Picking base cal for TTS.

[wolf_59]

If you are not a professional tuner where you have a library of tunes set aside for different builds this is where you want to start 
From the TTS Tuning Guide
2.5. Select and Set-up the MT7 Calibration
As a general rule, use the following selection priority if your exact combination is not found. This works for most builds.
1.
Match the vehicle year and model to get the correct calibration level (i.e.176, 205)
2.
Match the camshaft selection (if not stock) as close a possible
3.
Match the head configuration (if not stock)
4.
Match the exhaust configuration

[1FSTRK]

 I think you'll find it is trial and error. What you’re trying to do is match the map sensor part that is built into every base cal to the pulses in your intake manifold. The cam timing is a good way if the cam was the only difference from bike to bike. You’re not just using a different cam but different exhaust system, intake volume, and a bunch of ratios that affect things like displacement vs exhaust cross sectional area. It has been stated that you can not use just intake closing, you have to look at both intake and exhaust events. This comes down to an educated guess and the guy with the most education on guessing with this system is the guy that invented it.

Get your info together call him he will tell you what he wants you to do, do it and you will be on your way. I think the problem is you can't put experience or gut instinct in an instruction manual.

This is being stated in this thread http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,34915.0.html#lastPost

[FLTRI]

I think you'll find it is trial and error. What you’re trying to do is match the map sensor part that is built into every base cal to the pulses in your intake manifold. The cam timing is a good way if the cam was the only difference from bike to bike. You’re not just using a different cam but different exhaust system, intake volume, and a bunch of ratios that affect things like displacement vs exhaust cross sectional area. It has been stated that you can not use just intake closing, you have to look at both intake and exhaust events. This comes down to an educated guess and the guy with the most education on guessing with this system is the guy that invented it.

Get your info together call him he will tell you what he wants you to do, do it and you will be on your way. I think the problem is you can't put experience or gut instinct in an instruction manual.This is being stated in this thread http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,34915.0.html#lastPost

Best info yet!!! Thanks Paul!
With this known, how can we believe canned maps can be close if ALL components are not exactly the same specs? How can anyone simply install a calibration and deem it close?...unless O2 sensors are used to constantly work to adjust and readjust VEs into line with targets as the engine runs.

I feel it is much better to get the VEs right then use O2 sensors to adjust for variances in fuel quality rather than used to get out-of-sinc VEs in line as this must occur continually and cannot be permanently learned with the present ECM.

Just my $.02,
Bob

[timtoolman]

Thanks  looks like ill have to  do the " pick whats close" as far as components go,  seems the bigger the build the harder it is to figure up a map,  Its a lot simpler when just a few parts get changed!    however  i did see a couple of tts  maps on the kuryakan  site that matches the closest .  Time to play !! until tuning/dyno time

  Just made a appt with my local tuner at zepka harley in johnstown,  They start from a zero map and build one, takes 7 hrs,   Tuner was trained by doc, So it should be a good one. 

Lets go mayor  its your turn to do it know,  call  kim

[lonewolf]

They start from a zero map and build one, takes 7 hrs,   

What's a zero map? I thought you have to start from a base calibration.

[mayor]

just made a appt with my local tuner at zepka harley in johnstown,  They start from a zero map and build one, takes 7 hrs,   Tuner was trained by doc, So it should be a good one. 

Lets go mayor  its your turn to do it know,  call  kim

my bike is already there.      ...but not for a tune.     going to try v-tuning first. 

did you talk to Brian?  don't forget to give them a memory stick to save the run files on. 

[whittlebeast]

I think you'll find it is trial and error. What you’re trying to do is match the map sensor part that is built into every base cal to the pulses in your intake manifold. The cam timing is a good way if the cam was the only difference from bike to bike. You’re not just using a different cam but different exhaust system, intake volume, and a bunch of ratios that affect things like displacement vs exhaust cross sectional area. It has been stated that you can not use just intake closing, you have to look at both intake and exhaust events. This comes down to an educated guess and the guy with the most education on guessing with this system is the guy that invented it.

Get your info together call him he will tell you what he wants you to do, do it and you will be on your way. I think the problem is you can't put experience or gut instinct in an instruction manual.

This is being stated in this thread http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,34915.0.html#lastPost

That is one of the critical Harley Hidden Tables I have always wanted opened up.

AW

[timtoolman]

waiting for them to get back to me  about scheduling what day to bring it over and try to get penndot to cooperate  with a day off  for me to do that. Gotta shoot for that  120/120

[timtoolman]

From what the tuner said  a zero map is a map with just basic  stock map with no modifications easier to start  the tune that way,

[1FSTRK]

Thanks  looks like ill have to  do the " pick whats close" as far as components go,  seems the bigger the build the harder it is to figure up a map,  Its a lot simpler when just a few parts get changed!    however  i did see a couple of tts  maps on the kuryakan  site that matches the closest .  Time to play !! until tuning/dyno time

  Just made a appt with my local tuner at zepka harley in johnstown,  They start from a zero map and build one, takes 7 hrs,   Tuner was trained by doc, So it should be a good one. 

Lets go mayor  its your turn to do it know,  call  kim

They can build a ve table but they still have to pick a base cal to start with. Make sure they sample to find the best one before you pay them to build a ve table on the wrong base cal

[1FSTRK]

He thinks that TTS is like powercomander where you can star with a stock zero map and that is wrong.
TTS has to load a base calibration and each one includes different changeable and non changeable data. You have a custom combination that will require some testing of base cals before any map tuning is performed. CALL STEVE COLE with the way his system is now set up he is the only one that can help get this figured out with any speed at all. Then go get it tuned on the base cal Steve recommended

[FLTRI]

Guys, picking a base calibration is not nuclear science. You take your best guess and work with it.

That said, if you find the base calibration you picked per instructions doesn't seem to tune or respond to changes without issues (less than 10% of the time IME) simply try another base calibration and use the copy/paste tables feature to change/build the tuning tables to what you tuned in the first base calibration.

This should get you close to targets but retuning may/will be necessary depending on base cal differences and build complexity (engine size, cams, compression, porting, exhaust,etc). Ie: a 103ci - 10:1 - TW5 - stock TB and injectors bike will be easier and quicker to get to targets than a 124ci - 11.5:1 - TW9f - 62mmTB - SE injectors

Simply put, there are so many build assumptions that must be made to build a calibration that one calibration can work better than another.

Note: There have been a whole slew of crappy tuning files disseminated over the years but most have disappeared or replaced with corrected calibrations.

Bob

[timtoolman]

Well  yes  ive used pc  ii, iii and the v  so i guess i do think to much towards a power commander way of thinking, im glad u corrected me.  yes this tts is new to me,  and i do have a call in to Steve Cole for a answer for the correct base calibration to start off, for the tuner to use,  thanks
gotta learn  and start somewhere

[FLTRI]

Be sure you have all your build specs including which throttle body and injectors when you call Steve for recommendations.
Bob

[timtoolman]

Thanks  Bob  I will

[timtoolman]

Busy  day  talked to Steve Cole and got a good base cal.to go off for the tuner,  And called the tuner at the local Harley shop  for a appt. next week for a dyno tune  with  100.00 off on the tune (300.00)  takes about 9 hours and they even drive 50 mile and pick it up.  Now that's pretty good service in my op. 


Now  the question is what slip on muffler to use with my Fulsac x pipe , My  Reinhart's  or Full-Sac 2" slip on's  have to take both over and find out. 

[1FSTRK]

Busy  day  talked to Steve Cole and got a good base cal.to go off for the tuner,  And called the tuner at the local Harley shop  for a appt. next week for a dyno tune  with  100.00 off on the tune (300.00)  takes about 9 hours and they even drive 50 mile and pick it up.  Now that's pretty good service in my op.   Now  the question is what slip on muffler to use with my Fulsac x pipe , My  Reinhart's  or Full-Sac 2" slip on's  have to take both over and find out. 

What base cal did you end up with for your build?

[timtoolman]

its  a secret!  no  just kidding  he recommended Y2A05  base cal.  i might go with my reinhart  slips   both are close with fulsac being 1 in. smaller in diameter in baffle core but reinharts  sound great with the woods 400-6 cam.  And im sure can be tuned very well as the tuner recommends

[1FSTRK]

Do you have all your build specs listed here some place?

[timtoolman]

Hillside 107 cuin  10.5.1 comp. hillside stage 4 heads with  1.800  intake port, woods 400-6 cams, HPI  54mm 2 piece t/b,  1.800 runners. with s.e.5.3 inj.,with the manifold side port matched to the heads ,  doherty p/p backing plate with hillsides big green a/f.,  fulsac 2-1-2 x header pipe,  woods springs in heads and woods lifters.  s&s  p-rods    mufflers pending

[1FSTRK]

Thanks

[rbabos]

I've been meaning to mention this before but kept forgetting. During my tuning exploits I've tried about 2 different maps that had been tuned for a similar build as mine. Both ran worse than the base cal. Bottom line is always start fresh with a virgin calibration.
Ron

[FLTRI]

I've been meaning to mention this before but kept forgetting. During my tuning exploits I've tried about 2 different maps that had been tuned for a similar build as mine. Both ran worse than the base cal. Bottom line is always start fresh with a virgin calibration.
Ron

...Which is the precise reason when folks ask me for a break-in map from a "similar" build I have to explain why I don't feel comfortable with doing it. If it didn't work out and the engine ran too lean (or too rich) and causes damage who would feel responsible? Me, but maybe that's just me.

Even if the engine is exactly the same, by part number but the exhaust is different for example changing from Rinehart tru-duals to a Fatcat 2into1 the calibration would be miles off in the <2500 range. So bad that the engine would heave and cough just trying to accelerate from 1500-3000 from nowhere near enough fuel to make it happy.

Bob

[wurk_truk]

Here is Rons run file 

http://www.box.net/shared/pntuicrnhl

Here is notepad note

http://www.box.net/shared/q0t54p8fgs

[Steve Cole]

Well let's review the data, only took a year to get some. If you look at the majority of the run it's above where closed loop learn shuts off. The only areas that are below are after the vehicle speed and tps both drop down. Engine Speed never goes above 2500 RPM and TPS never goes above 14.1%! The 50 mph area is an average of 30kPa and 7.7% tps. My bet would be the road was flat if not a little down hill as you can see the MAP drop with the dropping tps. The next area runs 33 mph, 4% tps and the MAP is below at 25 kPa again I have never seen a bike go 33 mph at such little throttle unless is was going down hill a slight amount which would be considered decel. The next area is 20 mph, 3.3% tps and 22 kPa below the learn shut off. This repeats itself through out the run and when you get to the end where the bike is at idle the RPM is about 1000, MAP 28 kPa and 0% tps. So with no load and no throttle it runs 28 kPa and if you make the kPa go below that point you are in a decel since the bike is pushing the engine. The highest tps reading in this whole run is 14.1% and the average is less than 5%!

All of this could have be handled long ago if Rbabos had done what he was asked to do and provided some simple test data.