sheets, guys can laminate flow number charts? Dueling flowcharts anyone?
Or better yet, both!
That way, we could just whip them out in a parking lot and never have to see how good a motor combo really is-or if the guy knows how to ride, or if his bike can really fly, or if he is FOS...
Just show the big numbers, cause' everyone knows big flow numbers prove big power right?
Man, that sure would be cool.
Flow #'s in and of themselves don't mean squat-From Rockers to heads all the way to the pipe, it's all one unit...

Paul,
Your mean!!
Scott

[Sonny S.]

>>>Flow #'s in and of themselves don't mean squat<<<




Oh, Paul....yes you are     

[Big Dan]

I won the Pinewood Derby and proudly display the trophy to this day.

[hollywood63]

>>>Flow #'s in and of themselves don't mean squat<<<

I have only seen velocity or words meaning mentioned a few times. I think if the test were to happen not only should cfm be measured so should velocity.  No?

[wfolarry]

i can not believe you guys on this forum. there are few of you that want always talk air flow and port velocity. when you were kids and were cub scouts were you afraid to enter the pine wood derby. i have no tricks up my sleeve on this post. there is lot of talk on budget heads let really see what they are. a few weeks ago on this board everyone got into a pissing match about posted airflow. i thought the guy that presented his work did a great job. it was and is very informative. it really sad to see that a lot of you head porter are scared to step up to the pump and have little contest. you all talk the talk but that about it. the head i will enter is safety ported and i assure you will not damage a fragile harley twin cam crankshaft. short block charlie. PS when i was a kid i enter the pine wood derby and lost, my son lost also. my grandson won.

You come up with some solid guidelines & I'll join in. I'll even send a head with little stock valves that will kick all your asses. No fear here.

Don't even get me started on the Pinewood Derby. Another crooked show run by thieves that don't like being called on it either.

[PanHeadRed]

Get um Chucky! I don't play the price war and/or do the "budget" thing so I am going to assume I am out, but if my price is competitive I will join in.

With that said I still offer to do the flow testing, parameters can be set by committee, what ever.

>I'll even send a head with little stock valves that will kick all your asses.<

Larry, for some reason I believe you.

I love these threads.

[Sonny S.]

Heck, go for it Red !  Just cuz it's not how you chose to sell a Product, doesn't mean you can't enter a competition of Head Porters. We can find someone who is not in The Business to handle the testing. Actually, that's probably a better idea anyway.

[Jeffd]

Heck, go for it Red !  Just cuz it's not how you chose to sell a Product, doesn't mean you can't enter a competition of Head Porters. We can find someone who is not in The Business to handle the testing. Actually, that's probably a better idea anyway.

I think PHR is betting on WFO larry.

[Barrett]

When I look in the dyno section I don't really see anything that stands out as much as the talk on how good they are.

[autoworker]

Can I put my $ on two porters?
They probably both know who they are!

[Sonny S.]

When I look in the dyno section I don't really see anything that stands out as much as the talk on how good they are.

Stock parts, valve job, port work, and milled.....I got my moneys worth and then some
BTW....yes they look good on a flow bench too .....right Red ? 

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,24049.0.html

[Dan]

I am disappointed with the direction that this post took. HD sells out of the box heads as well as other companies. Flow numbers don't tell the whole story, but for a budget test why not let that be the measuring stick? Many of you advertise your services here and post your dyno sheets, so what are you worried about? The way I see it is the guys willing to participate are the ones I may be more likely to consider for future work.

[mayor]

man I love these thread!   

[PanHeadRed]

Seen a lot of um, and you know me, I call it like it is.

[prodrag1320]

i can not believe you guys on this forum. there are few of you that want always talk air flow and port velocity. when you were kids and were cub scouts were you afraid to enter the pine wood derby. i have no tricks up my sleeve on this post. there is lot of talk on budget heads let really see what they are. a few weeks ago on this board everyone got into a pissing match about posted airflow. i thought the guy that presented his work did a great job. it was and is very informative. it really sad to see that a lot of you head porter are scared to step up to the pump and have little contest. you all talk the talk but that about it. the head i will enter is safety ported and i assure you will not damage a fragile harley twin cam crankshaft. short block charlie. PS when i was a kid i enter the pine wood derby and lost, my son lost also. my grandson won.

said in an earlier post ,ide be in

[1FSTRK]

Do you pick a cam by the one with the most lift?
The cam specs are listed all over the net and yet the question of which cam is asked here over and over. All this would do is give a new list of numbers to argue over. Even if you do peak flow and velocity there is area under the curve, swirl, tumble, reverse flow, overlap flow and more, so how do you perform a comparative test that means anything in real life. Back to the cam, they list all the lift, timing duration and so on then someone wants to now accelerate rate. 
The true value of what a head will do for you is found when a customer tells the cylinder head shop what he hopes to achieve and the shop delivers a head that does it.

[mayor]

The true value of what a head will do for you is found when a customer tells the cylinder head shop what he hopes to achieve and the shop delivers a head that does it.

not according to my friend Red.    

[partycrasher]

 "budget" build heads with the least amount of work  is like asking for the lowest cost plastic surgery....not sexy.....just sayin!

[Don D]

What Paul Morris and 1FSTRK said

Charlie
I betcha your old Scotsman with the large intake would outperform this new CNC seat head, real world, those were awesome and with cams that were less than revolutionary, all respect intended

Carry on

[Sonny S.]

>>>The true value of what a head will do for you is found when a customer tells the cylinder head shop what he hopes to achieve and the shop delivers a head that does it.<<<

BINGO !! 

here is the build.....give me the heads that would be best.
NOT :  Dear Customer, here are your heads...you figure out the rest of the parts...good luck 

[1FSTRK]

What Paul Morris and 1FSTRK said

Charlie
I betcha your old Scotsman with the large intake would outperform this new CNC seat head, real world, those were awesome and with cams that were less than revolutionary, all respect intended

Carry on

I would doubt that. The cnc allows a very custom contoured seat to be cut even if no port or chamber work is done. Where it gains is production speed thru repeatability. The same can be
done by any head shop but after the seat is cut hand work have to be done and confirmed.This is time consuming and costly. I really don't doubt that SBC's seat only head would be at the very least tided for first place in a flow bench comparison but we are back to what does that actually mean to the guy riding the finished bike?

[Don D]

but we are back to what does that actually mean to the guy riding the finished bike?
Yep, heck yes that guy the customer that spends the money!

The same can be
done by any head shop but after the seat is cut hand work have to be done and confirmed

Sorry to say not exactly so, or lets say not with form tooling and conventional seat and guide machines. All cuts are done by plunge cut on those where the CNC can single point with a side feed and continuously synchronized  x,y,and z movements which create shapes not possible by conventional means.

I have been on these forums for a long time and problem I see is this reinvention process trying to hatch. Problem is the power levels are the same, relatively speaking, (actually lower but in some cases that is drivetrain related). We saw new levels when a 95" motor could hit high teens with regularity when Roland came out with the Wild Things line, and those heads by RD Performance are not airflow champions but they GET ER DONE. How could that be? There has been very little mention here about exhaust, or air speed. That does matter and is an important factor??

"It is a general rule that when testing for air speeds at 28" depression, once you are over 300 fps, power actually starts going the other direction. The idea is to get the whole port working, not just small areas of the port showing very high velocities. In the high end of cylinder head work, porters spend great amounts of time actually trying to slow the air speed down when it is too high. When air speeds are too high, it means the whole port is not normally working together properly and/or the port CSA is not correct."

Not part of this test??

[Big Dan]

This is from a different forum. Intake port on a Buell that runs on the salt. Done by Johnson Engine Technology out of Rhode Island. I've never seen one with the "table top"on the raised floor area, but I've also not seen a lot of ported heads of any kind. It's pretty wild looking to me; what say you pros?