OT: still on heating for hog barn

[Buckwheat]

Just read skeets question on kerosene heaters.  I'm still looking for
a heater for the hog barn that doesn't cause moisture build up
on the metal parts of the Ultra ( and every thing in the room)
Will a kerosene heater cause condensation and is there any problem
with having an open flame in the shop. I don't really use flammable
stuff except the gas in the bike.Lowes has a kerosene heater for 129.00.

[truck]

I don't think there is such a thing because any time you have cold metal and warm air touching each other you get sweat.

That 129 dollar heater is probably too small to heat a hog barn.

[bouncingVman]

This is just a suggestion... but you might be able to find a used forced air gas furnace to use in there for around the same price?? Just a thought. I'm thinking the kind where the moisture from the furnace would be vented to the outside. Run it off of propane. You would have to ask around to find one... but they're out there. At least where I live... 

Now in the same respect as to what was mentioned before... you will probably see condensation from warm air touching cold metal... until the metal gets warmed up... no mater what you use. Just some thoughts... hope they are useful.

-BVM

[PoorUB]

Any portable heater adds water vapor to the space. Best bet is a permanent heater thats vents outside. Reznor model UDAP, or a Modine Hot Dawg are good heaters, or like another post, look for a used house furnace on install it, vented properly.

[Big Dan]

Any portable heater adds water vapor to the soce.

Unfortunately, that is untrue. Use some form of radiant heat and you'll have no problems. Radiant heat heats objects, which in turn heat the air around them.

[Dakota]

  Combustion creates H2O.  If you don't vent the heater to the outside the H2O produced is left inside the building. That's why you get moisture collecting on cold surfaces, although if you keep it warm you can eliminate it.  I used a vented heater in my garage just to keep the H2O down as I store guns there in addition to my bikes & other things.

  You will also get moisture collecting on cold surfaces when the outside air warms up considerably, but a lot of it is due to the fact that warm air holds more moisture than cold air (actually it's all due to that) but usually when you get warm air in the winter time it's because the air flow is from the south and contains much higher moisture levels than what you normally have in the colder climates.  Then the air is cooled and can't hold that much moisture so it condenses on whatever is cold.

[mark61]

   If you get yourself a hot air furnace that vents out side it does dry the air out. Lots of them have water tanks for evaporation because they make the indoor air too dry for most people.  Look for one out of a mobil home/ trailer. The hot air comes out of the bottom of them and blows along the floor where your bike sits. If you just want to keep the bike dry from condensation---cover it with something other than plastic and put a trouble light with 60 watt bulb under the bike and cover. Many a welding rod storage "oven made from just an old fridge with a light on all the time inside of it to keep the rods dry.

mark61

[Big Dan]

Heating (or removing heat) from air does not alter, can not alter the amount of moisture in the air. What is altered is relative humidity. I spent many, many years as a union Steamfitter, after serving 5 long years of apprenticeship. I may not know much about a lot of things, but I know this stuff.

My garage (and everything in it) is bone dry at all times. Heated to 70 degrees, even when the temps outside are sub-zero (which has been quite often thus far this winter). I heat it with a simple 25,000 btu gas-fired infrared heater. Non vented. You can walk barefoot in there, as the floor is one of the objects heated by the radiant rays.

[Dakota]

  I'm just an old farmer but I do know that one of the products of combustion is water.  If it's not vented it remains in the building where it was produced.  I have several non vented heaters and get no condensation on any surfaces because they remain heated.  Condensation comes about when the air is cooled and can no longer hold as much water as it did previously, as the amount of water vapor the air can hold is directly related to the temperature of the air,  so the water is condensed out.  In a continuously heated environment the air should not cool enough anywhere to force the water to condense out of it-such as if you kept your garage constantly heated.

[PoorUB]

Any portable heater adds water vapor to the soce.

Unfortunately, that is untrue. Use some form of radiant heat and you'll have no problems. Radiant heat heats objects, which in turn heat the air around them.

Well I should clarify, any portable, or unvented fossil fuel heater adds water vapor to the space.

[PoorUB]

Heating (or removing heat) from air does not alter, can not alter the amount of moisture in the air. What is altered is relative humidity. I spent many, many years as a union Steamfitter, after serving 5 long years of apprenticeship. I may not know much about a lot of things, but I know this stuff.

My garage (and everything in it) is bone dry at all times. Heated to 70 degrees, even when the temps outside are sub-zero (which has been quite often thus far this winter). I heat it with a simple 25,000 btu gas-fired infrared heater. Non vented. You can walk barefoot in there, as the floor is one of the objects heated by the radiant rays.

Trust me, your unvented infrared heater adds water vapor into the space, a by product of burning a fossil fuel, natural gas, LP, kerosene, diesel fuel, they all do it. Some worse than others.
I also have some experiance, as a commercial HVAC tech.

[DalemanUK]

I use a portable dehumidifier in my unheated heated garage during autumn and winter - on a timer so it only comes on during daylight hours when temps are usually high enough to let it do it's job. Doesn't do much when temps are below 35F.

It has a continuous drain to outside and you'd be amazed how much water is pulled out when temps get a good bit above freezing.

When I occasionally work in there in winter I have 5kw worth of electric fan heaters running which produce no extra moisture.

[Big Dan]

Poor,
You're failing to recognize 2 things here, or you're wanting to pick nits that are of no use to the original poster.

First: If this thing is creating any vapor at all, it isn't enough to raise the relative humidity enough to cause condensation.

Second: If I do shut it down for a day and let everything get down to outside temp, then fire it up and heat the space, there will still be no condensation. None. Zero. Won't happen. Can't happen. Absolute laws of physics. The objects get heated first, then they in turn heat the air. Airborne water vapor will not condense on an object that is warmer than the surrounding air. Period.

If Buckwheat uses radiant heat in his barn, condensation will become a non-issue. Guranteed. Believe it, don't believe it, matters not to me. 

[FLH]

The fumes from a kerosene heater will make you sick in about 10 minutes. I can't stand em.
The best heat for a garage is in the floor radiant. A little boiler in a small attached shed, and pex tubing in the slab. that way there, you keep the combustion away from combustibles that build up in a garage, and the heat is like no other, nice and even.

[cheetah]

I use an old furnace removed from a home by a heating and air contractor.
It was given to me, but I am sure you could getone for little or nothing from one of the contractors.
Works good. Just keep the thermostat low when you are not working in there.
Just make sure the combustion chamber does not have a hole in it to allow carbon monaxide to escape.
C

[Tollbooth]

 This is an old problem for us garage/barn motor macs. Before you buy a kero heater because it is cheap, know the facts.
They stink like heck.
If you put a used house furnace in the barn, find out the codes for your area. Here in IL. a furnace on the floor must have a barrier in front of it. Hanging furnaces are the best way to go. Floor space is valuable. Get 70,000 btu or bigger. The smaller units take a lot longer to make it comfortable. Besides the cost is only a few bucks more.
All this is good but don't put a furnace in the barn without a permit!!!!!!!
If there is ever a fire, your insurance company won't cover your losses. They will blame the illegally installed furnace. (The claim dept's job is to find a way NOT to pay claims.
I did a hanging furnace with a perfect install. When the village inspector did the final inspection He made me put a double thickness of dry wall on the ceiling above the unit. He said it won't pass inspection without it. Then it passed.
The feeling that I am covered if something goes wrong is great.
Years ago we would get a old fuel oil furnace, run a hose into a 5 gal container of fuel oil and take a pane of glass out of a window to run the exhaust out. It's really not safe. TB

[Dakota]

Poor,
You're failing to recognize 2 things here, or you're wanting to pick nits that are of no use to the original poster.

First: If this thing is creating any vapor at all, it isn't enough to raise the relative humidity enough to cause condensation.

Second: If I do shut it down for a day and let everything get down to outside temp, then fire it up and heat the space, there will still be no condensation. None. Zero. Won't happen. Can't happen. Absolute laws of physics. The objects get heated first, then they in turn heat the air. Airborne water vapor will not condense on an object that is warmer than the surrounding air. Period.

If Buckwheat uses radiant heat in his barn, condensation will become a non-issue. Guranteed. Believe it, don't believe it, matters not to me. 

  Big Dan:   I think you are misreading what PoorUB and I are saying.  We're just saying that any time you burn a fossil fuel (hydrocarbons) water is produced.  We are NOT saying that condensation will occur.  You are correct that condensation is controlled by the temperature of the air and the physical objects that you are heating.  I'm sure that infared heaters, by heating the objects, should eliminate water condensing on them.  But the fact remains that those heaters still produce water and it is added to the air.  Just trying to clear the air here.

[busdriver]

I cover the bike with a couple of bed sheets and place a drop light on the concrete floor under the bike. The other day when the temperature went from way below freezing to sixty degrees everything was dripping in my garage even the wood rafters.   But the bike was dry.

[08blackstreetglide]

Some interesting opinions on this subject. So here's mine.   We live in Indiana, and we heat our bike garage with a 18,000 B.T.U ventless  LP heater.  Just a simple wall mount. We also bought a dehumidifier because we were also afraid of moisture, but we have only had to use it 2 or 3 times in the spring, over a 5 year period. We usually keep it around 55 degrees. If we want to work on the bikes, or just hang out and drink beer we crank it up to about 70.

[Dakota]

Where do you live in Indiana Blackstreet? I'm near Richmond.   I think the key here is that you keep it heated all the time so you don't have any cold surfaces for the moisture to condense on unless it warms up really fast with a lot of moisture in the air---like we have in Indiana some days.  I've actually seen clouds of moisture in my closed up (non heated) tool sheds on those days when it's been really cold and then we get a warm blast with a lot of moisture in the air.

[08blackstreetglide]

Dakota  Live in Spiceland. Small town about 6 miles south of New Castle. Visit the Harley shop in Richmond sometimes. Go to the Country Ribeye over there too. Hang out at Flatlanders in Hagerstown alot.

[Dakota]

Small world. My wife's from Spiceland.

[NETacomaFatboy]

http://www.clickscarcover.com/motocover.html

[Big_Bulky_RK]

I saw this post earlier today and thought alittle about it and thought I'd throw my 2 cents in.  I had the issues with condensation as well.  I added a room in the barn using R19 insulation in the ceiling, R13 in the walls, sealed the floor and added furring strips with dense foam covered with 3/4 inch tounge and groove plywood. One thing lead to another and it ended up being a finished room.  I heat this room 10 x 14 with a electric-oil space heater at about 55 degrees (lowest setting) for about $8 a month (less than $100 per year) here in Michigan. We found that we can get three baggers in this room and only heat the rest of the barn with the woodburner the days we get together.  No condensation, no dust, love it.

Happy New Year,  and the best of riding to all.  Glen

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[rossl]

I've been looking at heaters in harbor frieght.  They have blue flame and quartz heaters.  The quartz looks a little safer, but does it work as well?  I don't understand how it would heat objects and NOT the air.

[willymax4]

i insulated and sheetrocked my 24x24 garage. r13 in the walls and r25 in the ceiling, then hung a 75000 btu modine unit heater from the ceiling vented thru the roof.
i maintain 45 f when not using it and bump it to 70f which takes about 30 minutes at a -20 f outside temp.
no moisture problems any more and it costs about $10.00 a month to keep it heated. i guess i could shut it down all together and heat it when i'm in there but if the slab cools to outside temp, i'll never get it warm again till spring.
sure is nice to work in a warm environment.

[PoorUB]

I saw this post earlier today and thought alittle about it and thought I'd throw my 2 cents in.  I had the issues with condensation as well.  I added a room in the barn using R19 insulation in the ceiling, R13 in the walls, sealed the floor and added furring strips with dense foam covered with 3/4 inch tounge and groove plywood. One thing lead to another and it ended up being a finished room.  I heat this room 10 x 14 with a electric-oil space heater at about 55 degrees (lowest setting) for about $8 a month (less than $100 per year) here in Michigan. We found that we can get three baggers in this room and only heat the rest of the barn with the woodburner the days we get together.  No condensation, no dust, love it.

Happy New Year,  and the best of riding to all.  Glen

Good point! Most of us do not need to heat the whole garage, just a small room closed off would suffice for a heated work are. Properly insulated and finished it takes little power to keep the room warm. A small electric baseboard heater would be plenty for most.

I heat my 24x36 foot garage and it gets expensive here in North Dakota, but then the missus likes her warm car in the mornings! If I heat the garage to 65-70F it costs as much as my house. If I run it at 55F it probably heats for $1 a day on the average. Those January bills when I have been keeping the temps up to 65F or better can be killers! $3 a day is my guess when I look at my bill. May garage is not insulated as well as it could be, cheap overhead door, and only 8" batts in the ceiling as the attic has a floor over all of it. I did not build it, I bought the property with it, but i sure would do things differantly if I built it myself.

[Dakota]

i insulated and sheetrocked my 24x24 garage. r13 in the walls and r25 in the ceiling, then hung a 75000 btu modine unit heater from the ceiling vented thru the roof.
i maintain 45 f when not using it and bump it to 70f which takes about 30 minutes at a -20 f outside temp.
no moisture problems any more and it costs about $10.00 a month to keep it heated. i guess i could shut it down all together and heat it when i'm in there but if the slab cools to outside temp, i'll never get it warm again till spring.
sure is nice to work in a warm environment.

  I've got a similar setup to yours.  You're right, you need to keep it fairly warm or you'll never get it warmed up when you want to use it.  Plus it's nice to get in a warm vehicle when you want to go somewhere in the winter (or my wife to work)

[Phu Cat]

If you don't vent the heater to the outside the H2O produced is left inside the building. That's why you get moisture collecting on cold surfaces,   That doesn't explain the ice that formed in your freezer before they were self-defrosting.  The moisture on a cold surface mostly comes from the existing moisture in the air.  Only a small amount of moisture is produced by combustion.  How much moisture is created in your engine by combustion?

PC

[05RK1]

It's called dew point.  It does not matter what the heating or cooling mechanism is when you reach the dew point it will condensate.  I would be more concerned about venting the byproducts of your fuel

[PoorUB]

How much moisture is created in your engine by combustion?

PC

More than you may believe! We don't see it much because the water condenses in the exhaust, and lays in the muffler until you ride away. As the exhaust warms up, the moisture can not condense in the pipes as they are too hot, and is expelled as steam. Start your bike once, run it for just a few seconds, put you hand behind the muffler and rev the engine. Depending on what you have for exhaust your hand may come back wet, maybe dripping with moisture.

As for using a ventless infrared heater, sure the items right under the heater get warmed first, and avoid condensation, but what about other items in the shop, tools for instance. I have been in shops using portable heaters and seen condensation forming on vehicles, and tools not in line with the heat.

[northbrun]

regardless of what type of heat you decide on keep in mind 1 thing first. Massachusetts code (all i know) require any flame fired heat source be 48" above the floor. gas fumes being heaver than air will sink. as an example, I use a kero space heater which is up on a shelf i mounted on a wall. I placed a box type window fan up about 6" below the celing blowing down towards the floor about 18" in front of the hot end of the heater. This pushes the heat down to where i am working. 24x36' stone garage with a few "drafts" keeps it about 45 deg above outside temp ..0deg. outside.....55 inside takes about 15 to 20 min to warm up. uses about 3.5 gal of kero a day..

[texaskatfish]

Summer's comin BABY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[willymax4]

dang northbrun, you're spending about 400 clams a month for heat?
kero in your area is going for $3.85 gal. might make better since to run nat. gas and hang a unit heater thus satifying the building codes, saving fuel costs and be done with any fumes. an installation like this will pay for itself in about one heating season.
jussayin

[Mickster]

I have an insulated 12 by 12 building...
I cover the Ultra with cotton sheets and put an oil filled heater under the blankets on its lowest setting.
Keeps the small shed 35 degrees and a thermometer on the seat says it's 72 degrees.
Oil filled heaters have no fire potential as the element is submerged in oil.
It's been working great for the past ten winters...and NO condensation.
I heat the main garage, insulated with corn/wood pellets and push the Ultra in the garage when I want to do maintenance.
Stay warm boys, we're almost half way through winter...
Mickster

[Big Dan]

Poor,
There is no condensation anywhere in my garage; not even in the darkest, most remote corner. Radiant rays reflect, just like light. The area & items directly under/in-front-of the heater are indeed the warmest, but it's nice in the entire garage.

[northbrun]

dang northbrun, you're spending about 400 clams a month for heat?
kero in your area is going for $3.85 gal. might make better since to run nat. gas and hang a unit heater thus satifying the building codes, saving fuel costs and be done with any fumes. an installation like this will pay for itself in about one heating season.
jussayin

well maybe i missed something here... given that the question was about condensation on a cold bike, I assumed that the question was about heating the building intermittently.. i spend about $40 a month and spend a fair amount of time on my hobbies..