96" 48h cams DBW base cal for TTS

[mayor]

I just returned from a road trip which involved 600 miles of mostly 4 lane riding each way over several mountain ranges, the bike averaged 40-41 mpg cruising at elevated hi-way speeds.  This was running one-up, but fully loaded with a weeks worth of crap.  I'm not unhappy with this at all considering.  I do think I can improve milage though.  There were times I was cruising at 3k rpm and above, which likely meant I was running in a richer open loop mode:

I'm thinking that the cell at 3,500 rpm and 65 kPa is probably influencing the desired afr around the 3,000 rpm crusing speeds.  I'm going to try a quick data run when it's not raining to similate my hi-way speeds to see if I'm in closed loop or open loop there.  Since the airs moving pretty fast at XXmph, I think I'll be plenty safe running the afr leaner. 

[mayor]

I ran a data run yesterday to confirm my suspicions that I was running in open loop at elevated hi-way speeds, and also to check my timing with warmer temps. 

first:
this confirmed my suspicions regarding the bike running in open loop at the elevated speeds:

I feel pretty comfortable with the vtuning I did, so I'm not worried about running in open loop...I just think at those speeds there's not much concern with running slightly leaner. 

...so I adjusted the AFR table to be in closed loop in the surrounding areas:


I then made another data recording:

This confirmed that I'm now in closed loop at in that range.   

second:
during my first data recording I had a touch of timing being pulled around 4,900 at 100% tps.  This just happend to coincide with an area that I adjusted based on my dyno run information.   

here was the reported afr on the front cylinder based on the dyno sniffer:


here's is how I interpretted the data:


I used the above more of a guide line since there is likely a lag between the actual and the collected data, so I just tried to make sure the changes I made followed the trends.  Here's what I ended up with:

The area that I had the timing being pulled in my first data recording was an area that I elevated the Ve's in the 4,500 rpm range and reduced the Ve's in the 5,000 rpm ranges.     so I went back and made some corrections before run two.  I tested the area a little different in run two (had the PE mode kick in), but I didn't see any timing being pulled there...although the PE mode richened up the AFR at that location.....I'm leaving it as is at this point though..

[FLTRI]

Just curious but it appears most ofl this discussion is about timing/detonation issues but only posting fuel tables?

Why not post timing tables?

Are we using fuel to correct timing issues?
Bob
PS - Have I missed something.

[mayor]

Just curious but it appears most of this discussion is about timing/detonation issues but only posting fuel tables?

Why not post timing tables?

Are we using fuel to correct timing issues?
Bob
PS - Have I missed something.

yes, you missed something.     If you read through my comments, I haven't had to account for timing being pulled for the better part of my mt8 tuning until the most recent case....and in this particular case the variables were changed (Front VE tables).  The latest bunch of VE adjustments on the front pipe was not to correct for timing being pulled, but rather to account for AFR information that was acquired from my dyno run (in response to reply #243).  I used that information to adjust the VE's, but since I the TTS does not check the AFR at 100 kPa I had to guess that my adjustments to the VE's weren't quite right since I now had timing being pulled after the VE changes I made . 

I was actually running the latest batch of data recordings to test what my desired AFR was at elevated hi-way speeds (see reply #255).   I was just using the tools to determine if I was running the most efficient at elevated hi-way speeds, and found that I wasn't....so I made an adjustment, and tried again. 

I've posted correction methods using both ve's and timing through out this thread, but I used the tools I had available through the datamaster software and what I was seeing in the calibrations to make a good educated guess as to how to fix a particular area.  I've checked, rechecked, and rechecked again the timing and posted the cals.  I've tested my timing initially in the cooler late winter temps, while on vacation at Myrtle (at Steve's request to try gas from a different area), and most recently back at home in warmer conditions while I was checking closed loop/open loop at 3k rpm under cruise conditions. I did remove a touch of timing in as noted in reply #251 before my first data recording down at Myrtle, but added all but the 1,125 rpm range back in and reran the recording since there was no timing being pulled down there.  To date I have run 26 data recordings to verify timing. 

see...it was a simple misunderstanding, you just weren't reading what I've been posting.     If you read the posts that have the fuel and afr charts in them, you will see why I was posting those charts instead of timing.  I could be misunderstanding how the timing charts work, but I don't think I can adjust them to get my bike to run in more efficient closed loop at 80 mph instead of open.      

[FLTRI]

OK Mike,
I just went back and refreshed myself. You were right. I guess CRS has set in for the winter...wait this is summer? Not in California watching the races on TV cause it's not warm enough to want to ride. Maybe tomorrow.
CRS is a Bitch

Again great job Mike!!

Anyone interested in the Devil's details can certainly get 'em here.

Thank the big guy we don't have to rely on myself or Steve to diplomatically explain this stuff.

Bob

[exrn]

Mayor - I have been following your 96” 48h thread, and would like to ask some questions regarding your last cal, in reply #251. I have been retuning my 2010 Ultra to cater  for new  mufflers, and decided to use the MT8 files, and after over 30 v-tune runs including EGR, I am now at the timing datarun stage, especially as we are forecast for 70* weather this weekend (at last). Most of the questions relate to your timing settings.
1 â€" You have Throttle Blade Control changes for the 2.5/5 positions. Why did you decide to have these?.
2 â€" AFR - you have 13.9 at 4500rpm/30-60kpa, and then 13.2 at 5000rpm and above, what criteria did you use for these settings?.
3 - Adaptive Knock Retard â€" you still have 1 for 40kpa, are you using this for Datascans, or leaving it for normal running?.
4 â€" Main Spark Tables, both cylinders, you have added timing for various rpm/kpa cells. What criteria did  you use for these values and cells, or just added timing until retard occurred?.
5 â€" What rule of thumb do you use for resolving pulled timing?. Most seems to be by adding fuel, I tried to get a pattern like:
In closed loop=pull timing: one cylinder in open loop, VE, AFR then pull timing.
Thanks for any advice you can give. I can follow most of the theory, but some of the reasoning is over my head.
Many thanks also for all the information you and others have posted in these tuning threads. Invaluable to amateurs like myself.

[mayor]

good questions exrn, but I'm afraid that the answers may be disappointing.   

1. I adjusted those to because I thought maybe the base settings were slightly conservative, but truth is I could not tell a difference after making the adjustment.   

2.  The 13.9 at 4,500 was actually original to the base cal.  I set my richest settings to 13.2, since that is a nice fit between power and economy.  The window of opportunity for afr at wide open throttle is pretty wide, so settings in the 12.8-13.5 are not that uncommon.  I figured that 13.2 gives me a good +/- margin of error in case my heavier throttle open loop ve's are not exactly perfect.  If you look at the posted dyno sheet on this thread and the posted afr information, the broad margin of error becomes evident in relation to the WOT AFR. 

3.  I’m leaving it on, for two reasons: first that is an area that I added a good bit of timing, second I see no ill affects with leaving it on.   

4.  I use a lot of SWAG to determine initial advances based on previous experiences with other tuning systems, then I let the bike tell me what it likes.  For more information read this thread: http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,39654.0.html

5.  see the linked thread on question #4 

Many thanks also for all the information you and others have posted in these tuning threads. Invaluable to amateurs like myself.

keep in mind when reviewing what I post, I'm an amateur as well.    I've just been lucky enough to pick up on great information that's been posted here on this forum over the years from some of the best pro-tuner's in the business, and some pretty gifted amateurs as well. 

[exrn]

Many thanks for the replies, far from disappointing, informative.
I did see the linked timing topic get registered, a coincidence of timing (no pun intended) so will follow that one. I am sure it will produce some good responses. Whilst v-tunes are fairly intuitive, timing seems to be feel and experience. 

[mayor]

to update this thread, I was having some audible ping around 2,700-3,000 rpm's while cruising in 6th gear when I was traveling steep inclines.  I first noticed this in July when my wife and I were coming back from vacation while traveling I-68 in western MD.  I had it happen again yesterday while riding with Sonny S, so I decided to do a data recording to see what was going on.  The scandata recording verified what I was hearing:

The knock retard was happening at very high MAP at in a lower rpm range, which not the easiest to reproduce which is likely how I missed it with all the previous data runs.   

Andy (whittlebeast) talked me into trying MegaLogViewer, so I converted my data recording to the proper format and viewed the scatter plots in that program as well:

using this format, the data is easier to sort which helps when looking for patterns.  I have the right scatter graph set up in a way that shows where the knock retard was happening in relation to rpm and speed.  The patterns that develop is a representation of each gear.  This charts shows the knock was occurring in 6th gear (the other than blue dots are where timing was being pulled), which makes sense since it was occurring in hi-map (load) ranges.  This is a good example of how gear selection dictates load and potential timing issues.  I probably have plenty of data recordings showing that this area was fine, but my guess is it was in a lower gear so the timing being spent was a quicker travel through which did not trigger a knock retard response.  Based on the left side scatter plot, I would say that I hit as much of the MAP range as I could in the affected rpm this time. 

The rear was slightly more advanced than the front at this location (0.75 degrees, based on adding the 2 degree knock retard to what the timing is on the rear), so I started making corrections by copying the front timing at 2,500-3k and then tweaked from there. I like the timing to have smooth transitions, so I generally tweak over a broader area to avoid sudden changes. This is what I ended up removing:


I confirmed these changes with another data recording, and there was no timing being pulled.  I am going to do another run tonight though, since the threat of rain last evening limited to a 15 mile radius from my house.     My suspicions is I will need to reduce the timing a touch more, but I want to test this to confirm.

The interesting note is I am now running very similar timing as what the base cal was set up for at the 80 kPa columns at the affected rpms:


The scan data recording can be found here:
http://www.box.net/shared/8z9ea0mtgltn205uskoi

the scan data recording converted to .csv be found here (for MLV viewing):

http://www.box.net/shared/o8tid03xuuxftdfv6jvt

I'm hoping to test this again tonight to see if the timing changes did indeed fix the pinging issue.  For some reason I think I added to the ve's in this tps area a while back, so I am going to see if I can reduce those safely as well (after a test to confirm timing). 

[hrdtail78]

Mayor,

It will probably take a smart guy like you to dumb this down for me to understand.  Glad you bought MVL and are playing with it.  Couple of queastion on the MLV though.

1.  How does engine temp come into play?

2.  How does desired AF come into play?

3. What was acual AF?

4. How did you calibrate your VE's at 88kpa in the first place?

OK maybe more than a couple.

ps 
I TTT for a lurking buddy that is figuring this stuff out on the street.  I have tried to be helpful but there is some different things going on that I don't deal with.  He will get it with both of our help.  I'm going to owe him a tune anyway.

[mayor]

well, I'm not sure how much I can dumb down...since I really don't know much about how it works myself.  So far I've just been playing with the easy stuff.  The charts I posted was about as far as I got so far.   

I think the questions your asking has more to do with the o2 voltage readings that Sporty48 and Andy's been playing with.  That's the advanced course, I'm still on the kindergarden level.    I've only been viewing simple data at this point.  I'm still not sold on the value of using MLV for pro-tuning.  I just don't know that it's better than just using your sniffer on the dyno. I guess sampling rate would be faster, but I don't think the ve's have to be absolutely spot on to give a smooth response.  I might play more with the MLV later, but right now my laptop has been giving me fits and causing the TTS flash to look up in the middle of a flash.  It probably goes without saying, but that's not good.  Until I get that figured out, I'm trying to limit my ecm flashing. 

The one I can answer is question #4.  I only used the vtune data to populate the ve's, then used the data recording to see if the knock retard was getting a trigger when the bike went open loop in that area.  The area that was pulling timing was on the rear, which I didn't have sniffed when I did the dyno run.  The front was off a good bit at wide open, so I would suspect the rear is too. 

After two test runs with no timing being pulled after my last timing adjustments (from the previous post), I decided to try reducing the ve's in the problem area by 2.5 VE points (which still left that area with more than the vtune suggested)...and it pinged right there during my test ride.  I decided to add that back.   I just did this tonight, so I haven't tested to see if the ping is gone again. 

[pauly]

Could these tables be appropriate on a non DBW bike... Like an 07 model 96B?
Thanks
Pauly

[mayor]

if you are asking if you can import the timing tables, no they are different.  If you are asking about the other tables, no they are different as well. 

if you are asking if you can mimic similar timing in a '07 96b, that depends on the bike/build etc.  Keep in mind what I posted was mostly the offsets (amount of change) from the base cal timing, and the base cal timing can be very different depending on the base cal so I would not suggest trying the same adjustments to your base timing. 

[wurk_truk]

I just, for the very first time, looked at my MLV, today.  The new "HD" version lets me take my original data logs from Datamaster and opens them right up.  Pretty slick.

[hrdtail78]

TTT