WHAT'S IT WORTH TO YA??

[TXP]

Well we already know some of the competition is going down this road. Tuners will choose a product, even if that product does not perform as well, if it is more profitable. TTS is the undisputed leader as far as I am concerned on several fronts. TL for example has allowed a lot of guys whose knowledge level is marginal at best to make a good showing on the dyno. A PC doesn't give you anywhere near the adjustability of TTS, so one can get by without delving into the whole "how it really works" thing. With a tuning assist product at a reasonable price, why would any tuner who takes the time to learn the difference between TTS and the competition not want this product. Other than the obvious. It all boils down to cubic $$$$. I hope this turns out to be more practical than it appears on the surface.
It may turn out that just like buying a dyno is part of the cost for a shop that wants to get into the tuning game, that a real time tuning product is part of the cost to a manufacturer who wants to build or a hold a significant presence in the marketplace.

[Don D]

I think if TTS is going to remain a dominant product they may need to join the crowd on the dyno side rather than just the customer side. Anything they can do to offer a comprehensive integrated solution and do that better than the competition will put them in front. Right now a live tuning product would satisfy that need and put TTS ahead of PC tuning link. This live solution would have to be user friendly and save time. Currently a proper SERT or TTS tune is time consuming and very labor intensive, the PC tuning link is easy. A marriage of the two would be ideal and throw in the ability to interface the torque module so many have recently purchased and tie in Delphi ion sensing information with the torque. Now we have a great product. I don't want much do I?
Consider it a necessary marketing / R&D move rather than an optional product offering. Product silos are not going to be the best solution in the future as I see it.

[Buglet]

   Doesn't the S&S VFI modules, you can do live tuning and you can have closed loop plus you can also have IST ING.

[whittlebeast]

Would it help the Vtune display would flash red on any cell that was generating detonation?   Then when you jump to the timing page, highlight the MAP-RPM cells that were the issue.

The huge pink elephant in the room is that none of this is legal for a shop to do on a street driven bike. 

[wurk_truk]

The huge pink elephant in the room is that none of this is legal for a shop to do on a street driven bike.

While this is TRUE, varying states enforce this very differently.  I feel MOCO shops cannot do this legally, no more than a GM dealer could.  But an Indy shop, especially in the midwest?  Get a disclaimer from the owner and the shop should be OK.

The profit should NOT be thought of in THIS product... but locking folks into the IDEA of MT is 'the best' is where the payoff is at.  WIth MT being decently differentiated from different products.... a Live MT would be enough to replace PC live for sure.  The 'profit' would be in units moved world wide with MT Live having a 'halo' effect.... NOT in MT Live itself.  Right now... TTS has been customer oriented to get the product OUT THE DOOR.  But... in all reality... telling tuners to V-Tune on a dyno isn't whats happening.  WE can see it here, right in our own forum.   But?  Something like MTLive?  Well now... THAT would move quite a few folks into the TTS camp for sure.  Isn't MT about being the 'best tuner product'?  WHat better to cement that idea with customers who v-tune than being able to say ," if you buy our product and simply cannot make V-Tune function to one's liking... well... you COULD always send your bike to one of many many tuners who CAN spiff it right up".

DJ locking up the world for awhile with PC; PCIII, and PV5.  It should be time for a REAL tuner to make the move.... BEFORE DJ does it with DV.

I feel there will be a 'window' of opportunity here for Steve.  Right now?  Those that know... know that MT is a superior product with continual development.  bUT..... if DJ moves ahead with DV Live, then the moment could be lost.  ALL those DJ tuners would stay within the fold.

[whittlebeast]

Question for the pro tunes that use TTS.....

Are you using an adjustable load dyno and allowing vtune to develop the fuel base maps?

What is the part you find so time consuming?  Is it the timing side of the tune?

I don't tune for a living and most of the tunes I get involved with are so far off the beaten path that most of the owners have no idea where to even start.  Things like 2 stroke jetskis and twin tubo 1300 hp streetcars.  My kid wants me to hang a set of 8 injector ITB throttle bodies on the side of carbed 9000 RPM CRX this spring.  Here we go again....  He hates to loose.

see Autocross CRX

AW

[FLTRI]

Question for the pro tunes that use TTS.....

Are you using an adjustable load dyno and allowing vtune to develop the fuel base maps?

Absolutely! Without a load control dyno it reverts back to guessing.

What is the part you find so time consuming?

Shutting off the bike, reloading the calibration, firing the bike back up, normalizing temps, retesting to verify results.

Is it the timing side of the tune?

Depends on build and if there is historically successful base timing maps for those builds.

I have only one opinion:
Ain't nothin' like live tuning!!

I'm sure when Steve gets back from Daytona he'll offer his input from our comments.
Keep 'em comin'!!.

[whittlebeast]

So it all comes down to the ability to do a fairly good tune with a PCx quickly (as you can tune on the fly) as opposed to the ability to do a better tune with a TTS/SEPST but you have trouble making money doing it.  Bummer.

What it sounds like you need is a device that plugs into the wire harness and runs the motor from a laptop that watches the dyno figuring out what this motor really wants at each point in the map and then feeds that data into the ECU as the new base tune.

That would be fun to develop.

AW

[FLTRI]

So it all comes down to the ability to do a fairly good tune with a PCx quickly (as you can tune on the fly) as opposed to the ability to do a better tune with a TTS/SEPST but you have trouble making money doing it.  Bummer.

IMO it all comes down to using the best tool to get the best results.
IMO that's TTS. I do 1 P/C to 10 TTS/ST dynos. We only offer for sale TTS. I also use S/T from dealers.
Making money? What's that? I do this for the smiles.

What it sounds like you need is a device that plugs into the wire harness and runs the motor from a laptop that watches the dyno figuring out what this motor really wants at each point in the map and then feeds that data into the ECU as the new base tune.
That would be fun to develop.

When you figger that out you'll be able to sell it for BIG $$$ to all the high dollar race teams and engine builders.
I'll be your rep.
Bob

[hrdtail78]

Question for the pro tunes that use TTS.....

Are you using an adjustable load dyno and allowing vtune to develop the fuel base maps?

What is the part you find so time consuming?  Is it the timing side of the tune?

It less time consuming to get repeatable results from live tuning.  It's not so much the actual time.  It is what you are spending the time on.  Shutting down after collecting vtune data and running vtune isn't the problem.  It's the time it takes in between small changes to get the bike back to the same condition it was before so you have good data to compare with.  So a heatsoaked engine is a good reference point.  A tool like live tuning is ideal for this.  Conditions aren't going to change while you take a couple of seconds to do a few mouse clicks.

Things like this will just make a TTS a better tuning product.  A product that already gives you a lot of control over the ECM.  More than anything else out there.  Including the vision hype.  Now Steve is going to give us even more by live tuning and helping us get more and better repeatable results.  It's going to go this way eventually.  People are already using 2 system to get these results.  If I had Steve's ear I tell him.  When your winning, you don't let people pass you.

[whittlebeast]

These are all great testimonials that justify how I tend to tune.  I do initial setup on the dyno to get in the ballpark.  Then I work off data logs from the vehicle in the heat of battle.  If the car is a street car then there is where I take data.  If the car is a race car then data log on the track.  High resolution GPS, accelerometers and the ECU.  You would not believe how may times I have found geez driven fuel starvation issues, high intake temps coming up on lap 7, air starvation in the air filter at high velocity and turbos doing strange spikes on shifts causing all sorts of issues.  None of this stuff can be found on a dyno.

Quick example from the Harley world.  A Sportster has a huge lean spot when the fuel light comes up that only shows up in first gear.  I found it in a data log.  Many baggers with stock style air cleaners routinely get IATs in the 160F range when on the road even on the roll.

For me it is all about textbook linear throttle control all the way from start up thru absolute violent acceleration any time and every time.

AW

[strokerjlk]

Honestly the whole idea of paying a yearly subscription for this(or the dynojet stuff) would be a major turnoff for some of us, take into consideration that right now we have blizzard conditions and an overall short riding season anyway while some of you are in sunny California with at least double the riding season and a steady workload. The winter tuning around here is spotty at best, once we hit April though I can't keep up. 2500 bucks? for that, keep it, with the present data logging the shutdown and reflash are a minor inconvenience anyway. One time buy with online updates will make it easier to make the choice to purchase or not. I would also question if this were made available would it support SERT, SEST, or Direct link stuff as well as TTS since they all reflash the same basic ecm tables.  What would I pay for a one time buy? since I have no idea of the cost Steve would have in hardware much less the time he spent creating a software interface it's hardly fair to hazzard a guess. Not suggesting he give an unlimited number of keys with purchase but maybe a setup that worked with only that hardware (much like the direct link thumbdrive keys) at a lower cost to dyno owners. Maybe he should run some numbers by us here first for us to chew on. I still think it's a great idea and for those of you doing this full time with steady work it would be a no brainer.

Bob
Have you had a chance to use the auto tune function , with your techno research system yet?

[wurk_truk]

 

Bob, Did you receive your torque cell crap yet?

Jim, would YOU like a live tuning aid?  Even if Steve does make it?

[strokerjlk]

Jim, would YOU like a live tuning aid?  Even if Steve does make it?

If it dosent require someone riding bitch,pushing keys on the laptop while I ride around hitting small grades   
would I like it? sure . will I pay any kind of subscription fee. No.

been to Farm Aid but never Live Aid.

[BVHOG]

Honestly the whole idea of paying a yearly subscription for this(or the dynojet stuff) would be a major turnoff for some of us, take into consideration that right now we have blizzard conditions and an overall short riding season anyway while some of you are in sunny California with at least double the riding season and a steady workload. The winter tuning around here is spotty at best, once we hit April though I can't keep up. 2500 bucks? for that, keep it, with the present data logging the shutdown and reflash are a minor inconvenience anyway. One time buy with online updates will make it easier to make the choice to purchase or not. I would also question if this were made available would it support SERT, SEST, or Direct link stuff as well as TTS since they all reflash the same basic ecm tables.  What would I pay for a one time buy? since I have no idea of the cost Steve would have in hardware much less the time he spent creating a software interface it's hardly fair to hazzard a guess. Not suggesting he give an unlimited number of keys with purchase but maybe a setup that worked with only that hardware (much like the direct link thumbdrive keys) at a lower cost to dyno owners. Maybe he should run some numbers by us here first for us to chew on. I still think it's a great idea and for those of you doing this full time with steady work it would be a no brainer.

Bob
Have you had a chance to use the auto tune function , with your techno research system yet?

Have not, finally have all the hardware and the DTT stuff wired in, it's just a matter now of getting a usb extension cord and hooking up 3 other wires, and of course the time to do this and actually use it with the winter from hell we have been having here.

[FLTRI]

Quick example from the Harley world.  A Sportster has a huge lean spot when the fuel light comes up that only shows up in first gear.  I found it in a data log.

How did you address that?

Many baggers with stock style air cleaners routinely get IATs in the 160F range when on the road even on the roll.

...and this?

For me it is all about textbook linear throttle control all the way from start up thru absolute violent acceleration any time and every time.

Shouldn't that be the goal for every tuner?   I know it is with the tuners I know. 
Bob

AW
[/quote]

[whittlebeast]

The lean spot in first gear was caused by fuel starvation  in the fuel tank design.  It showed up once you start getting a good throttle response and good acceleration.  The solution is always run with more than 1/2 tank of fuel.  Below that level and you start getting fuel starvation issues.

Re IATs.  On the Sporty I went to a Heavy Breather to get air that was not preheated by the exhaust and the engine cooling fins.  On the bagger we designed a remote mounted air cleaner that was located in the front lower body work and then designed a air intake tube that went from the throttle body down to the remote filter.  Air is now pulled from in front of the bodywork.  IATs dropped like 70 degrees, detonation issues were far better.

Here is 2 logs off my Sporty.  On the left is stock AC and on the right is Heavy Breather.

http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/IatControl.jpg

Any tuner that does not test for these sort of basic concepts in EFI tuning should be fired on the spot.

AW

[FLTRI]

Any tuner that does not test for these sort of basic concepts in EFI tuning should be fired on the spot.

AW

IME most everyone is aware of intake air temps issues on these bikes.

Maybe this is why there are so many bikes running around with exposed air filters.

We designed and deveoped a fiberglass intake similar to your hose idea. Worked very well and lowered intake air temps while traveling down the road, but so did most open filters...just not as much.

That said the IAT will grow to astronomical numbers when the bike is sitting still.
TB heat soak is the issue. Other than adding a fan directed to the T/B, not sure how to keep it cool.

Also, we didn't find the appearance of the device acceptable to the HD dresser owners.

Testing and learning is one thing, but changing the design and appearance of one's pride and joy/jewelry/personal statement is a bit different animal.

Gotta keep in mind this is not a race track where form follows funtion.
This only applies to Harleys IF it also looks cool.
Bob


PS - Heavy Breather is what we've reccomended for for all Harleys for better IAT and best performance since they were introduced a couple years ago. The other forward-facing intakes not so good.

[whittlebeast]

That said the IAT will grow to astronomical numbers when the bike is sitting still.
TB heat soak is the issue. Other than adding a fan directed to the T/B, not sure how to keep it cool.

Also, we didn't find the appearance of the device acceptable to the HD dresser owners.

Testing and learning is one thing, but changing the design and appearance of one's pride and joy/jewelry/personal statement is a bit different animal.

Gotta keep in mind this is not a race track where form follows funtion.
This only applies to Harleys IF it also looks cool.

Do you inform the owner that his pride and joy part has raised this issue and the only option you have as a tuner is flood the motor with fuel and yank timing to protect the motor from detonation.  And tell him that you have to leave 20 ft-lbs of torque on the table just to work around this thing that only shows up when he rides it on the street?  On the dyno, with this great big fan on this thing, it has this really great dyno readout that he can show his friends?

30 years of racing is tough on a guy....

AW

[FLTRI]

Do you inform the owner that his pride and joy part has raised this issue and the only option you have as a tuner is flood the motor with fuel and yank timing to protect the motor from detonation.

I have never found flooding a street engine with fuel works best for the owner. 25-30 mpg is not acceptable for most street Harley riders.
Also find it is better to give up a bit of compression for fuel tollerance rather than build high compression engines that hate our CA pump gas especially on hot days...only to have to retard timing for detonation.

And tell him that you have to leave 20 ft-lbs of torque on the table just to work around this thing that only shows up when he rides it on the street?

I do not tell the customer, I show it to him, right on the dyno by adjusting intake air temp and by back to back A/C cover on and off.

30 years of racing is tough on a guy....

Only rough for the first few years working with the public to learn what is important and what is not.
Just remember function follows form for 99% Harley riders, which is OK too, right?
Bob

[BVHOG]

So what's the verdict on this? the owner is back from vacation, maybe some more insight to see if this is even  possible or feasible.

[TXP]

Has this thread died? Any chance of seeing product development go forward on this? Would be great to have, but I have no idea how much it would cost to develop and deploy. Not my end of it. What's your take Bob? I hope Steve will chime in.

[HD/Wrench]

YEP dead as a stone.  But one thing that was not talked about was the cost to tune the bikes. I had my LS engine tuned , with a Mefi ECM. That ecm is a live tune system. However the time to tune it was about 4.5 hours cost to tune that 1000.00.  If the cost of the tuning systems go up, then the cost of the tune would have to increase as well. 

[hrdtail78]

YEP dead as a stone.  But one thing that was not talked about was the cost to tune the bikes. I had my LS engine tuned , with a Mefi ECM. That ecm is a live tune system. However the time to tune it was about 4.5 hours cost to tune that 1000.00.  If the cost of the tuning systems go up, then the cost of the tune would have to increase as well. 

I would like bike tuning to be more in line with auto tuning myself.  Seems we are in line or more with everything besides tuning.

[wurk_truk]

  If the cost of the tuning systems go up, then the cost of the tune would have to increase as well. 

OK... lets get a bit REAL here.  A WHOLE lot of tuners, v-tune on a dyno anymore.  Did ANYBODY give better prices because the tuning process went from 6-8 hrs down to 1-2 hrs?  Nope.  Also... sure, a 'live' tuning aid would cost... but it WOULD save TIME spent on tuning... especially things like steady state tuning.  Would ANYONE pass the labor saved back to the customer?  Nope.  So... one must figure all hours spent and all investments made to determine pricing, so the price might not rise as much as one would think.

Also...  I think TTS should offer this FREE.  If SC wants to REALLY penetrate the dyno tuner market even further... this should be free.  SC has already increased the 'power' of MT for the dyno market since introduction.  It is NOT for the DIY that he made MT8s and EGRs and get the bike closer to 100%map... THAT was for dyno tuners using his product, right?  I'm a 'contrarian' for sure! 

Right now... SC has a good market penetration with DIYers.  He has a decent penetration of the Dyno market too... especially anymore when a dyno operator can SEE how v-tuning is easier and more modern that tuning PCs.  DJ sold a bazillion dynos to guys that STILL tune PCs, etc.  Getting a larger piece of THAT market would be a very good thing, business wise for SC. Well... TTS needs to beat DJ at their own game.  Doing something different with LIVE tuning would also bring the last bastion of tuners into the fold... the 'old skool' steady state tuners.

The DIY market is really funny.  Out with the old and in with the new is an age old process.  I see Brians thingamajig gaining traction all over different forums lately (goes to what Jason just stated).  The time should be NOW for SC to start locking up the tuner side of the business, as we are all pretty much agreed that MT is the best it gets for right now, right? 

Time WILL march on......